Out of battery detonation!

rcaddict

rcaddict

Private
Minuteman
Jun 1, 2008
17
0
52
Virginia
#1
I am not sure if this should be posted here so move if you need to mods.

This past weekend at an FCSA match an ALS upper detonated out of battery seriously injuring the shooter. This is the second such an occurance in less than a year. So if you shoot an ALS 50 cal upper the manufacturer has stated not to shoot the gun until this is fully investigated and a fix is found.
 
#4
Re: Out of battery detonation!

eek.gif


How's the shooter doing?
 
#5
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Man that sucks. Orkan and I talked to the first guy that lost an eye a bit about what happend. I think about that every time I load a big ass 50 in my chanber. I hope ALS gets it taken care of....
 
#10
Re: Out of battery detonation!

I was present and administered first aid to the injured competitor until the paramedics arrived.

This has been posted on the FCSA Forum, but here is the Safety Notice issued by the manufacturer:


<span style="font-weight: bold">Safety Notice from Advanced Long-Range Systems, LLC (ALS)</span>

Advanced Long-Range Systems would like you to know of a serious incident that recently occurred with one of its products.

At the 2009 FCSA World Championships, an ALS .50 BMG caliber upper for an AR-series rifle experienced an apparent out-of-battery round detonation that resulted in severe injuries to the shooter. ALS wants you to be assured that we are thoroughly investigating the incident, in full cooperation with the FCSA, the Whittington Center, and others.

As all the facts are not yet in, and as purely a safety precaution, ALS is asking owners of its rifle uppers to suspend shooting this product until further notice.

Once additional information is available, you can rest assured that it will be passed along on our website, in VHP Magazine, and the relevant firearms discussion forums.

Thanks for your support.



ADVANCED LONG-RANGE SYSTEMS, LLC:
3554 E. Antelope Rd.
Eagle Point, OR 97524
(541) 826-8232
Web site: www.50bmg.net
E-mail: [email protected]
 
#13
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Never did like those "pipe guns". I think they have inherent weaknesses that are dangerous in this type of event. An EDM Windrunner will never cause an injury, just like any bolt action rifle with an out of battery event. Have seen this even with the Barrett M107, and it didn't injury the shooter, bent the gun though.

An aluminum pipe is not strong enough to contain the energy of an out of battery blast, you need steel and a fair chunk of it.

You cannot beat a standard steel action with a standard 2 or 3 lug bolt for strength and SAFETY. Frankly I kind of like the old falling block design that was done by Horstkamp. Short short action (not a repeater but who cares), lighter weight, faster to reload, and damn strong.

Trigger
 
#15
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Triggerfifty I did a lot of research before I purchased my rifle and I looked at all of the various upper conversions out there and I basicly came to the same conclusion. I went with an AR-50 because it is built like a tank! That is one hell of a lot of powder being ignited a few inches from your face. I am very concearned about the investigation though as my brother shoots a Spider Firearms upper and there are a lot like the ALS.
 
#16
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Wow, that's bad.....sorry to hear about that. I have always wondered about those so called AR-15 "Conversions" to 50BMG. I ended up going with the Armalite AR-50. It appeared to be one of the better built to handle the 50BMG. I ended up selling mine about 8 months ago when the ammo was starting to way up. I hope the guy will be fine, that is one Hell of an explosion. God Speed to him and his family.

Mike
 
#17
Re: Out of battery detonation!

"An EDM Windrunner will never cause an injury, just like any bolt action rifle with an out of battery event. "

DUDE, you are WAY OFF BASE with that comment.

ONE - read the friggin' manual that comes with the rifle. It specifically warns on how to handle a jammed sear and possible out-of-battery ignition, something the rifle is prone to based on its design (long bolt with a M700 trigger).

TWO - ANY RIFLE of ANY DESIGN of ANY CHAMBERING can suffer from an ammunition-related hang fire.

Back off the Kool-aid.

 
#18
Re: Out of battery detonation!

