Gunsmithing Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

LRI

Lance Criminal
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Minuteman
  • Mar 14, 2010
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    Sturgis, S. Dakota
    www.longriflesinc.com
    This is an announcement of a new service that LongRifles, Inc. is now providing. To my knowledge it’s not been done before by anyone other than a few experimental pieces that I did years ago which never went public. I’m calling it “surfaced chassis stock inletting”. (A mouthful as I lack a better term at this time so were stuck with it)

    On every chassis stock I’ve seen the wedge style register is the most popular. It’s obvious that it works as there are lots of rifles shooting very well. That being said I feel there’s still room for improvement.

    DSC_0005.jpg


    If we stand over the assembled rifle and imagine where the tangent contact points are at each side of the action/stock we can see that it ends somewhere along the tang’s tapering feature ahead of the rear guard screw. This means that the rear of the receiver is essentially hanging in space because the taper doesn’t allow for the wedge to bear any load once the screws are tightened. When the rear screw is tightened it uses this initial contact point between the receiver/stock as a pivot and leverages the front of the action off the chassis.



    The point to take from this is that the receiver is not registering into the stock tension free. It’s being distorted to some degree. This is universally known in the precision rifle community as a bad thing as it can affect zeros, group size, bolt manipulation, feeding, and optics. As stated. We all know there are guns out there that shoot exceptionally well that use a chassis type stock. There are also an equal number of guns that would benefit from the modification. They are my target audience.

    I recently CAD modeled the Remington action and wrote a surfacing tool path to machine the alloy chassis/bedding block on a number of “real world” M24 sniper rifles so that they would have a true 1:1 register with the action. Since it removes material, the receiver ends up lower in the stock approximately .04” of an inch. (Just over 1/32nd). On the M24’s this did not reveal any complications as the trigger shoe and magazine box still had sufficient clearance with the floor metal to function properly. We did have to intermittently trim a few guard screws to restore clearance with the bolt and fire control.

    DSC_0009.jpg


    Surface machining is not a new process. It’s used extensively in a number of manufacturing applications. Mostly mold/die work and for a lot of aerospace applications. A number of common everyday items we all take for granted are surface machined or cast from a mold using surface machining techniques. (TV remotes, cell phones, etc) It’s a process that has really come of age now that computers have the number crunching ability to make millions of calculations per second.

    PC-Mould-for-Mobile-Phone-Cover-DQ-05-.jpg


    The stock is fixtured in a 4 axis vertical CNC milling center. The program uses a single ball endmill to resurface the chassis in a spiraling motion. With each pass the tool steps over a programmed amount and finally completes the operation. For the M24’s I chose a .05” stepover as it was the best compromise between machine time and surface finish. As a result it leaves scalloped features with each pass. This is readily seen in the photos.

    DSC_0052.jpg


    DSC_0055.jpg


    Performance:

    These rifles are used as training weapons by an entity operating in the global theatre. Round counts per month range from 1500-1700 per gun. When we received the shipment the round counts on each gun covered a range of 11,000-16,000 since the last barreling done by another shop approximately 10 months ago.

    The rifles are over 7 years old so if we use the last barreling cycle as the barometer were talking a total round count of 92,000-134,400 rounds on each weapon system. The documentation on each rifle is consistent with the math. The performance was also documented over the course of time beginning with the initial purchase, each barrel fit up, and ending with our evaluation once we completed the work we performed.

    DSC_0009-1.jpg


    As reported to us by the owner, we have exceeded the standard in every capacity. The rifles shoot exceptionally well and its immediately evident by the scores students are now posting. The last class consisted of two operators. Both cleaned the course of fire during the final exam. This in itself isn’t all that impressive as it’s been done before with M24’s. What is remarkable is that they also shot perfect scores with the SR25’s that we were also tasked with servicing. (Another subject)

    What this demonstrates to me is that the surfacing process we’ve developed IS improving the performance of the weapon system. What is interesting to note is that the guns are being shot with factory ammunition. They aren’t using exotic handloads. Each rifle retained the MIL-SPEC requirement. Meaning were not reinventing the wheel and running off and doing our own thing because we think its better. All of the factory parts are still being used. We’ve just improved upon them a little here/there and the system responded favorably.

    DSC_0052-1.jpg



    With all this being said I’d like to take this opportunity to formally announce our new chassis stock surfacing service. If you send us your H/S precision stock we can now surface machine the inlet so that you never have to worry about bedding it again. As time allows we will expand this process to other stocks like the Manner’s mini chassis system and the line of stocks from Bell and Carlson. As I type this several clients are boxing up various examples of these to serve as test samples.


    We are very excited about this as it’s emerged as a true solution to a challenge that has existed since these types of stocks first started to appear. We are also the first to offer this to the public. A Group Buy will be announced shortly for those interested.

