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Gunsmithing out of round on OD Remington 700 action
- Thread starter NRAShooter
- Start date
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
OD is very inconsistent on the 700 actions, they are finished with a belt sander by hand.
OD is very inconsistent on the 700 actions, they are finished with a belt sander by hand.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
Yea, on all of them
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
Yea, on all of them
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
That's terrible. Is that why some folks glass bed their one piece scope mounts? I ended up using one of Darrrel Hollands adjustable "perfect picatinny mounts" but was wondering short of using that, what other options were available. Trueing the outside sounds unfeasible, so what do people do?
That's terrible. Is that why some folks glass bed their one piece scope mounts? I ended up using one of Darrrel Hollands adjustable "perfect picatinny mounts" but was wondering short of using that, what other options were available. Trueing the outside sounds unfeasible, so what do people do?
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's terrible. Is that why some folks glass bed their one piece scope mounts? I ended up using one of Darrrel Hollands adjustable "perfect picatinny mounts" but was wondering short of using that, what other options were available. Trueing the outside sounds unfeasible, <span style="font-weight: bold">so what do people do?</span> </div></div>
Thus the growth of a cottage industry....... companies building "custom" M700 clone actions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's terrible. Is that why some folks glass bed their one piece scope mounts? I ended up using one of Darrrel Hollands adjustable "perfect picatinny mounts" but was wondering short of using that, what other options were available. Trueing the outside sounds unfeasible, <span style="font-weight: bold">so what do people do?</span> </div></div>
Thus the growth of a cottage industry....... companies building "custom" M700 clone actions.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
Yea, on all of them </div></div>
yup...all of themmm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
Yea, on all of them </div></div>
yup...all of themmm
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
That is why I argue that aluminum V blocks still need bedding.
Ive wondered about truing the OD using a precision tool grinder with the action rotating on its raceway. Doesn't seem like it'd be worth it though. You'll get more from bedding.
About the OD being finished with a belt sander... are you sure? Ive seen texture on a factory action that couldnt have come from a belt sander. Maybe they put the texture on after sanding. I dunno.
I really dont think the bridge and ring(where the rail attaches) are sanded in by hand. If that were the case no rail would fit right, instead of just 25% of them not fitting right.
Would love to get a tour of Remington sometime and watch their process.
That is why I argue that aluminum V blocks still need bedding.
Ive wondered about truing the OD using a precision tool grinder with the action rotating on its raceway. Doesn't seem like it'd be worth it though. You'll get more from bedding.
About the OD being finished with a belt sander... are you sure? Ive seen texture on a factory action that couldnt have come from a belt sander. Maybe they put the texture on after sanding. I dunno.
I really dont think the bridge and ring(where the rail attaches) are sanded in by hand. If that were the case no rail would fit right, instead of just 25% of them not fitting right.
Would love to get a tour of Remington sometime and watch their process.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About the OD being finished with a belt sander... are you sure? </div></div>
I may have been mistaken. I have seen video of one of the major manufacturers finishing out the top of a receiver with a belt sander by hand. I apologise if I passed on any misinformation.
*Edit* I think I was correct, scroll down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About the OD being finished with a belt sander... are you sure? </div></div>
I may have been mistaken. I have seen video of one of the major manufacturers finishing out the top of a receiver with a belt sander by hand. I apologise if I passed on any misinformation.
*Edit* I think I was correct, scroll down.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
I just watched a video of the Remington factory where someone was finishing the rear tang on a 700 with a grinder. Sparks were flying! I am almost 100% sure now that I have seen them doing the tops of the actions on the same machine. That would explain the inconsistent fit of scope bases.
I just watched a video of the Remington factory where someone was finishing the rear tang on a 700 with a grinder. Sparks were flying! I am almost 100% sure now that I have seen them doing the tops of the actions on the same machine. That would explain the inconsistent fit of scope bases.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
We put three different ones on the CMM.
Four of us checked them.
Many points.
All agreed our numbers didn't do to blending on back.
The front is better, but not like it was ground from the start.