I will not try to say what someone means but I would take it that since the bolt on an EDM is in a sense captured and inline with the inside of the stock that an out of battery would be FAR LESS prone to injury than one of the carrier styles that you stick the round on the end of the bolt and then into the gun. IMHO
 
#19
Re: Out of battery detonation!

ALS's web site shows an AR-15 upper assembly with a side ejection port as best I can tell and a normal front lugged turn bolt held captive in the upper receiver in line with the buffer tube of the lower receiver.
 
#20
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
An aluminum pipe is not strong enough to contain the energy of an out of battery blast, you need steel and a fair chunk of it.
</div></div>

For the record, Darren's (ALS) receiver is made of steel and the bolt is a 2 lug design.

I wish the shooter the best.

Hope this works out for Darren too.


Good luck
 
#21
Re: Out of battery detonation!

I guess then all the 700-based rifles (the 700 action is actually made from a piece of pipe from the steel supplier) as well as the scaled up 700 clone McMillan 50 action are all unsafe "pipe guns" as well.

Good to know.
 
#22
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will not try to say what someone means but I would take it that since the bolt on an EDM is in a sense captured and inline with the inside of the stock that an out of battery would be FAR LESS prone to injury than one of the carrier styles that you stick the round on the end of the bolt and then into the gun. IMHO</div></div>

Not really, If the gun went off because of a stuck firing pin. With a shell holder type bolt you know when your firing pin is f-ed because you wont be able to put the shell into the bolt. If he opened his action an a hang fire your screwed either way. I don't think the roll pin that holds the bolt stop on is going to do much for you.
 
#23
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Its amazing how much "I heard" speculation goes on around 50s, even in the shooting world. The 50 BMG uppers for AR lowers are no differant than any bolt action rifle. And who the hell said someting about them being aluminum? WTF? NO. Take a Remmy 700, you have the action and barrel mounted to the stock with two screws. Now take a 50 BMG upper, you have the action and barrel attached to the stock/lower with two pins. Witch by the way take no recoil force at all. Everyone says the AR50 is Gods gift to 50 shooters but tatke that action out of it God awful stock and pin it to a AR lower and you have the same exact thing. Using an AR type lower in no way at all makes them inherently dangerous. If you get a out of battery exposion in any bolt action rilfe it will not be good. The reasons (IM assuming, noone really wants to say why it happened) the ALS uppers did that had nothing to do with the fact they were AR uppers. If ALS had made a lower and stock for them the problem would still be in the bolt/lug/pin design.
 
#24
Re: Out of battery detonation!

NineHotel.. I am not your "dude", leave your age group behind.

Some of you are missing the point. If, a round detonated outside the chamber in an EDM gun, or a 700 OR actions of that design, THOSE actions would handle the energy. NOTHING to do with screws, pins, etc. Has NOTHING to do with recoil energy either.

YES, if a shell holder detonated out of battery, but with the lugs partially engaged, it "could" be bad, if a round detonated in free air, with no constraints of a chamber, the damage may be marginal, perhaps not lethal. Look up General Julian Hatchers notebook and his experiments with "detonating" ammunition out of chambers, inside of pockets, etc.

Problem with these discussions is that much supposition goes on, or 1 time event witnessing, OR worse, urban myths about what guns do, plus some thin skins, + all that up, BS generated. What this site needs is a "mythbusters" posting
smile.gif
 
#25
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">DUDE - </span>

In response to your post several up of <span style="font-weight: bold">"Never did like those "pipe guns". I think they have inherent weaknesses that are dangerous in this type of event."</span>


From the ALS web site:

"SOLID QUALITY

Our conversion receiver is made the old fashioned way - machined from solid steel. One piece construction on all critical components insure the highest quality and safety available for any 50 BMG conversion."

and:

" Bolt CNC Machined two locking lugs 1 ¼ AUS tempered
Action is CNC machined from solid bar stock"

Here's a pic of the receiver:

CammoGunLRG2.jpg



This is what you consider a pipe gun with a shell holder bolt?
 