    C
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Looks great Chad. Any chance you can come up with a block to install in an existing McMillan stock?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Very interesting Mr. Chad. I've been thinking of going to a chassis system simply to avoid having to re-bed bolt guns after rebarreling, more down time and expense, especially my varmint guns which usually get set back once before discarding the barrel.

    On the .04 lowering of the action in the stock, I would be interested in knowing if a .02 offset prior to the milling would still give 100% cleanup on the chasis?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    The only way to really know if an altered stock will work is to machine it. That's a risk you'd have to be willing to absorb.

    On some of the stocks we did, I was forced to lower the inlet a bit past .04". Some went as far as -.08" before they'd clean up. The previous shops that had worked on these had gotten rather aggressive on the chassis as they bedded them. Some were in pretty rough shape.

    That said, the "virgin" stocks ran really well with no "drain bammage".
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Hi Chad,

    Good stuff. I have a Manners TA with mini-chassis on order. My plan was to be able to swap out my 700/260 (comp gun) with my 700/223 (practice). Is it still beneficial to have the surface machining done if you plan to swap BAs?

    Regards,

    Lowe
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    I think it could benefit. As I said, the chassis setup obviously works in its present form. What this effort does is eliminate the tendency to bed/rebed the tang portion.

    So long as the receivers are the same length and in good condition I'd be inclined to say that it'd helpful.
    C.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    I'm interested in your results/findings for the B&Cs as no doubt are many others. Its an interesting approach.

    Was the modeling was done off of one action or the averages of mutliple to develop a standard set of dimensions? If so have you found the differences in Rem 700 actions to be inconsequential? Or do you model to each action? No offense, just curious. And of course when you get to the B&Cs I'm curious just how inconsistent or far from right you find them, since they are not v-blocks.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm interested in your results/findings for the B&Cs as no doubt are many others. Its an interesting approach.

    Was the modeling was done off of one action or the averages of mutliple to develop a standard set of dimensions? If so have you found the differences in Rem 700 actions to be inconsequential? Or do you model to each action? No offense, just curious. And of course when you get to the B&Cs I'm curious just how inconsistent or far from right you find them, since they are not v-blocks.
    </div></div>


    I used 8 G series Remingtons and averaged the numbers. Surprisingly, when they are in bare form and haven't been rubbed/polished on they are very consistent. Within a couple .001's. Screw locations can vary some, but they vary anyway so it ultimately doesn't affect the outcome. The hole locations seem to manage it well enough.

    Understand this isn't so much an attempt to emulate a fully pillar bedded stock as it is to support the tang of the receiver the way a conventionally bedded stock will.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Pretty cool Chad, I've also got a Manners Mini Chassis that could benefit from this, I'm running a Stiller action and getting great results, but if this could make it more consistent/accurate, I'm game.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Is there an issue with stocks that have DBM setups in them?
    Will the DBM need to be shimmed 0.040" lower or perhaps the latch shortened 0.040" to accomodate the action being 0.040" closer to the DBM?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there an issue with stocks that have DBM setups in them?
    Will the DBM need to be shimmed 0.040" lower or perhaps the latch shortened 0.040" to accomodate the action being 0.040" closer to the DBM? </div></div>

    I was hoping someone would pick up on that. Yuse a smert feller.

    Yes. In the past when fitting various DBM systems I'd had to alter the release mechanism in order to get the floor metal fitted how I want it while still having the unit run correctly. When you pull the distance between receiver/magazine setup it has a cascading effect. It all has to be checked. Thankfully it's easier to remove material than it is to put it back so this is an easy fix.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isnt that the point of a bedding job ?

    Dont take me the wrong way, this seems very inovative, but I always understood a well bedded rifle stock would do the same thing ?</div></div>

    Yes, but this will accomodate all Remington style receivers allowing the user to use multiple barreled actions in the same stock, or at least never worry about bedding again.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isnt that the point of a bedding job ?

    Dont take me the wrong way, this seems very inovative, but I always understood a well bedded rifle stock would do the same thing ?</div></div>

    Bedding in effect matches one stock to one particular action. The point of a chassis system or bedding block, is to make that stock useable on multiple different actions. Chad's service would look to make that single stock even more effective on multiple actions without the need for bedding, which limits that stocks potential effectiveness to that singular action.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was hoping someone would pick up on that. Yuse a smert feller.</div></div>

    Thanks.
    I'll take that complement any day.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Nice! I have some Devcon and was about to bed one. If you've done it, you know it is a pain. This would be way cleaner. How much for the service, or did I miss it? And, does it differ for us lefties?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darkarcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice! I have some Devcon and was about to bed one. If you've done it, you know it is a pain. This would be way cleaner. How much for the service, or did I miss it? And, does it differ for us lefties? </div></div>

    I aim to compete with current pricing for skin bedding H/S and the other chassis stocks. The little research I did seemed to show it ranging from $125-200 bucks.