You can build a Remmy or shoot others.
Nothing against them.
More than held my own on a 600 yd course with 308 sporter and old 2-8 Lupey.
I had a good day.
We put three different ones on the CMM.
Four of us checked them.
Many points.
All agreed our numbers didn't do to blending on back.
The front is better, but not like it was ground from the start.
You can build a Remmy or shoot others.
Nothing against them.
More than held my own on a 600 yd course with 308 sporter and old 2-8 Lupey.
I had a good day.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
I've worked on 4 remington receivers... so I've seen it 4 times.
So much for interchangeable parts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever run into anything like this? </div></div>
I've worked on 4 remington receivers... so I've seen it 4 times.
So much for interchangeable parts.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it.
any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it. </div></div>
If you don't already have a M700 donor action waiting for a project, then get a custom action. After buying the donor action and truing and adding this/that, you wouldn't have saved much money over buying custom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it. </div></div>
If you don't already have a M700 donor action waiting for a project, then get a custom action. After buying the donor action and truing and adding this/that, you wouldn't have saved much money over buying custom.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
All the ones I have checked were out of round and not concentric to the bore.
All the ones I have checked were out of round and not concentric to the bore.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
In second hand accounts from the past, I've read that the 40X receivers were ground on a precision mandrel between centers until at least the bottom half of the action was true. It was found this contributed to the accuracy of the rifle. That may have been back far enough that the forward scope block was mounted on the barrel for use with externally adjusted scopes, so the top may not have mattered as much.
In second hand accounts from the past, I've read that the 40X receivers were ground on a precision mandrel between centers until at least the bottom half of the action was true. It was found this contributed to the accuracy of the rifle. That may have been back far enough that the forward scope block was mounted on the barrel for use with externally adjusted scopes, so the top may not have mattered as much.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if the M24's have this problem too? </div></div>
Most likely. But is it such a problem? Most people concerned with accuracy bed their gun for a stress free fit regardless of the O.D size.
+ 1 for AZPrecision.
I agree that aluminum blocks should still be bedded for a stress free fit. The bedding blocks are not perfect and neither is the action O.D which would only contribute to more stress IMOP.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if the M24's have this problem too? </div></div>
Most likely. But is it such a problem? Most people concerned with accuracy bed their gun for a stress free fit regardless of the O.D size.
+ 1 for AZPrecision.
I agree that aluminum blocks should still be bedded for a stress free fit. The bedding blocks are not perfect and neither is the action O.D which would only contribute to more stress IMOP.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bedding the base is the only good option. </div></div>
Not quite.
Lapping the base to the receiver works also and offers a true 1:1 metal to metal fit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it.</div></div>
Here is the deal on this. You can't fix this problem with a drill. Drills take the path of least resistance. If there's a hole, it's going to attempt to locate off of its center and just make a crooked hole bigger.
It leaves you with two choices:
1. In a manual machine you get yourself a micro boring bar, indicate off the centerline of the bore axis, and enlarge the holes to accept #8-40 base screws.
2. In my case (cnc mill) I write code to direct a 1/8" endmill to interpolate the hole to the #8-40 thread pitch.
In either of these two cases the point is the tool does not give a rats behind how off center the hole is. Assuming the machine is in good shape and the machinist is competent it will make a nice round bore on the correct location.
The ultimate followup on this is to thread mill the base holes as it too will run on center. Thread milling is using a small "chinese star" shaped tool that mills the threads single point style sort of like a lathe. Taps, like drills take the path of least resistance although if your setup is rock solid and you use quality tooling the location accuracy will be quite good.
Things to avoid: Cast aluminum fixtures marketed by certain companies that advertise this service as being a "no brainer" using only a drill press.
FWIW A .005" location error between the front/rear base hole on a M700 short action translates into a 3 and a half minute shift on paper. That's over 35" at 1000 yards. (35.309" for the technical people)
That's more windage than I'd like to burn up on a scope getting things timed up.
Just sayin.
Hope this helps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bedding the base is the only good option. </div></div>
Not quite.