#26
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Quote of updated info from one of the guys at FCSA

"i have spoken with Darren about the WC incident he told me he is working on a fix for all ALS uppers that will not allow the hammer to strike the firing pin unless the bolt is in full battery this will take 30 to 60 days to implement the start of refitting ,Darren will be sending out Safety Warning /Recall letters to all ALS owners 400 or so notifying you not to use your upper until he has a fix for it .

Darren has told me no matter what happens to ALS as a company he is commited to making sure that every ALS upper out there is fixed so that it cannot fire out of full battery due to hammer fall , he is adamant that he will make every one out there safe to shoot no matter what.

however to do this he needs to be working not answering the phone ,his plate is way too full right now ,between trying to find out what happened and how , designing and making a fix and notifying
owners in writing of a Safety Warning /Recall on all ALS uppers and sadly setting up legal representation

ALS uppers have served well and shot very well for 10 years and only in the last few months has there been any problem with them that has caused injury .

so hold your calls and emails to him until he has the fix we ALS (i am one too ) owners must bide our time until he is ready and organized to do the intake of parts that need to be fixed or replaced

i have posted this at Darren`s request the words are mine and i am soley responsible for them ,the commitment to make it right for all existing ALS uppers is Darren`s as he expressed to me !!!

so in closing you will not be stuck with a useless stick your upper will live again just bide your time a bit and you will once again be able to make paper eat hot lead again"
 
#27
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Tuff guy,... never antagonize a proctologist whose nickname is digger. You're antagonizing.

Yes, it is a pipe gun, granted the bolt is conventional design, that's good, it is a short bolt design, and YES, without working the gun, I see a couple of weaknesses in the design, which may or MAY NOT contribute to injury. I'm sure ALS did the engineering mechanics on the stresses. CNC means very little in the strength and designs aspects, hardening can and does, how it's hardened, to what hardness at which points. How much shearing force can the lugs handle, all that babble. I've seen EDM designs, McBros, Daisy, AMAC, Barretts tested to destruction failure. They all can fail, they all can fail at some point with the round either in, out, or partially out of battery, with varying degrees of potential injury to the shooter, or others nearby.

Without getting into details, (because shit eating lawyers wander these sites like ambulance chasers), there is a flaw in the design. ANY gun builder that is executing a design for the first time should test the gun to total failure (welding the barrel shut if need be) to test the fail strength of a rifle shooting a .50 BMG round.

Let's stow this discussion, I sense someone defending a pet rock. I believe that no gun builder thinks their design is weak, but they should test it to destructive failure.

Gotta love the antagonistic nature of people who use the anonomous nature of the net to say things that when said face to face might get a beer bottle on the side of their head for their rude speak.

Trigger
 
#28
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Look, I am defending nothing. You called it a pipe gun and it is not. You own that, not me. I could give two shits about ALS and their design, but I will call bullshit on someone misrepresenting what something is and what something isn't.

The ALS receiver is a big hunk of machined billet with a hole in the back, just as your beloved EDM is.

You appear to be confusing the ALS design with an LAR Grizzly:

http://www.50bmgstore.com/grizzly_manual.pdf

Have you personally tested all three to the point of failure?
 
#29
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Can't remember who did it but there is video of one of the manu's rifle where they plug the thing with dirt and fire it and go all the way to threading the barrel and putting a bolt in the shortened barrel and firing it. Took a hammer to open it but it did not fail. It was not an EDM but I am sure I can find it. I can say that my windrunner is built like a tank. However I would not want to be a test animal.
smile.gif
 
#31
Re: Out of battery detonation!

That video is of the Bluegrass Armory Viper XL. Great rifle. The video was one of the factors that convinced me to buy one. Located here: http://bluegrassarmory.com/media.html

They stuff the barrel with mud, fire it. Pour sand down the barrel then fire it. Then cut the barrel off and thread two set screws in the barrel to totally obstruct it and touch it off. No structural damage to the receiver. Impressive.
 
#32
Re: Out of battery detonation!

You're right, that is an impressive, not lab testing, but it'd be sufficient for me.