    I'm looking somewhere in range of $150.00 for an H/S and $175 if we have to fit screws, machine magazine releases, etc on stocks like the AI and/or Manners MC.

    Thats for a chassis left in the white when were done. If an AI guy for instance wanted it ceracoated afterward to match the rest of it, then the rate would increase by whatever we'd charge to do it. Probably around another $100 cause you'd have to completely strip the stock to base components to do it. Ignoring this would have abrasive stuck in all sorts of places that would create all sorts of hate and discontent.

    The GB I'll be announcing will run on a sliding scale. Last year in the spring we did a bolt fluting GB this way that went beyond our wildest dreams. Over 600 bolts fluted in one month at $50 with free return shipping.

    I'd love to duplicate something like that with this thing. I have to study my cycle times and see just how low I can go and still have it make sense for the shop.

    I'll have this soon. No worries.

    C.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darkarcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice! I have some Devcon and was about to bed one. If you've done it, you know it is a pain. This would be way cleaner. How much for the service, or did I miss it? And, does it differ for us lefties? </div></div>

    I'm looking somewhere in range of $150.00 for an H/S and $175 if we have to fit screws, machine magazine releases, etc on stocks like the AI and/or Manners MC.

    </div></div>As I am not the manufacture of the HS or AI stock I can not comment on them. But since my stocks where brought up in this thread I thought that it would appropriate for me to chime in on this topic.

    This type of modification on a Manners Mini Chassis is not recommended and will void the lifetime warrant on the stock and chassis. With out going into a 2 hour long post, I would like to highlight the reason for this. Keep in mind I am only speaking for the Manners Mini Chassis, this does not pertain to any other chassis and Chads modification might be great for them. To accomplish this type of modification on one of our mini chassis you would need to move the center line of the action down a min of .078”. This is the only way you would get a full clean up pass. By doing that, it would move the barreled action about .060” below the center line of the stock, and in some cases depending on the trigger you are using it would cause trigger clearance issues, and of course mag catch issues. On some custom install we have trimmed up to .040 off the catch, but I am not sure what .078” would do.

    To highlight some of the basic design features of a v-block compared to a round fitted chassis below is a copy of a post that I did a few months ago when I was asked if bedding helps a chassis, I think that most of it applies here.

    Thank you -

    Old Post -----
    The original purpose of the mini chassis was to develop a high end drop in and go DBM system for a tactical/hunting stock with ability to be used with a wide varity of actions that did not require bedding. The key word here is “ wide Varity of actions”. This was the hardest part of the design. . Even actions from the same manufacture will not always be of the same diameter, shape, or even straight. To correct some of this difference, we designed the chassis so that it actually contacts the action in about five different points. First - the back of the lug area, Second/Third - about 1” contact on both sides of the action from the lug area backward, Fourth/Fifth – both sides of the tang area from the back action screw forward. The complete tang does not float only the very tip of the tang. The reasons that the bottom of the action and the tip of the tang float, is that not all actions are the same diameter and we want to make sure that the action is draw down and centered in the chassis. I would much rather have the action setting centered in a V block than one that is rocking side to side on the bottom of the action.

    I think what happens is that guy’s loose site on what the mini chassis was designed for. During the first test on the prototype chassis we took one of my older Rem 700 6mmBR guns and used it as a test bed. This gun will easily shoot in the very low .200” groups all day long. The first groups where shot in the fully bedded 100% carbon fiber bench rest stock. Then we droped it into an MCS-T4A with a mini chassis. The groups opend up about .100”. Was the .100” due to the chassis or because we went from a full bench gun riding in mechanical front/rear rests/bags, which was shot free recoil to a tactical stock shot off a bipod and a rear bag? Being a stock maker I got a pretty good idea on what caused the groups to open up, not all of the difference, but a lot was due to the way the two stocks road the bags or lag of.

    Bottom line is, do what gives you the most confidence in your rig. You can have a million dollar rig, but if you don’t have confidence in it, you aint going to hit shit. Some guys will bed the chassis just like they do a AI, others will do just the lug. But most ( 99% ) will just bolt it up and go. The chassis are proven shooters. Keep in mind the purpose of the chassis when I say, I dont think you are going to gain anything by doing a full bed job on a chassis, if you are building a gun that you plan on bedding, do a full pillar bed job from the start. When I build my own personnel guns, if it is a tatical comp gun I use a chassis. On the other hand, if I am doing a full blown F-class, or bench gun, where I am going to gain all the advantages of the stock and other equipment, I do a full stress free pillar bed job. Again do what gives you the most confidence.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Kudos on the machine work, if anything it looks neat. After reading this post I found a few things that sounded like you were trying to sell some new flavor of 'kool aide'. As I write this, my experience is with the manners chassis stock sitting in front of me.

