Optics question

[Sean69]

Hi, I’m new to all this so please be kind lol
so I have a Ruger precision rimfire and purchased a lower end diamondback tactile. I wasn’t at all impressed and talked to vortex and they recommended the Venom. same as strike eagle without illuminated reticle. Love Amazon,I returned Diamondback and added the 200 and got Venom. What a difference. Set it all up but in long run was not at all impressed with Ruger so I purchased a Begara b14r and wow absolutely incredible. I took Venom off Ruger and mounted it on Begara on a 30 moa rail. Sighted it in at 50 ,took quite a bit of elevation to get it right but at 50 and than a 100 all seemed good. 2 weeks ago a friend invited me to a place that has a range out to 1000 yards. I was so excited because not only further distance but they have 5 or 6 obstacles and barricades to practice on, and my first Nrl22 event is coming up next month. Started at 50 than 100 than 325. Checked my StrelokPro app and it said 13 mil up for 325 well this is when my heart hit the floor, start turning elevation and ran out of elevation at 9 mil and had to hold off 4. Super disappointed in a scope of this price point and supposed quality to see this happen.
now here’s my question. I did not turn elevation down to zero when I mounted it on Begara,just left it where it was from Ruger. I called vortex and guy seemed shocked it ran out at around 250 yards but quickly changed his story and blamed the rifle. I asked him should I take out zero stop and turn back to zero and remount and he said no it will make no difference. I can’t figure out why he’d say that. In my lizard brain if I started adjusting it on Begara at say 3 mil to zero it at 50 yards and it took say 3 more all just hypothetical aren’t I loosing 3 from the start because I started there. In other words if I start from zero and it takes 3 isn’t that better than 6 the other way.
sorry for novel but just confused, should I turn it all the way back to zero and remount it and start over.
Thxs guys. Appreciate any help.

 

[Huskydriver]

So when you moved the scope to the bergara there was no need to rezero?

 

[Sean69]

Hi, no actually it took a lot of up travel and right travel to zero it on Begara but the adjustments started from where I had it on Ruger.

 

[hafejd30]

Trying to comprehend your question. Not sure I understand it correctly but,

If you remove the scope and remount it in the same ring/base setup you have now the the mechanical zero will not change. Regardless what the turret reads

The rail can’t be mounted backwards can it? 30 moa base should initially shoot high (around 30 moa) compared to a 0 moa base

 

[Sean69]

I imagine it could but pretty sure I mounted it correctly, the scope points downward. I had it zeroed on Ruger I forget how much it took to zero it but than removed it and put it on Begara with new precision 34 mm rings and when I went to zero it after bore sighting it at 50 yards it took quite a bit of elevation to get it zeroed. I did not turn elevation back. I just started adjusting it from where it was on Ruger, I did remove zero stop but didn’t matter because it needed up elevation. So I’m thinking I may have lost elevation adjustment because I didn’t turn it all the way down to as far as it would go and than adjust it from there on Begara

 

[Huskydriver]

Hmmm. You should have like 70ish moa of up travel if I looked up the right vortex. I would reset your zero stop and confirm your base isn't installed backwards

 

[Sean69]

Ok I’ll check it. I have mil version and I believe it’s 18 of adjustment which vortex told me means 9 up 9 left and right but still shocked it ran out of travel so quickly.

 

[Sean69]

Interesting guy at vortex was wrong just looked at site and it has 25 mil up and down and 25 mil windage site says

 

[Diver160651]

he said no it will make no difference. I can’t figure out why he’d say that. In my lizard brain if I started adjusting it on Begara at say 3 mil to zero it at 50 yards and it took say 3 more all just hypothetical aren’t I loosing 3 from the start because I started there. In other words if I start from zero and it takes 3 isn’t that better than 6 the other way.
sorry for novel but just confused, should I turn it all the way back to zero and remount it and start over.
Thxs guys. Appreciate any help.

He is correct. That erector only has what it has.

Think of it this way, whatever distance you dial, be it, 50, 100, 548 or 1200 to be on target; you just zeroed the erector/reticle on that target; doing so does not give you more travel, it is what it is.

Worth repeating, remember when we dial to impact a target our scopes are now "zeroed on that target". So if we wanted the "0" on the turret to line up with our indicator on the scope tube, we essentially loosen the assembly and slip the caps to line up without moving the erector assembly. The zero stop, be it machined into the turret cap or a hunk of shims, just keeps the turret adjustment from being able to go much below the new location you set for the cap. The sole purpose is so the shooter doesn't get lost on the rev his zero is set, not to recapture travel (except in a couple of rare examples like the EREK erector).