9h.. I'm not an EDM nut, I do like the design, have had several of them, they hammered the Barrett POS in the army trials, but the army was either in bed with them, or SOMEONE was. The army dummied down the requirements and basically rewrote the requirements doc so that the Barrett POS was the only gun that could "meet" the standards.

The Blue Grass gun is a strong gun, not all "pipeguns" are necessarily weak.

A pipe gun as I call it is a gun that uses an extruded aluminum reciever with a press fit or screw fit barrel with a barrel extension that the bolt locking lugs interface with. When together, they're strong enough, the design isolates the regidity requirement within the barrel extension, not the reciever.

BUT, if a blowup occurs outside the chamber, pipe guns do not have the strength to hold down the energy, unless the detonating round is well outside the confinements of the chamber.

Also, barrel extensions are not as strong as a reciever that wraps the locking lugs with heavy steel. The EDM design is massive, maybe too much, but when a gun blows, how much is too much, or not enough. I've shot a few shell holder 14.5mm and 20mm rifles here and there, it makes ME nervous to load that monster with a shell holder bolt, but an interlocking safety can prevent dangerous out of the chamber explosions.

Also, for everyone's general info, a live round, firing in mid-air on the face of a bolt is serious, probably not life threatening unless it happens right before your very eyes at close range. This has been tested using electric squibs to fire the cartridge to simulate these events. The bullet goes about 3-5 feet, the case splits, someties creating minor mid-velocity shrapnel.

If a guy shooting a bolt face holding shell holder design DOESN'T turn his face after loading the round while chamber it, he's probably not being prudent to protect himself. Wear good eye armor, load the round, put your face in your armpit and load the round.

Our procedure was for the shooter to hold the bolt face up, the observer loads the round onto the bolt face, the shooter immediately loads the round into the gun with his face averted to prevent injury (which never happened but one time in military history, that i'm aware of anyway). That way, the "hot" round was never too close to someone's face. Also, with the bolt face up, there is less danger of mid-velocity shrapnel travelling in a bad direction. Make sense?

While it's unconventional, i dearly love the falling block design for big heavy cartridges. For the following reasons.

1. VERY safe, hammer striker system that is not going to fail. Just like a revolver, cock the hammer, shoot the gun, by using a over the hammer lever, you can positively lock the hammer back, no sear engagement issues due to light trigger pull requirmenets. A hammer setup is more secure than a standard sear release setup.

2. VERY fast lock time. In a big bore gun, lock time must be as fast as possible. Examples go very fast designs now are any falling block design, or the Gilkes design. Very slow designs are the Barrett triggers, any of them.

3. VERY safe, round outside the gun is safe, the round cannot detonate unless the round is in the chamber, the block is locked, the hammer is cocked (which cannot occur without the operator pulling it back).

4. AS fast as a bolt design, it's all in the training and practice.

Trigger
 
#33
Re: Out of battery detonation!

Last year this happened

I would like to thank everyone who contacted me about my experience last week, your thoughts were very appreciated.

In case you didn't hear already, I had a round go off as I closed the bolt on my ALS. I am badly injured and it's going to be tough going for a while. As I prepared to fire the ninth shot of the day the round went off in my face. I usually push my glasses up to dust off and inspect the round as it goes from the AstroTurf mat to the chamber, I think the glasses were still above my eyes at the time.

When the bolt flew back it hit my thumb, breaking off both, the handle and the thumb. I received 3rd degree burns on my hand and a couple dozen pieces of metal shrapnel.

The bolt then hit the stock. The threaded ring on the lower receiver for the buffer tube and stock disintegrated, sending a 1" long piece of metal into my right eye, exploding it.

The broken stock drove into my right shoulder and chest. I have a 6" long wound between the armpit and the nipple. When it first happened the skin was so stretched and the hole so big I could have put my whole fist into it. I looked down into the hole and saw all kind of body parts I shouldn't have been seeing. I also noticed that the yellow fat bodies were way too numerous.