    First, most of your argument for this new method is based on the assumption that those M24 rifles shot better not because you replaced the old shot out barrels (11,000-16000 rounds) with a news ones, but because of your surface machining. This to me seems a little far reaching. If the guns didn't shoot better I would suggest a new barrel manufacturer.

    Second, you claim that the small portion of the tang that is unsupported is "a bad thing" which implies that it has a negative effect on "zeros, group size, bolt manipulation, feeding, and optics". <-- your words. Where is your proof of this. Looking at the tang in a chassis you will see that the only part that is not supported is the portion that contains the rear guard screw hole. The portion of the action where the bolt enters full diameter, where rear base sits, and where all of your trigger is attached is supported by the chassis. I would actually like to see a show of hands of people that have those issues that are caused by a v-block chassis.

    I haven't seen you work up close so there are a few questions that I have. One is are your surface inlets a tight, almost squeeze fit? If not then you all you have done is created a single line contact along the bottom of the action. What is to stop the action from rolling during recoil? Another is how do you compensate for the fact the Remington receivers aren't completely round when machining a completely round surface? If you've ever seen a Remington before before it has had any metal finish done to it you will have seen that there is some hand polishing done. Some worse than others but still not completely round. I would like to know how this affects the receivers positioning.

    Take it for what it is worth but I don't see where this will improve a v-block style chassis. And without an unbiased comparison I'm not buying it. Just my two cents.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    If I'm reading it correctly, I think what Chad is saying is that with the tang unsupported, the rear screw is going to pull the tang down and with a v-block chassis, the back two points of contact will act like a lever fulcrum and put undue stress on the rest of the receiver. With a block more closely contacting the whole bottom of the receiver, the force is spread out over a greater area and there's less of a fulcrum to the lever.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    My dad was right, I should have double majored in college, my electrical engineering degree isn't helping me much on this one. I should have taken some mechanical engineering courses while I was at it. I’m doing my best trying to visualize all this, just when I think I understand it, someone else brings up another point and I’m back to square one. Keep the info coming gang, this educated poor dumb country boy will catch on sooner or later!
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: No Cool Name Req</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kudos on the machine work, if anything it looks neat. After reading this post I found a few things that sounded like you were trying to sell some new flavor of 'kool aide'. As I write this, my experience is with the manners chassis stock sitting in front of me.

    First, most of your argument for this new method is based on the assumption that those M24 rifles shot better not because you replaced the old shot out barrels (11,000-16000 rounds) with a news ones, but because of your surface machining. This to me seems a little far reaching. If the guns didn't shoot better I would suggest a new barrel manufacturer.


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Performance:

    These rifles are used as training weapons by an entity operating in the global theatre. Round counts per month range from 1500-1700 per gun. When we received the shipment the round counts on each gun covered a range of 11,000-16,000 <span style="font-weight: bold">since the last barreling done by another shop approximately 10 months ago.</span>

    The rifles are over 7 years old so if we use the last barreling cycle as the barometer were talking a total round count of 92,000-134,400 rounds on each weapon system. The documentation on each rifle is consistent with the math. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">The performance was also documented over the course of time beginning with the initial purchase, each barrel fit up, and ending with our evaluation once we completed the work we performed.</span></span>

    <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">As reported to us by the owner,</span></span></span> we have exceeded the standard in every capacity. The rifles shoot exceptionally well and its immediately evident by the scores students are now posting. The last class consisted of two operators. Both cleaned the course of fire during the final exam. This in itself isn’t all that impressive as it’s been done before with M24’s. What is remarkable is that they also shot perfect scores with the SR25’s that we were also tasked with servicing. (Another subject)

    What this demonstrates to me is that the surfacing process we’ve developed IS improving the performance of the weapon system. What is interesting to note is that the guns are being shot with factory ammunition. They aren’t using exotic handloads. Each rifle retained the MIL-SPEC requirement. Meaning were not reinventing the wheel and running off and doing our own thing because we think its better. All of the factory parts are still being used. We’ve just improved upon them a little here/there and the system responded favorably.
    </div></div>


    Second, you claim that the small portion of the tang that is unsupported is "a bad thing" which implies that it has a negative effect on "zeros, group size, bolt manipulation, feeding, and optics". <-- your words. Where is your proof of this. Looking at the tang in a chassis you will see that the only part that is not supported is the portion that contains the rear guard screw hole. The portion of the action where the bolt enters full diameter, where rear base sits, and where all of your trigger is attached is supported by the chassis. I would actually like to see a show of hands of people that have those issues that are caused by a v-block chassis.
    <span style="font-style: italic">
    <span style="font-weight: bold">The list below was copied and pasted directly from some of the most popular gunsmith sites in the US. I've also attached links so anyone can verify the information for themselves.</span></span>

    The point of doing this:

    Alterations of the chassis stock system have been actively advertised/executed for a few years now. It's not a new thing so the "shock and awe" of what my shop is able to offer shouldn't be causing so much ruckus. It's just another version of it.