Lapping the base to the receiver works also and offers a true 1:1 metal to metal fit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any good posts on bedding bases? My receiver appears both out of round and has misaligned scope mount holes. The Holland base fixed all of this, but I am thinking of buying a long action magnum and am starting to think it may be better just to buy a Pierce or similar action and be done with it.</div></div>
Here is the deal on this. You can't fix this problem with a drill. Drills take the path of least resistance. If there's a hole, it's going to attempt to locate off of its center and just make a crooked hole bigger.
It leaves you with two choices:
1. In a manual machine you get yourself a micro boring bar, indicate off the centerline of the bore axis, and enlarge the holes to accept #8-40 base screws.
2. In my case (cnc mill) I write code to direct a 1/8" endmill to interpolate the hole to the #8-40 thread pitch.
In either of these two cases the point is the tool does not give a rats behind how off center the hole is. Assuming the machine is in good shape and the machinist is competent it will make a nice round bore on the correct location.
The ultimate followup on this is to thread mill the base holes as it too will run on center. Thread milling is using a small "chinese star" shaped tool that mills the threads single point style sort of like a lathe. Taps, like drills take the path of least resistance although if your setup is rock solid and you use quality tooling the location accuracy will be quite good.
Things to avoid: Cast aluminum fixtures marketed by certain companies that advertise this service as being a "no brainer" using only a drill press.
FWIW A .005" location error between the front/rear base hole on a M700 short action translates into a 3 and a half minute shift on paper. That's over 35" at 1000 yards. (35.309" for the technical people)
That's more windage than I'd like to burn up on a scope getting things timed up.
Just sayin.
Hope this helps.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
EDITED: whoops posted in the wrong thread.
Chad I wish I had your equipment! Id have to hire someone who knew how to run it.
EDITED: whoops posted in the wrong thread.
Chad I wish I had your equipment! Id have to hire someone who knew how to run it.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
So its lap the reciever, bed the base or use the Holland base. What about turning the receiver?
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
Still looking of an answer on the M24.
anyone??
So its lap the reciever, bed the base or use the Holland base. What about turning the receiver?
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
Still looking of an answer on the M24.
anyone??
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still looking of an answer on the M24.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, what was done with the M40? </div></div>
my guess is, nothing. the amount an oem remington receiver is out of round is insignificant for what those rifles are used for. it is also insignificant to what most of us use our rifles for too. i was the top long range shooter for our local club last year with an out of round remington receiver <span style="font-style: italic">stressed</span> into an unbedded aics. not too much happens in real life that the difference between a rifle that has the potential to shoot 3/8" groups and one that has the potential to shoot 1/4" groups will change.
if i were shooting benchrest, i doubt i'd be using a remington action in the first place. for field and tactical match use, i think they can work great, out of round od and all.
edit: i want to clarify that i don't mean to imply that grinding a remington receiver perfectly round would improve it's accuracy potential .125", or it's accuracy potential at all. i flat out don't know. i'm simply saying they are good enough to accomplish most anything we are interested in when reading this site.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still looking of an answer on the M24.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, what was done with the M40? </div></div>
my guess is, nothing. the amount an oem remington receiver is out of round is insignificant for what those rifles are used for. it is also insignificant to what most of us use our rifles for too. i was the top long range shooter for our local club last year with an out of round remington receiver <span style="font-style: italic">stressed</span> into an unbedded aics. not too much happens in real life that the difference between a rifle that has the potential to shoot 3/8" groups and one that has the potential to shoot 1/4" groups will change.
if i were shooting benchrest, i doubt i'd be using a remington action in the first place. for field and tactical match use, i think they can work great, out of round od and all.
edit: i want to clarify that i don't mean to imply that grinding a remington receiver perfectly round would improve it's accuracy potential .125", or it's accuracy potential at all. i flat out don't know. i'm simply saying they are good enough to accomplish most anything we are interested in when reading this site.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
</div></div>
Buy an aftermarket "custom" 700 clone.