I ran to the truck, drove around but couldn't find anyone. I didn't have a cell signal so I decided to drive home. It took about 15 minutes to off road it through the desert. I was starting to lose consciousness by the time I hit the pavement. I didn't see anyone so I drove the last mile home. I called 911, locked my dogs and handgun in the house and sat on the front porch and waited.

The operator kept me awake while I waited, my left eye vision had narrowed to almost nothing. I don't know how much blood I lost but there are dried pools on the seat and floor in my truck waiting for me to feel better.

Now the bad part, all the things that are going to cost lots of money. I have some health insurance, but Nevada doesn't have disability insurance like most states. I had an ambulance ride, an ER visit, a helicopter ride, a half a day in the trauma center, MRIs, xrays and other tests, two surgeries, three nights in the hospital. I still need surgeries on my eye and my hand, with months of follow up appts.

I've been over all the possibilities that I could come up with as to a cause. The only thing that is making sense is the firing pin hitting the primer. For this to have caused it to go off as I pushed on the bolt I think the primer was defective.

If you have a way of doing it, how about some of you check primer sensitivity for me. Let me know if there is any variance in force needed for ignition.

I've ordered a new ALS receiver, I still think it's the best made. I just need to practice left handed shooting when I'm feeling better.
 
#34
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last year this happened

I would like to thank everyone who contacted me about my experience last week, your thoughts were very appreciated.

In case you didn't hear already, I had a round go off as I closed the bolt on my ALS. I am badly injured and it's going to be tough going for a while. As I prepared to fire the ninth shot of the day the round went off in my face. I usually push my glasses up to dust off and inspect the round as it goes from the AstroTurf mat to the chamber, I think the glasses were still above my eyes at the time.

When the bolt flew back it hit my thumb, breaking off both, the handle and the thumb. I received 3rd degree burns on my hand and a couple dozen pieces of metal shrapnel.

The bolt then hit the stock. The threaded ring on the lower receiver for the buffer tube and stock disintegrated, sending a 1" long piece of metal into my right eye, exploding it.

The broken stock drove into my right shoulder and chest. I have a 6" long wound between the armpit and the nipple. When it first happened the skin was so stretched and the hole so big I could have put my whole fist into it. I looked down into the hole and saw all kind of body parts I shouldn't have been seeing. I also noticed that the yellow fat bodies were way too numerous.

I ran to the truck, drove around but couldn't find anyone. I didn't have a cell signal so I decided to drive home. It took about 15 minutes to off road it through the desert. I was starting to lose consciousness by the time I hit the pavement. I didn't see anyone so I drove the last mile home. I called 911, locked my dogs and handgun in the house and sat on the front porch and waited.

The operator kept me awake while I waited, my left eye vision had narrowed to almost nothing. I don't know how much blood I lost but there are dried pools on the seat and floor in my truck waiting for me to feel better.

Now the bad part, all the things that are going to cost lots of money. I have some health insurance, but Nevada doesn't have disability insurance like most states. I had an ambulance ride, an ER visit, a helicopter ride, a half a day in the trauma center, MRIs, xrays and other tests, two surgeries, three nights in the hospital. I still need surgeries on my eye and my hand, with months of follow up appts.

I've been over all the possibilities that I could come up with as to a cause. The only thing that is making sense is the firing pin hitting the primer. For this to have caused it to go off as I pushed on the bolt I think the primer was defective.

If you have a way of doing it, how about some of you check primer sensitivity for me. Let me know if there is any variance in force needed for ignition.

I've ordered a new ALS receiver, I still think it's the best made. I just need to practice left handed shooting when I'm feeling better. </div></div>


holy shiiiittttttt.....glad you are alive there man.
 
#35
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes, it is a pipe gun, </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A pipe gun as I call it is a gun that uses an extruded aluminum reciever </div></div>


From the ALS web site:

"SOLID QUALITY

Our conversion receiver is made the old fashioned way - machined from solid steel. One piece construction on all critical components insure the highest quality and safety available for any 50 BMG conversion."

and:

" Bolt CNC Machined two locking lugs 1 ¼ AUS tempered
Action is CNC machined from solid bar stock"



Trigger - you keep calling this a 'pipegun' and yet unless I missing something (and it more than possible b/c I don't know much about how these are made) it doesn't seem to fit your definition of a 'pipegun'.