    GA Precision:
    16th Line item on Services page

    <span style="font-weight: bold"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bed HS Precision Stock, or AI Chassis $175</div></div></span>

    Phoenix Custom Rifles:
    17th Line Item from Services Page

    <span style="font-weight: bold"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bed action/lug area of Accuracy International Chassis System to customers action - $120
    We use Titanium Devcon to bed the front and rear pads(under the receiver ring and tang), and the lug area. If desired we can also put a pad in front of the lug.
    We feel this is the best way to bed AICS's. Torque AICS action screws to 60 inch pounds.</div></div></span>

    American Precision Arms:
    9th Line item of Services Page

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Bedding HS stock or similar (stock with aluminum block) $200</span></div></div>


    GreTan Rifles:
    Bedding Aluminum Stocks Service

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Epoxy bed stocks with aluminum bedding block. Price $200.00</span></div></div>

    Next, maybe look at these threads/posts/comments right here from the Hide:

    Chassis Stock Bedding

    Mr. Roscoe's Thoughts

    Random statements from SH members

    Someone who probably wouldn't be interes...on bedding. . .

    Reference cost of paying to have a chassis stock bedded

    Dick Davis, Head Stock guru from McMillan



    I haven't seen you work up close so there are a few questions that I have. One is are your surface inlets a tight, almost squeeze fit? If not then you all you have done is created a single line contact along the bottom of the action. What is to stop the action from rolling during recoil? Another is how do you compensate for the fact the Remington receivers aren't completely round when machining a completely round surface?

    <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I don't have to machine a completely round surface. I surface modeled an inlet for a BAT machine receiver that has about 30 facets in it. Each facet was replicated in the inlet prior to bedding it into a hunting rifle stock. It's called software. Reeeeealllllyyyyy expensive software. It's also called surface plates, height stands, optical comparators, micrometers, and tape measures.</span></span>

    Build Thread for BAT receiver


    <span style="font-style: italic">
    If you've ever seen a Remington before before it has had any metal finish done to it you will have seen that there is some hand polishing done. Some worse than others but still not completely round. I would like to know how this affects the receivers positioning. </span>

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I recently CAD modeled the Remington action and wrote a surfacing tool path to machine the alloy chassis/bedding block on a number of “real world” M24 sniper rifles so that they would have a true 1:1 register with the action. Since it removes material, the receiver ends up lower in the stock approximately .04” of an inch. (Just over 1/32nd)</span></span></div></div>

    Take it for what it is worth but I don't see where this will improve a v-block style chassis. And without an unbiased comparison I'm not buying it. Just my two cents. </div></div>

    To reiterate my opening statement:

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point to take from this is that the receiver is not registering into the stock tension free. It’s being distorted to some degree. This is universally known in the precision rifle community as a bad thing as it can affect zeros, group size, bolt manipulation, feeding, and optics. As stated.<span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"> We all know there are guns out there that shoot exceptionally well that use a chassis type stock. There are also an equal number of guns that would benefit from the modification. They are my target audience.</span></div></div></span></span></span>


    Smells fishy to me:

    5 posts and a join date of 11/29/05 ??





    In closing:

    Obviously, this has started a bit of a ruckus. Not at all what I intended. I approached this whole subject with the mindset of offering an alternative to slathering epoxy in a chassis stock. -Something that's being done, has been done, and I speculate continue to be done for a very long time.

    That's it.

    If anyone as a person/manufacturer feels I'm singling you out or suggesting that your product is falling short, I'm not. ALL I am doing is offering a service as an alternative to bedding compound and the well accepted practice of making a casting in your stock.

    I have this mindset on the whole subject matter:

    If I go an buy a new Corvette off the showroom floor and then dump another $XXXXXX into it by purchasing every widgit from a Summit Racing catalog am I suddenly implying that the original factory car is a pile of junk?

    No.

    If that were the case every gunsmith out there should be getting hate mail from Remington because we buy one piece bolts, accurize receivers, lap lugs, fluting, yada, yada, yada.

    Pissing people off was the LAST thing this post was supposed to do. I'm sorry that it did.