Surgeon. Integral lug and rail. Worth the money.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
</div></div>
Buy an aftermarket "custom" 700 clone.
Surgeon. Integral lug and rail. Worth the money.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
I have a Surgeon GAP 260. I was just hoping I could get a M24 or M40 build on a remmy. I know Remmys can shoot as most the guys I shoot with have Eliseo R5s on Remington actions.
I have a Surgeon GAP 260. I was just hoping I could get a M24 or M40 build on a remmy. I know Remmys can shoot as most the guys I shoot with have Eliseo R5s on Remington actions.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
Then to answer the question, I dont think so.
You can buy Remington actions without a barrel, but they will be just as out of spec as any other Remy.
Then to answer the question, I dont think so.
You can buy Remington actions without a barrel, but they will be just as out of spec as any other Remy.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
anyone?? </div></div>
I believe Pierce Engineering makes a Tubegun specific receiver.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is it possible to buy receivers which are unbarreled and not not too much out of spec???
anyone?? </div></div>
I believe Pierce Engineering makes a Tubegun specific receiver.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
Isn't this why Surgeon Actions came to be?
I want one of their actions, just haven't wanted to spend the $$ on it yet.
Isn't this why Surgeon Actions came to be?
I want one of their actions, just haven't wanted to spend the $$ on it yet.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
want to resurrect this because I have the same problem and would like to hear from anyone with experience with the holland base. For example how is it adjustable for windage. thanks
want to resurrect this because I have the same problem and would like to hear from anyone with experience with the holland base. For example how is it adjustable for windage. thanks
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
has no one addressed the chop-sawed end of the receiver,,,,?
has no one addressed the chop-sawed end of the receiver,,,,?
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
geeze this really didn't do much to answer my question. anyone else got some info?
geeze this really didn't do much to answer my question. anyone else got some info?
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dwd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">geeze this really didn't do much to answer my question. anyone else got some info?</div></div>
Sure, several people had info: buy a base that supposedly "adjusts" to allow for variation over the outer surface of the action...
OR bed the base. Glass bed is pretty straightforward and requires less material, etc, than does equivalent skim bedding on an aluminum bedding block because you are only bedding the contact surfaces between the base and the rifle action.
Was there a particular reasonable this choice set was not suitable?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dwd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">geeze this really didn't do much to answer my question. anyone else got some info?</div></div>
Sure, several people had info: buy a base that supposedly "adjusts" to allow for variation over the outer surface of the action...
OR bed the base. Glass bed is pretty straightforward and requires less material, etc, than does equivalent skim bedding on an aluminum bedding block because you are only bedding the contact surfaces between the base and the rifle action.
Was there a particular reasonable this choice set was not suitable?
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
I was looking for some feedback on the holland base in particular and whether it was windage adjustable without gunsmithing. NRA shooter PM'd me since I posted with his experience.
I was looking for some feedback on the holland base in particular and whether it was windage adjustable without gunsmithing. NRA shooter PM'd me since I posted with his experience.
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
Remington receivers = poor quality in my experience. bought my first Remington in March. have had nothing but problems trying to mount a scope on it up to 3.5 months later. even sent it back to Remington's outsourced gunsmith. will never buy another Remington again.
Remington receivers = poor quality in my experience. bought my first Remington in March. have had nothing but problems trying to mount a scope on it up to 3.5 months later. even sent it back to Remington's outsourced gunsmith. will never buy another Remington again.
A
atreeman
Guest
Re: out of round on OD Remington 700 action
In reply to the OP: yes one of the smiths over here regularly surface grinds o/d concentric with the bolt raceway as part of his blueprinting process on remis.
Here: http://www.specialistrifleservices.co.uk/blue.html
He has a pure engineering background and is a stickler for detail.
Regards
G
In reply to the OP: yes one of the smiths over here regularly surface grinds o/d concentric with the bolt raceway as part of his blueprinting process on remis.
Here: http://www.specialistrifleservices.co.uk/blue.html
He has a pure engineering background and is a stickler for detail.
Regards
G
