Night Vision Opinions on helmet mounted thermal

[Frog05]

Looking into running an IR-Patrol on a helmet mount next year. What are your opinions on helmet mounted vs handheld.
I know several of you guys run patrols and skeets, do you have any issues running them? I’m just trying to streamline my gear and make our movements easier. Thanks

 

[wigwamitus]

Haha, you probably don't want my opinion ... but I'll try to be sort of brief ...

==
I've been running helmet mounted thermal side by side with pvs-14 for just over three years now.
Started with the ODIN. Ran that side by side with PVS-14 for 2 years. I did have a UNV battery pack for IRD and it happened to work with the ODIN and so it went on the helmet. That gave me all night capability with the ODIN on my head.

==
In early 2017, I got a COTI, which I wore on the PVS-14 side. This cause me to switch the thermal to the left eye.

==
Then in early 2018 I finally got a patrol. Oh my, I kicked myself for not getting one 2 years earlier ... I got some bad data from advisors ...

==
And a couple of months later, I got a skeet, which is pretty much interchangeable with the patrol.

==

So I had been "dreaming" about head mounted, hands free scanning while moving ever since getting my first thermal in April 2014. I could hold it up ... and even walk slowly with it ... but it took a hand. Having it on my head would give me my hand back !
I got the q-14 in 2015 thinking it would do it. But it didn't. I never could mount it side by side with a pvs-14. So it spent most of its time with me on the .22lr night ratter and it was very successful in that role. The ODIN was the first successful head mounted thermal for me and I LOVED it. Hands free scanning while walking or while rolling on the 4-wheeler. And the PVS-14 up there to help with navigation. And the pair of them make me feel really safe about driving at day time speeds. If one is struggling to see, the other one works fine.
I know this doesn't work for everyone. All I can say it that it works fine for me.
And no, the images are mostly not "merged". If you stand still and fiddle, you can make them line up. but in general they do not. If I want to force myself to see through one or the other, I can just close one eye. That's hands free also ! I can't turn on/off the COTI with no hands !!!
The COTI provide ability to shoot with the carbine mounted laser, what only the thermal can see but the 14 cannot. That's an edge case, but when going after rats, coons or opossum in bushes, it helps.

The Skeet has an ir-laser pointer and a headups azimuth indicator. If I am with a team, I want the skeet. My skeet is an "L" a 320, but it is amazing that the patrol image is only about 20% to 10% better, depending on conditions. The skeet is the best 320 I've ever seen, hands down. The skeet is a bit smaller and lighter, and that matters in the house, but out side, I don't think about the gear, I think about what I am doing. I do not have a battery pack for the Skeet, but the same one that works for the ODIN works for the Patrol and provides more than all night capability.

I think having a battery pack makes using them easier. I've never used battery packs for any of the rifle mounted thermals. But I like having one for the head mounted thermal, then I don't have to think about it. I'm trying to make up some for the skeet and the coti, but not done with that yet.

I mostly just like having hands free scanning while moving ... that's the big plus for me for head mounted thermal ...

 

[Frog05]

I’m in the same boat you were 4 years ago lol. It’s a total hassle for movements in and out of stands and cutting distance to dogs to constantly be setting the gun/tripod down to check if they are still there. Or having to bring the handheld up to my eye and trying to walk and carry all of my crap and scan at the same time.
Do you have any issues with eye fatigue, headaches or anything of that sort with running it constantly over the same eye?

 

[wigwamitus]

headaches ... I had two sorts of issues with headaches .. but I resolved both of those before I got the thermal on my head.
01 - Tensioning of the helmet.
Balancing the weight on the front with the counter-weight on the back is CRITICAL. If you do not do this, then helmet tensioning system has a LOT of stress on it and that gets transmitted to your head. Make the counterweight equal the front weight and the stress goes POOF and that eliminates headache source #1.
02 - Too much brightness on the thermal
When I was first going out with my apollo and holding it up to one eye with the 14 on the other eye ... the thermal was way brighter than the 14 and that brightness discrepancy caused headache because the eyes were continually trying to balance the brightness. Adding a filter (I have 1 amber glass and 2 purple glass) to the rear of the thermals reduces this brightness and headaches. Just turning down the brightness does also. I suspect 97% of thermal users run their thermals with too much brightness and have headaches. If you're going to spend a lot of time looking thru your thermals, turn down the danged brightness ! The trijicon's have an auto brightness adjust. I don't use it. But you can try it. I turn the brightness up and down all night long, adjusting the image.