As you mentioned most scopes list total travel and you get roughly 1/2 up and 1/2 down from the optical center of your scope. When you mount the scope you generally have whatever SOB to make up plays a tiny bit of gravity at your zero distance just out of the gate. So if you're using a 50y zero and have a 2.4" SOB you need 1.34mils just to line the bore up with the POA, plus a tiny amount for gravity (more if your zero distance is further).

Assuming the rifle shoots straight and the scope is straight, on your scope, you now only have roughly 7.5mils that you can dial for distance.

Most commonly we put 20MOA/5.8mil or a slanted rail on the action to tilt the scope down with the idea to recapture some of the unused travel below our zero. This recovers the lost travel the SOB and zero prosses lost and usually a hair more. In this example (all things being perfect) you have 13mils of come-ups now. OK, let's fast forward to a 22 with a 50-yard zero; but I want to change my zero to 150y. So I need to use whatever I already set just to get to 50 yards, correct? Now I dial my scope 4mills more and now I am hitting center at 150y. I loosen and slip my turret to show "zero". That erector stays where it was, but now I only have 9 mils above my zero; the same amount I had before I "zeroed" the turret.

BTW a 30MOA /8.7mil on that scope is NOT a good fit. Assuming it zeros at the distance you mentioned your zero will have you right at the bottom of that particular scope, so you'll tend to get worse optical performance.

 

[Sean69]

Yes base on correct.

 

[Diver160651]

Are you sure your base isn't installed backwards?

It can't be backward with his numbers, he would hardly be able to zero; but it could easily NOT be a 30MOA rail; and or not sitting on the action/rings well.

BTW My Vudoo with RK ammo at 28inhg needs 9.5 mils to 250y with a 50yard zero. I am 14+ at 325 for what it is worth.

 

[Sean69]

He is correct. That erector only has what it has.

Think of it this way, whatever distance you dial, be it, 50, 100, 548 or 1200 to be on target; you just zeroed the erector/reticle on that target; doing so does not give you more travel, it is what it is.

Worth repeating, remember when we dial to impact a target our scopes are now "zeroed on that target". So if we wanted the "0" on the turret to line up with our indicator on the scope tube, we essentially loosen the assembly and slip the caps to line up without moving the erector assembly. The zero stop, be it machined into the turret cap or a hunk of shims, just keeps the turret adjustment from being able to go much below the new location you set for the cap. The sole purpose is so the shooter doesn't get lost on the rev his zero is set, not to recapture travel (except in a couple of rare examples like the EREK erector).

As you mentioned most scopes list total travel and you get roughly 1/2 up and 1/2 down from the optical center of your scope. When you mount the scope you generally have whatever SOB to make up plays a tiny bit of gravity at your zero distance just out of the gate. So if you're using a 50y zero and have a 2.4" SOB you need 1.34mils just to line the bore up with the POA, plus a tiny amount for gravity (more if your zero distance is further).

Assuming the rifle shoots straight and the scope is straight, on your scope, you now only have roughly 7.5mils that you can dial for distance.

Most commonly we put 20MOA/5.8mil or a slanted rail on the action to tilt the scope down with the idea to recapture some of the unused travel below our zero. This recovers the lost travel the SOB and zero prosses lost and usually a hair more. In this example (all things being perfect) you have 13mils of come-ups now. OK, let's fast forward to a 22 with a 50-yard zero; but I want to change my zero to 150y. So I need to use whatever I already set just to get to 50 yards, correct? Now I dial my scope 4mills more and now I am hitting center at 150y. I loosen and slip my turret to show "zero". That erector stays where it was, but now I only have 9 mils above my zero; the same amount I had before I "zeroed" the turret.

BTW a 30MOA /8.7mil on that scope is NOT a good fit. Assuming it zeros at the distance you mentioned your zero will have you right at the bottom of that particular scope, so you'll tend to get worse optical performance.

Hi great I information. What do you mean by at the bottom of that scope. What rail would you recommend. Just looking for Nrl22 style distances say up to 400 yards. Thxs

 

[Sean69]

It can't be backward with his numbers, but it could easily NOT be a 30MOA rail; and or not sitting on the action/rings well.

BTW My Vudoo with RK ammo at 28inhg needs 9.5 mils to 250y with a 50yard zero. I am 14+ at 325 for what it is worth.