    The offer still stands. If you have a chassis stock and feel it could benefit from what we can do, I'd be happy to do the work. If you don't like it, there's no gun being shoved into your temple to do it so relax.

    Chad
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    How about making a chassis/bedding block that would work with a A5 and Surgeon DBM? Machine the stock out so the block drops in the DBM drops in and the action crews to the action sandwich them together? I'd love a McM/Surgeon mini-chassis. Could it be done?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawman556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about making a chassis/bedding block that would work with a A5 and Surgeon DBM? Machine the stock out so the block drops in the DBM drops in and the action crews to the action sandwich them together? I'd love a McM/Surgeon mini-chassis. Could it be done? </div></div>

    +1
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I'm reading it correctly, I think what Chad is saying is that with the tang unsupported, the rear screw is going to pull the tang down and with a v-block chassis, the back two points of contact will act like a lever fulcrum and put undue stress on the rest of the receiver. With a block more closely contacting the whole bottom of the receiver, the force is spread out over a greater area and there's less of a fulcrum to the lever. </div></div>

    I, too, interpreted CD's comments like this. The comparison I made was bedding a scope base...why add stress? Makes sense to me.

    And like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thomas Manners</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    As I am not the manufacture of the HS or AI stock I can not comment on them. But since my stocks where brought up in this thread I thought that it would appropriate for me to chime in on this topic.

    This type of modification on a Manners Mini Chassis is not recommended and will void the lifetime warrant on the stock and chassis. With out going into a 2 hour long post, I would like to highlight the reason for this. Keep in mind I am only speaking for the Manners Mini Chassis, this does not pertain to any other chassis and Chads modification might be great for them. To accomplish this type of modification on one of our mini chassis you would need to move the center line of the action down a min of .078”. This is the only way you would get a full clean up pass. By doing that, it would move the barreled action about .060” below the center line of the stock, and in some cases depending on the trigger you are using it would cause trigger clearance issues, and of course mag catch issues. On some custom install we have trimmed up to .040 off the catch, but I am not sure what .078” would do.

    To highlight some of the basic design features of a v-block compared to a round fitted chassis below is a copy of a post that I did a few months ago when I was asked if bedding helps a chassis, I think that most of it applies here.

    Thank you -

    Old Post -----
    The original purpose of the mini chassis was to develop a high end drop in and go DBM system for a tactical/hunting stock with ability to be used with a wide varity of actions that did not require bedding. The key word here is “ wide Varity of actions”. This was the hardest part of the design. . Even actions from the same manufacture will not always be of the same diameter, shape, or even straight. To correct some of this difference, we designed the chassis so that it actually contacts the action in about five different points. First - the back of the lug area, Second/Third - about 1” contact on both sides of the action from the lug area backward, Fourth/Fifth – both sides of the tang area from the back action screw forward. The complete tang does not float only the very tip of the tang. The reasons that the bottom of the action and the tip of the tang float, is that not all actions are the same diameter and we want to make sure that the action is draw down and centered in the chassis. I would much rather have the action setting centered in a V block than one that is rocking side to side on the bottom of the action.

    I think what happens is that guy’s loose site on what the mini chassis was designed for. During the first test on the prototype chassis we took one of my older Rem 700 6mmBR guns and used it as a test bed. This gun will easily shoot in the very low .200” groups all day long. The first groups where shot in the fully bedded 100% carbon fiber bench rest stock. Then we droped it into an MCS-T4A with a mini chassis. The groups opend up about .100”. Was the .100” due to the chassis or because we went from a full bench gun riding in mechanical front/rear rests/bags, which was shot free recoil to a tactical stock shot off a bipod and a rear bag? Being a stock maker I got a pretty good idea on what caused the groups to open up, not all of the difference, but a lot was due to the way the two stocks road the bags or lag of.

    Bottom line is, do what gives you the most confidence in your rig. You can have a million dollar rig, but if you don’t have confidence in it, you aint going to hit shit. Some guys will bed the chassis just like they do a AI, others will do just the lug. But most ( 99% ) will just bolt it up and go. The chassis are proven shooters. Keep in mind the purpose of the chassis when I say, I dont think you are going to gain anything by doing a full bed job on a chassis, if you are building a gun that you plan on bedding, do a full pillar bed job from the start. When I build my own personnel guns, if it is a tatical comp gun I use a chassis. On the other hand, if I am doing a full blown F-class, or bench gun, where I am going to gain all the advantages of the stock and other equipment, I do a full stress free pillar bed job. Again do what gives you the most confidence.
    </div></div>