And then there was soreness in my neck muscles. I also fixed that before I put thermals up there.
01b - Weight of Helmet.
When I first started going out with 2xPVS-14s in my dual mount (again before I got Apollo) not only did my head hurt, but my neck muscles hurt as well. My neck muscles just were NOT used to having 8-10 pounds up there. I just kept going out. Eventually my neck muscles weren't sore any more. I didn't notice when they stopped being sore, but they did.


03 - Looking thru optics for extended periods ...
When I go out with a team member, during some periods one guy will lay down on his pack (not take it off just sit down and lean back on his pack) and rest, while the other is up on the gun on the tripod swiveling around. That gives you some relief from looking thru the optics ...
When I am out by myself, If I've just moved into a new position, I figure I made some noise and the yotes heard me and moved off. So after I set up ... I take a 10-15 min power nap. Time not looking thru optics.
I also switch back and forth between panning with the gun and using helmet mouted thermal. I leave the gun thermal on ... but scan with helmet mounted thermal (and 14) as easier on the eyes than bending over and looking thru magnified optics.

Doing that sort of thing ... even during the day time ... will relieve some of the eye strain ... but it is natural to have some eye strain when looking thru magnified optics. You just have to take counter-measures.

==
Those are my main learnings

• balance the weight on the helmet
• train up your neck muscles
• turn down the brightness on the thermals ... get it closer to the 14 ... put a good quality glass filter on the back.
• swap off looking thru your optics to give your eyes a break.

 

[Frog05]

Are you running the Integrated Component’s D-14? If so, how would you compare this to other dual bridges? I eventually would like to run a patrol on one eye and a 14 on the other.

 

[wigwamitus]

Yes, I have two of the IC bridge. We (Pete, Jay, Joe, others) were really hopeful the vaunted and long awaited "Universal Bridge" would be the bees knees ... but we got too many reports about "gets wobbly with use" ... so we are back to recommending the olde IC bridge ... I have one that is 5 years olde and I've used it a LOT and it still works fine. My new one is a year old.
As to mounts, I have the Older Norotos Mount and the newer Norotos LO STO ... and they both work for the Patrol (I just retested with Patrol and 14 on both last night).

 

[Frog05]

That being said, why is the IC/ Norotos combo a preferred option over the Wilcox option that Trijicon offers?

 

[wigwamitus]

In a word, "wobble". Trying to avoid wobble.

 

[Frog05]

Copy that. Now tell me your theory about which eye gets which optic for you (in a pvs14/thermal combo).
I was thinking about thermal on non-dominant and 14 on dominant eye. In theory I can flip up the 14 to get on the magnified optic while still being able to pop my head up off of the gun to do a quick scan around if we have multiple dogs coming in.

 

[wigwamitus]

... thinking about thermal on non-dominant and 14 on dominant ...

This is a good theory ... but there are other factors as well ...

Such as, where are the NOD controls and how can I easily manipulate them ??

To make it easier ... which is your dominant eye ?? (for me it is right eye)

 

[Frog05]

Is it possible to be cross eye dominant?? Lol. I shoot a rifle and shotgun left handed/left eyed but I shoot pistol right handed/right eye ??‍ I can shoot a rifle right handed/right eye but lefty just feels more natural

 

[SkyScrapin]

Joe, have you tested the RQE bridge system? I have not, but I hear it’s a fantastic solution that uses the dive tail with rock solid lock up.

 

[wigwamitus]

I have heard of "cross eye dominant" but I'm not an opthalmologist so I am not sure ...

==
But I have worn the thermal on both sides ... and it works on both sides ... hence the controls and the "does it fit" ... determine the side I use for a given thermal/pvs-14 combination more so than the dominance aspect. I will do some pics to explain some cases.

 

[wigwamitus]

... have you tested the RQE ...

... yes, I was calling it the "Universal Bridge" above ... and we were waiting on it literally for years ... it was going to solve all our problems ... like the "godot of NOD bridges" !!!
And out of the box it seems to .. but with extensive field use .. the wobble increases to the point of being terrible ... and has driven us back to the tried and true ic/bridge. Hopefully, there will be another version one day that addresses these issues and godot will return for another round !!!

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, this post will be able an example of fit and functional aspects I run into when trying to mount thermals and PVS-14s on head.

Here is a pic of the pvs-14 and COTI on the left eye, while the Patrol is on the right eye. Due to the COTI extending out from the 14, if the patrol is leveled in the mount, then the 14+coti are swung way out to the left (all directions are relative to the wearer of the mount, which is opposite from the viewer of the pic). If you try to look thru this setup, you will be able to see thru the patrol just fine, but the 14+coti will be high left and you will not be able to see thru them

==

Reserving the situation. Leveling the 14 + coti requires swinging the patrol out to the right.. You can see thru the 14 + coti but not the patrol.