Hi yes I zeroed it at 50 and StrelokPro said 13.5 for 305. The rail was straight from Bergara, not that the package could’ve been mismarked. Said 30 in it

 

[Diver160651]

Hi great I information. What do you mean by at the bottom of that scope. What rail would you recommend. Just looking for Nrl22 style distances say up to 400 yards. Thxs

Unfortunately, that is a relatively low travel scope. No matter what you do out to 400 with that scope you will have to use some holdover. Actually, even with a high travel 4K ZCO, we run out of elevation really fast on 22s.

I would not go over 20; but if you have 30 and not shooting at 50-yards all the time run with it.
BTW your 305 is about the same as mine I'm 13 mils. But dang 22s at these distances really start eating up scope travel. In context by 500m I am over 30 mils so you can see no matter what scope you install, it is easy to go past the edge.

When you run your turret back to your 50 yard zero, how much travel do you have above that?

 

[Diver160651]

What do you mean by at the bottom of that scope.

Think of the reticle inside a tube that threaded rods that attach to the knobs you turn, as you turn it moves it up and down and side to side. Now think of a slightly larger tube (it really is only a tiny bit larger) that goes around that inner tube housing your reticle with the threaded rods passing through the outer tube, but not moving the outer tube as the inner one moves on the rods.

On your scope from the factory, the inner tube is centered in the outer tube. At either end of the X/Y axis, it contacts the outer tube. As we approach the end of one axis, say X, the two tubes and the semi-circles they form will now keep you from adjusting the Y-axis either at all or fully and visa vera.

Putting high angle rails on low travel scopes, causes the user to move the erector a lot, often nearly "bottoming out" the available travel. NOTE that this does NOT mean at the bottom of the scope tube, in the case we are talking about, bottoming out, is near the top of the scope housing.

Additionally, when you look through both tubes the more inline they are the better the image.

FYI: Because these tubes are so close in size and the outer tubes thin to lower weight; even slightly overtightening rings, can create binding as well as limit travel and or ruin the scope.

 

[flyright]

The rifle might just be shooting low from the factory. I bought a rifle a few years back that was shooting about 18" low at 100yds. A 20 moa mount seemed like a 0 moa mount. Luckily, my LGS was nice enough to let me trade it with a slight penalty rather than go through the factory return process. The replacement rifle was fine.

 

[Sean69]

Unfortunately, that is a relatively low travel scope. No matter what you do out to 400 with that scope you will have to use some holdover. Actually, even with a high travel 4K ZCO, we run out of elevation really fast on 22s.

I would not go over 20; but if you have 30 and not shooting at 50-yards all the time run with it.
BTW your 305 is about the same as mine I'm 13 mils. But dang 22s at these distances really start eating up scope travel. In context by 500m I am over 30 mils so you can see no matter what scope you install, it is easy to go past the edge.

When you run your turret back to your 50 yard zero, how much travel do you have above that?

Hi I’ll have to check out right now with family. Funny you say low travel scope. I purchased a Athlon Argos btr gen 2 FFP for Ruger just to have something on it. I had a question about it and sent a email to Josh Thomas who runs the Pursuit of Accuracy YouTube channel since he primarily uses Athlon scopes. To my surprise last night it was around 1100 pm when I sent email he replied instantly and said let me just call you. I couldn’t believe it he did and we spoke for over a hour. What a outstanding person. Back to low travel he was saying he’s used top of line vortex’s but since he pays himself for everything that the Athlons just offer more for less. He actually recommended I get a Helos gen 2 and was saying I think it was about 50 mils of elevation I’d have. But I do understand your point about your gonna run out at some point

 

[Sean69]

The rifle might just be shooting low from the factory. I bought a rifle a few years back that was shooting about 18" low at 100yds. A 20 moa mount seemed like a 0 moa mount. Luckily, my LGS was nice enough to let me trade it with a slight penalty rather than go through the factory return process. The replacement rifle was fine.

Interesting because vortex said the rifle maybe shooting high.

 

[Diver160651]

Interesting because vortex said the rifle maybe shooting high.

In this case @flyright would be correct and Vortex wrong. But it is so easy to get backwards as we dialogue - ie turning up the turret actually turns down the reticle in the scope adjustment, this points the barrel higher in order to look at the same POA. Just as left is right when communicating holding wind. With wind coming from the left, we say hold 1.5 mils left; but in fact, we are using the right side of the reticle.

I would not sweat the dialogue unless you're just trying to grab the concept. In my hunting bow, any bow really, the common verbiage is, follow the arrow with the sight. If the arrow hits right, move the sight right to the POI, to move the next shot left - scopes work the same, but the turrets are marked opposite of what they do to the erector in order to communicate how they behave at the POI.