    If you look at both sides of the argument, there is absolutely no statistical proof that a v-block is better than Chad's surface machining. In fact it might be worse. Tom's argument is one rifle moved from bedded stock to chassis, and it shot worse which he admits. Why it shot worse, well as I said one sample is not enough information. Chad's method will give more surface contact to the action, is that a better route than "5 points of contact"...? Well, the most accurate guns in the world don't use 5 points of contact, they use maximum surface area contact stress free bedding jobs. Chad's method is closer to this model than a v-block. The argument that the action will "rock" is based on what? Nothing more than conjecture and personal feeling. Why is rocking worse than having the action pinched and stressed in a v-block? No one knows because proper experimental comparisons have never been done. I run a mini-chassis and it shoots pretty good, but not as good as when the rifle was bedded. Why? Because there is more stress and less surface area support for the action in a v-block than when properly bedded. The beefier stiffer actions will mitigate this issue, but Remington's are anything but beefy and stiff and need maximum surface area stress relief to reach optimal performance. The reason for using a chassis is maximum convenience, not maximum accuracy. So which method lends itself to a more accurate rifle? Guess time will tell and the dollars will always decide.

    -SBS
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    I have read this thread several times and keep thinking the same thing:

    To the people who are dobuting this modification how much exposure have they had with the HS stocks? And I dont mean a small sample rate like 1 or 2 but several with many different actions? I am no professional and dont calim to know everything or even much of anything but I have had some time with the HS stocks. I have owned about 6 or 8 rifles with this stock with different actions, several Remingtons (both 700 and 40x), 2 savages, and 1 HS pro 2000. I have had a wide range of success with them. The HS pro 2000 rifle shot very well and was very consistant from action out to back in. The 40X Tactical I had was one of the best shooting and most consistant rifles I have ever owned. I had a Savage LRP in 6mmbr that clearly had bedding problems inducing a ton of stress in the action. I could snug up the front screw and when I would tighten and loosen the rear screw lightly by hand and the barrel would move 0.200" at the end of the fore arm. I know the Savage has a floating tang so Chads mod dosent directly apply but still shows the inconsistancy that can be in these style stocks. As a note after talking with Savage and HS both of them telling me there was nothing wrong and tring several different torque ammounts on the rifle I skim bedded it in Marine Tex and it started shooting sub 1/2moa. I also checked the HS rifle and the 40X and neighter moved more than 0.002" to 0.003" measured at the same spot. I have worked on several 700s both that I have owned and ones that were given to me by others to get them to shoot and have found the same mixed results. All of them that shot well (except one that I can remember) showed very little movement when I torqued the front screw to around 35 inch pounds and tightened and loosened the rear by hand. The ones that would consistantly or should I say inconsistantly throw shots in orbit at random all showed a lot of movement. I didnt keep records but the best I can remember the least ammount of movement that caused poor accuracy was around 0.050" up to almost 1/4". I was able to repair some of them by skim bedding and other I scrapped by trading. I decided to do some testing on them to determine where the problem was. I found through both bedding and looking at what was truely contacting and using prussian blue that I would get good recoil lug contact of 60% or slightly more in the center of the lug and parallel points of contact as in a vee block (of different lengths from rifle to rifle). A few would show some random contact on the tang but nothing good or consistant usually a spot off the side here or there.

    I didnt post this to piss anyone off, I am just tring to say how I can see a lot of benefit to Chads mod. I think it is important to keep in mind the concept behind the chassis system and I think Tom explained this very well. I have not had as much experience with the other chassis out there like the Manners, Mcree, and AICS but with the small sample I have used the Mcree and the AICS produced very good results. I have not yet had a chance to try a Manners chassis but would love to at some point.

    I hope this helps to shed a little more light on the subject (or at least my findings) and not throw it too far off the topic.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Sto

    I guess all I was getting at was show me the proof that this is going to improve anything and not just be a service that we can pay for because the gunsmith/service provider says it does.

    The op still hasn't shown how he came up with the conclusion that his new service is an improvement. And I understand that "<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">As reported to us by the owner, we have exceeded the standard in every capacity</span></span>" but, again, he replaced a barrel with "11,000 to 16,000" round down it with a new one. He then machined the stock and BANG, they shot great. The op then says that "<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">What this demonstrates to me is that the surfacing process we’ve developed IS improving the performance of the weapon system</span>"</span>. Where is your proof that the improvement in accuracy is not just from the re-barrel job? The point that I am making is, and tell me if I am missing something, the op's proof that his process is an <span style="font-weight: bold">improvement</span> is based on a gun that he just put a brand new barrel on along with his new process.

    Another thing that I would need proof on would be that the action is not "rolling" during recoil. If you put a smaller circle inside of a larger circle and push it to on side, do you not get a single point of contact at the tangent point? And barrels have rifling that "twists", correct? And we know that as the bullet travels down the barrel it creates torque. Show me that this won't cause the action want to roll or move in some rotational way.