Darren is a home town boy and has turned me on to a couple of good spots to shoot. I wish him the best.




Good luck
 
#36
Re: Out of battery detonation!

CIMG3774.jpg


Heres my BOHICA MK3, machined out of a slod billet. Hardened (and huge) bolt lugs and bole handle, also using a soild machined steel single shot lower and a very heavy duty (for bolt blowing back) steel buffer tube. Bolt, receiver and lower receiver also have a vent hole for such things. The bolt also has a cam that WILL NOT let the hammer engage the firing pin unles bolt is locked. No tube gun and way over built in the right areas......
 
#37
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triggerfifty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A pipe gun as I call it is a gun that uses an extruded aluminum reciever with a press fit or screw fit barrel with a barrel extension that the bolt locking lugs interface with
Trigger </div></div>

Why are you bringing these up in a thread about a upper that does not even fall in your "pipe gun" category?
 
#38
Re: Out of battery detonation!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dgunn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last year this happened

I would like to thank everyone who contacted me about my experience last week, your thoughts were very appreciated.

In case you didn't hear already, I had a round go off as I closed the bolt on my ALS. I am badly injured and it's going to be tough going for a while. As I prepared to fire the ninth shot of the day the round went off in my face. I usually push my glasses up to dust off and inspect the round as it goes from the AstroTurf mat to the chamber, I think the glasses were still above my eyes at the time.

When the bolt flew back it hit my thumb, breaking off both, the handle and the thumb. I received 3rd degree burns on my hand and a couple dozen pieces of metal shrapnel.

The bolt then hit the stock. The threaded ring on the lower receiver for the buffer tube and stock disintegrated, sending a 1" long piece of metal into my right eye, exploding it.

The broken stock drove into my right shoulder and chest. I have a 6" long wound between the armpit and the nipple. When it first happened the skin was so stretched and the hole so big I could have put my whole fist into it. I looked down into the hole and saw all kind of body parts I shouldn't have been seeing. I also noticed that the yellow fat bodies were way too numerous.

I ran to the truck, drove around but couldn't find anyone. I didn't have a cell signal so I decided to drive home. It took about 15 minutes to off road it through the desert. I was starting to lose consciousness by the time I hit the pavement. I didn't see anyone so I drove the last mile home. I called 911, locked my dogs and handgun in the house and sat on the front porch and waited.

The operator kept me awake while I waited, my left eye vision had narrowed to almost nothing. I don't know how much blood I lost but there are dried pools on the seat and floor in my truck waiting for me to feel better.

Now the bad part, all the things that are going to cost lots of money. I have some health insurance, but Nevada doesn't have disability insurance like most states. I had an ambulance ride, an ER visit, a helicopter ride, a half a day in the trauma center, MRIs, xrays and other tests, two surgeries, three nights in the hospital. I still need surgeries on my eye and my hand, with months of follow up appts.

I've been over all the possibilities that I could come up with as to a cause. The only thing that is making sense is the firing pin hitting the primer. For this to have caused it to go off as I pushed on the bolt I think the primer was defective.

If you have a way of doing it, how about some of you check primer sensitivity for me. Let me know if there is any variance in force needed for ignition.

I've ordered a new ALS receiver, I still think it's the best made. I just need to practice left handed shooting when I'm feeling better. </div></div>


holy shiiiittttttt.....glad you are alive there man. </div></div>

I should of wrote the first sentence a little differently. Just to clear things up, this didn't happen to me. I remembered his post on the fcsa web site and posted it here so everybody could read what can happen when things go bad with a round this size. For the record I would never buy a ar15 chassis BMG ever. I own a Windrunner and a custom built on a BAT action, are these better built?? I don't know, I can say for sure I never want to find out.
 
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