 

[Quarter Horse]

@Sean69 Which Begara .22 did you buy? What ammo have you been using? What yardage do you want to zero at (usually 50yds.)?

 

[Sean69]

@Sean69 Which Begara .22 did you buy? What ammo have you been using? What yardage do you want to zero at (usually 50yds.)?

Hi I have the b14r and I zeroed it at 50 yards. But after 5 hours of phone calls today to Amazon I finally got them to return vortex. Talking with Josh Thomas who runs the YouTube channel The Pursuit of Accuracy I’m gonna go with Athlon Helos btr gen 2 which has better features than vortex plus 29 mil of up elevation compared to 12 on vortex.

 

[Diver160651]

Hi I have the b14r and I zeroed it at 50 yards. But after 5 hours of phone calls today to Amazon I finally got them to return vortex. Talking with Josh Thomas who runs the YouTube channel The Pursuit of Accuracy I’m gonna go with Athlon Helos btr gen 2 which has better features than vortex plus 29 mil of up elevation compared to 12 on vortex.

I never really looked at the scope specs you bought. but you did say Vortex Venom correct? Then said something like it has only a total of 18mils (low travel) for a scope in this class. But I just saw the specs say 25 mils.. That's a big difference.. Hum, the plot kinda twists along as no way the Athon has 29mils of UP travel native either.

 

[Sean69]

I never really looked at the scope specs you bought. but you did say Vortex Venom correct? Then said something like it has only a total of 18mils (low travel) for a scope in this class. But I just saw the specs say 25 mils.. That's a big difference.. Hum, the plot kinda twists along as no way the Athon has 29mils of UP travel native either.

Not really it’s false advertising. When I called vortex they said it’s 12 windage and 12 elevation. That’s why Athlon sounds so much better 29 mil elevation and 25 mil windage.

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

Not really it’s false advertising. When I called vortex they said it’s 12 windage and 12 elevation. That’s why Athlon sounds so much better 29 mil elevation and 25 mil windage.

Vortex is 25 mil total elevation and Athlon is 29. 4 mil is that huge of a difference as it’s only 2 mil off center.

 

[koshkin]

Vortex Venom has perfectly legitimate 25mrad of elevation adjustment. Strike Eagle has more.
Given what you are seeing, something is slightly screwy either with the barrel to receiver alignment or with the base.
Sorta standard way to deal with that is to get Burris XTR Signature rings and use the inserts to compensate for whatever is irregular with the rifle/base.

ILya

 

[Diver160651]

Vortex Venom has perfectly legitimate 25mrad of elevation adjustment. Strike Eagle has more.
Given what you are seeing, something is slightly screwy either with the barrel to receiver alignment or with the base.
Sorta standard way to deal with that is to get Burris XTR Signature rings and use the inserts to compensate for whatever is irregular with the rifle/base.

ILya

I really am suspecting Sean69 might be misunderstanding, or misusing terms and getting himself crossed up. As a reference, he said the BTR had 29 mils of "UP" travel, but he probably meant total elevation travel of 29; but when talking about the Vortex seems to be taking what Vortex said and talking about travel below and above the optical center, thus 12.5mils and somehow thinking there is a huge difference. Obviously, 25mils is slightly less than 29mils and 29 will let him run a 30MOA/8.7mil base more comfortably on his 22, but he is kinda splitting hairs.

Hopefully, his base to the receiver is just not down flat or his rings are an issue, it sucks when the receiver to the barrel is jacked.

 

[Sean69]

Vortex Venom has perfectly legitimate 25mrad of elevation adjustment. Strike Eagle has more.
Given what you are seeing, something is slightly screwy either with the barrel to receiver alignment or with the base.
Sorta standard way to deal with that is to get Burris XTR Signature rings and use the inserts to compensate for whatever is irregular with the rifle/base.

ILya

Hi correct but the 25 is 12.5 up and 12.5 down. I guess to zero mine I used 3 or so leaving 9 and that got me to around 275 yards and had to hold off 4 mil to get to 305

 

[koshkin]

Hi correct but the 25 is 12.5 up and 12.5 down. I guess to zero mine I used 3 or so leaving 9 and that got me to around 275 yards and had to hold off 4 mil to get to 305

If you have a 30MOA base, all else being properly lined up, you should be left with ~17mrad of up adjustment range available. If you use the same rings and base with a different scope, you will run into the same issue.