    The above is a concern to me because the op hasn't stated how tight his process will fit each receiver, he only states that he has <span style="font-weight: bold">"Reeeeealllllyyyyy expensive software".</span>

    And I guess another question is if the op fits each inlet to a specific receiver, then now do we have a service that is only slightly more accommodating to other receivers than bedding but less than a v-block?

    I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of arguing. The op states that he has "a true solution to a challenge that has existed since these types of stocks first started to appear" (is bedding not a true solution?). And as far as I can tell the only testing done to a process that to "[the op's] knowledge it’s not been done before by anyone" has been by the op and included multiple variables. I feel that I am being objective and bringing up valid points to further a discussion about the validity of this new process.

    And to the op, what is so fishy about five posts and a join date of 2005?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU DID NOT CREATE A POST DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME OF IT.

    More related to the topic if you have ever seen an entire arms room foll of M24's you would see how inconsistent these stocks can be.
    Great job Chad
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajwcotton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU DID NOT CREATE A POST DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME OF IT.</div></div>

    This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stoc

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: No Cool Name Req</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess all I was getting at was show me the proof that this is going to improve anything and not just be a service that we can pay for because the gunsmith/service provider says it does. </div></div>

    Chad doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd sell snake-oil to his customers, I take him at his word.

    I suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's earned it IMO.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stoc

    ^ I concur. Can't see him selling something that doesn't work. He seems like the kind of guy that would scrap a idea/project if it wasn't working and move on to something that did.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stoc

    He's offering another option for stock owners, not trying to replace traditional bedding. If you think it's B.S., move on. I'm going to go out on a line and say Chad has forgotten more about building accurate rifles than you will ever learn. I don't personally feel the need to send in a Manners or AICS, but after seeing HS Precision and B&C bedding blocks, they could benefit greatly from this service.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stoc

    I discovered this problem a couple of years ago. I didn't know the reason - thanks Chad for explaining. I had 2 AICS stocked rifles that both had unexplained fliers. On close inspection I found that the tang section was not making contact with the with the Al block. you can see it plainly when you tighten only the front action screw. It looked to be at least 0.020" clearance. I solved the problem by skim bedding the tang area. Both rifles responded favorably when modified.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: No Cool Name Req</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kudos on the machine work, if anything it looks neat. After reading this post I found a few things that sounded like you were trying to sell some new flavor of 'kool aide'. As I write this, my experience is with the manners chassis stock sitting in front of me.

    First, most of your argument for this new method is based on the assumption that those M24 rifles shot better not because you replaced the old shot out barrels (11,000-16000 rounds) with a news ones, but because of your surface machining. This to me seems a little far reaching. If the guns didn't shoot better I would suggest a new barrel manufacturer.

    Second, you claim that the small portion of the tang that is unsupported is "a bad thing" which implies that it has a negative effect on "zeros, group size, bolt manipulation, feeding, and optics". <-- your words. Where is your proof of this. Looking at the tang in a chassis you will see that the only part that is not supported is the portion that contains the rear guard screw hole. The portion of the action where the bolt enters full diameter, where rear base sits, and where all of your trigger is attached is supported by the chassis. I would actually like to see a show of hands of people that have those issues that are caused by a v-block chassis.

    I haven't seen you work up close so there are a few questions that I have.<span style="color: #FF0000"> One is are your surface inlets a tight, almost squeeze fit? If not then you all you have done is created a single line contact along the bottom of the action. What is to stop the action from rolling during recoil? </span> Another is how do you compensate for the fact the Remington receivers aren't completely round when machining a completely round surface? If you've ever seen a Remington before before it has had any metal finish done to it you will have seen that there is some hand polishing done. Some worse than others but still not completely round. I would like to know how this affects the receivers positioning.

    <span style="color: #FF0000">Take it for what it is worth but I don't see where this will improve a v-block style chassis.</span> And without an unbiased comparison I'm not buying it. Just my two cents. </div></div>

    i like chad and he has helped me a lot but as honest as i am, i have to admit, i agree with the highlited parts of your post (and maybe a few other points). that said, your post has a feel to it like you may be someone who could loose money due to this service being offered. maybe i'm wrong by assuming this but are you in the industry?
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SagebrushShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason for using a chassis is maximum convenience, not maximum accuracy.</div></div>

    This is the key thing to understand about chassis systems in general.
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    Oh my freaking god! This is so simple to grasp what is all the fuss. It's a bedding job with out all the bedding gunk is that so hard to understand?

    Great Job Chad!
     
    Re: Our New Service: Surface Machined Chassis Stocks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pure_mahem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a bedding job with out all the bedding gunk</div></div>

    No it's not.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pure_mahem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is that so hard to understand?</div></div>

    Appearantly it is for some people...