==

Now, we are flipping the patrol and the 14 + coti around and mounting the patrol on the left eye and the 14 + coti on the right eye.

In this case, the coti extends out to the right away from the patrol and allows all NODs to be seen thru by the wearer.

There is one detail. The patrol joystick can be contacted by the screw on the interface of the 14. When I first setup the helmet like this and powered everything on the first thing that happened was I bumped the coti with my right hand and shut off the patrol

So, I thought THAT DOESN"T WORK. And I tried to reverse everything as in the first two pics above ^^ but that didn't work for the reasons discussed up there, so I came back to the 14 on the right again. By first leveling the 14 and then bring the patrol down, the screw on the 14 interface contacts the patrol on the housing below the joystick and does not shut off the patrol. So that's how I run it.

==
Point of all this is, the orientations of the NODs matter in terms of making them fit together and allowing usable access to the controls. Both the Skeet and the ODIN have different issues. All are solvable, but each combination of NODs are unique.

Having the 14 + coti on the right eye works for me as I am right eye dominant and if I need to shoot with the laser that is good. Also, If I flipout with the 14 to aim with a rifle optic, I still have the patrol ready to be used without touching it. But eye dominance did not drive the decision as to which eye to have the thermal on, the fit and function drove it.

==

And one final detail. The coti in the first pic above, cannot be flipped around 180 degrees on the 14 because it bumps in to the interface holdig the 14 to the bridge. With some goggles, like the pvs-15, the coti can be flipped around 180 degrees, but with a pvs-15 you can't wear a second longer distance thermal at the same time. Life is full of trade-offs.

 

[Frog05]

Great info Wig! So with the way you are currently running, if you need to nuc the patrol, or make any adjustments the 14 has to be flipped up to access the joystick correct?

 

[wigwamitus]

... if you need to nuc the patrol, or make any adjustments the 14 has to be flipped ...

Yes, but not flipped out all the way, just a little. With practice, you don't even think about it, you think "nuc now" and it happens ...

 

[Frog05]

10/4. Muscle memory!

Why don’t more people run a setup like this. (I know some people do) but to my inexperienced mind it’s a no brainer. Is it cost?
Lack of knowledge, that this is even a viable solution?

There aren’t many options that I know of other than the Patrol, Skeet, and the Breach which to my limited understanding isn’t even in the same class as the other two. Pulsar doesn’t have any dedicated helmet mounted options, though I have seen some d.i.y. rigs!

 

[wigwamitus]

... Why don’t more people run a setup like this ...

Almost everyone tells me I am a crazed lunatic for even trying it ... I'm surprised 100 of them haven't posted in here saying exactly that ... they usually do !!

I assume the reason is either they've tried it and hated it ... or not tried it and hate the idea ..

I wanted it to work real bad ... so I made it work for me ... I wasn't looking for issues .. I was looking for solutions ... maybe that helped ??

I have heard of one person (who I think works for UNV) who does this ... but I've never talked to him ... it would be either Rich or Tyler, but not sure which. Actually, I've talked to both of them, but never asked "Are you the other NUT in this universe?"

I don't require others to do what I do ... and I guess they've given up on trying to get me to do what they do ... fair enough. I do what works for me ... and the mixed thermal/NV helmet mounted NODs works GREAT for me and it is very "liberating" to be able to ride around on the 4-wheeler in almost any conditions and see the critters you would never see without the thermal up there. And contrary to some statements, it is actually safer with both up there. I have to go across a pipe bridge with a 15 foot drop off on one side ... and it is REAL DARK in that spot and the 14 sometimes can't see sh^t ... but the thermal can always (so far) clearly see that pipe bridge, so I can roll across it with confidence. In general, sometimes the thermal can see the ground better than the 14 and sometimes the 14 can see the ground better than the thermal (like in snow the 14 wins hands down). So having both is actually safer IMHO !!!

==
As to options ... the ones I've had on my list for several years ...

ODIN
Patrol
Q-14
COTI
Skeet

And now the Breach ...

With the Q-14 ... I could not make it work because the available mounts, at that time, meant it was too low relative to the 14 ... with the m-clips I hear the 14 can now work side by side with q-14 on the ic bridge, but I sold my q-14 after I got the ODIN. The breech is the "boson" q-14.

And I haven't tried it myself, but I've heard the breach has the same problem as in being too low. it might be fixable with the m-clips.

And correct, I've seen a couple of people who did DYO for the HD19a ... and one of them got it to work side by side with a 14. If you can machine your own mounts, the options open up.
There are other options with euro thermals, but I haven't tried any of those, nor do I know anyone who has.