That's why I suggested Burris XTR Signature rings. They come with different thickness plastic inserts to add some extra slope.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

I really am suspecting Sean69 might be misunderstanding, or misusing terms and getting himself crossed up. As a reference, he said the BTR had 29 mils of "UP" travel, but he probably meant total elevation travel of 29; but when talking about the Vortex seems to be taking what Vortex said and talking about travel below and above the optical center, thus 12.5mils and somehow thinking there is a huge difference. Obviously, 25mils is slightly less than 29mils and 29 will let him run a 30MOA/8.7mil base more comfortably on his 22, but he is kinda splitting hairs.

Hopefully, his base to the receiver is just not down flat or his rings are an issue, it sucks when the receiver to the barrel is jacked.

Based on the numbers he is getting, the base is probably just a mislabeled 0MOA base. However, I have seen rimifire rifle where the barrel attachment to he receiver was totally jacked and they were still really accurate until the chamber got really hot.

ILya

 

[Diver160651]

Based on the numbers he is getting, the base is probably just a mislabeled 0MOA base. However, I have seen rimifire rifle where the barrel attachment to he receiver was totally jacked and they were still really accurate until the chamber got really hot.

ILya

I'd love to see a picture of the base. A 0 vs 8.7mil is very hard to mistake by anyone.

Ya, misaligned barrel interfaces are not as common as they once were, and as you pointed out generally semi -ok as long as the windage is not way out, or it is extreme and steals too much from the travel. But the bolt interface is never correct and as you mentioned sometimes it gets funky when really hot (something much easier to do on a centerfire).

Personally, I am not at all a fan of plastic inserts in the Burris system. If he rules out all mounting issues and the thing is shooting 5 mils+ lower than it should, he should send the rifle back.

 

[Sean69]

Hi all just wanted to give update. After 5 hours on phone last weekend with Amazon I returned the vortex out of return window and had to pay restocking fee and lost over 100 dollars. Added another 100 and got Athlon Helos. Mounted it yesterday the same way I did vortex and went to range today. Sighted it on at 50 yards, shot 75 more rounds to confirm I was happy with it. Popped off turrets and reset zero. Measured scope height from center of bore and changed it on my StrelokPro app, got the weather on app and selected 400 yards. 19.1 mils started turning elevation and I have 22.5 available. I was happy as a pig in poop. I knew I did nothing wrong with vortex or the rail being backwards or rifle being defective. I figure I’d be good to 450 at least before holding off which Nrl22 isn’t probably gonna go that far anyway. The vortex must’ve been defective. Thank you all for your input and help.

 

[Diver160651]

Hi all just wanted to give update. After 5 hours on phone last weekend with Amazon I returned the vortex out of return window and had to pay restocking fee and lost over 100 dollars. Added another 100 and got Athlon Helos. Mounted it yesterday the same way I did vortex and went to range today. Sighted it on at 50 yards, shot 75 more rounds to confirm I was happy with it. Popped off turrets and reset zero. Measured scope height from center of bore and changed it on my StrelokPro app, got the weather on app and selected 400 yards. 19.1 mils started turning elevation and I have 22.5 available. I was happy as a pig in poop. I knew I did nothing wrong with vortex or the rail being backwards or rifle being defective. I figure I’d be good to 450 at least before holding off which Nrl22 isn’t probably gonna go that far anyway. The vortex must’ve been defective. Thank you all for your input and help.

Thanks for the update! yes, like I mention it's almost impossible to mistake 20 or 30 moa for 0, and miss alined barrels today are not very common.

Point of last interest, as mentioned over-tightening even slightly, can limit erector travel as can rings slightly misaligned in windage direction. Did you use an inch-pound torque wrench on the initial vortex install?

You're probably 100% correct that something was wrong in the erector, just wanted to get those last possibilities put to bed.

Congratulations on a great setup!

 

[Sean69]

Hi ,Thanks. Yes I did I have a fix it sticks one thats variable and a wheeler fat wrench. I used wheeler because I think I got lucky. When you purchase it they put a test card in it at 3 torque values and tell you how close this particular wrench is. The one I got is spot on at 2 values and only off by couple of tenths at third one. I’m actually pretty disappointed in fix it sticks as it states it has a 10 percent plus or minus accuracy

 

[Pipefitter I’m]

Hi ,Thanks. Yes I did I have a fix it sticks one thats variable and a wheeler fat wrench. I used wheeler because I think I got lucky. When you purchase it they put a test card in it at 3 torque values and tell you how close this particular wrench is. The one I got is spot on at 2 values and only off by couple of tenths at third one. I’m actually pretty disappointed in fix it sticks as it states it has a 10 percent plus or minus accuracy

I went with the Wheeler for the same reason, the Fix it sticks seem like the cats ass until you do your research on them 10 percent + or- is way to much variance