Rifle Scopes P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

[thefitter]

I'm real curious to know how the P4F looks on the lowest magnification setting. How visible is it?

Anyone have any pics?

Opinions?

Thanks

 

[dpreston]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

dont have a pic handy, but at 5x on my 5-25 I have no problem seeing it. It does get thin, but still easily seen. However, I rarely use it at its lowest power. Usually 7-8x is as low as I go with it.

 

[Rob01]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

5x looking at 400 yards. You can actually see it better in person.

 

[thefitter]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

Thanks.

Is it always the same size at the lowest magnification?

Meaning are the dimensions going to the same at 3 on a 3-12 as at 5 on a 5-25 or at 12 on a 12-50?

And in a SFP? Where it never changes.

For instance the spec sheet says the cross hairs are .06" thick.

 

[dpreston]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

each power should look the same in each scope. So 12x would look identical in each of the three scopes you mentioned if they are FFP

 

[thefitter]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

Thanks. I know how FFP works. That's not what I'm asking.

I'm only interested in the dimensions on the lowest settings. Or the dimensions on a SFP.

Does it always start out at the same dimension?

Or are you saying that even though it's the lowest setting on a 12-50 it will look as thick as the 12 on a 3?

So the 12-50 starts out thick?

Jeez I hope everyone knows what I'm asking because I'm starting to confuse myself by writing it.

Let me ask it this way:

Is the reticule on a 12-50 SFP going to look like the reticule as it does on the lowest setting of a FFP?

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is the reticule on a 12-50 SFP going to look like the reticule as it does on the lowest setting of a FFP? </div></div>

Nope, as the power level increases on a FFP the reticle will become thicker while regardless the power level on a SFP it stays the same if that's what you were asking. If the target is 3 mils wide or tall at 3x it will remain 3 mils wide or tall at max power which I believe is what dpreston was referring to.

Flyingbullseye

 

[thefitter]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

Let me try it this way:

Scope #1 3-12 FFP
Scope #2 12-50 SFP

Will the reticule thickness at 12 power on the <span style="font-weight: bold">SFP</span> look the same as the reticule thickness at 12 power on the <span style="font-weight: bold">FFP?</span>

Thanks

 

[Rob01]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

No experience with the SFP reticles in S&Bs. Sorry.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

I understand Fitter's question. Unfortunately I will never be able to afford any of these scopes, so I can't help.

 

[thefitter]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lennyo3034</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand Fitter's question. Unfortunately I will never be able to afford any of these scopes, so I can't help. </div></div>

Oh thank GOD! I thought I was loosing my mind last night.

 

[dieselten]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me try it this way:

Scope #1 3-12 FFP
Scope #2 12-50 SFP

Will the reticule thickness at 12 power on the <span style="font-weight: bold">SFP</span> look the same as the reticule thickness at 12 power on the <span style="font-weight: bold">FFP?</span>

Thanks </div></div>

The SFP 12-50 MILS at 50x, so at 12x the reticle will subtend much much more than the reticle of the 3-12 at 12x - so it will appear much thicker.

 

[Aries64]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks.

Is it always the same size at the lowest magnification?

Meaning are the dimensions going to the same at 3 on a 3-12 as at 5 on a 5-25 or at 12 on a 12-50?

And in a SFP? Where it never changes.

For instance the spec sheet says the cross hairs are .06" thick.

</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dpreston</div><div class="ubbcode-body">each power should look the same in each scope. So 12x would look identical in each of the three scopes you mentioned if they are FFP </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks. I know how FFP works. That's not what I'm asking.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #FF0000">To "thefitter"</span></span></span>,

With respect, this reply to you IS NOT meant to belittle you in any way. I quote your words in the hope that you can benefit from direct replies to what you said, and that they will be taken and understood within that context. That said, while you say <span style="font-style: italic">"I know how FFP works"</span>, the questions that you're asking and the manner in which you've phrased them suggest that you DO NOT understand how a FFP reticle works. If you did, you would not be asking the questions that you've asked in this thread.

<span style="font-style: italic">For instance:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Is it always the same size at the lowest magnification?

Meaning are the dimensions going to the same at 3 on a 3-12 as at 5 on a 5-25 or at 12 on a 12-50?
</div></div>
While a FFP's reticle is always proportionately correct in relation to the object(s) be viewed, the apparent size and thickness of the reticle cannot remain static. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Visually</span></span>, the reticle will change size as you zoom up and down the magnification range, BUT IT DOES SO IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO THE OBJECT(S) BEING VIEWED. This is why a FFP's measurements are accurate regardless of magnification setting.

Two FFP reticles of the same design specifications at different magnifications cannot appear to be the same apparent size and thickness, even though their subtensions are accurate at their respective magnifications. This distinction should be obvious to anyone who understands how FFP reticles work.

<span style="font-style: italic">And also:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And in a SFP? Where it never changes.

For instance the spec sheet says the cross hairs are .06" thick.
</div></div>
More examples of questions and statements from you that suggest that you do not understand how reticle placement affects the reticle's appearance and subtensions. You said, <span style="font-style: italic">"And in a SFP? Where it never changes."</span> If you know that SFP reticles do not change apparent size or subtension (which they don't), why are you asking if the reticle thickness changes?

The reticles in SFP scopes remain the same size, and as a result their subtensions are only accurate at one magnification. The only way the reticles in FFP and SFP scopes could appear the same size and indeed subtend the same would be if you could dial the FFP scope's magnification to the exact, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">actual</span></span> magnification that the SFP scope's reticle is calibrated to.

SFP scopes' are usually calibrated at maximum magnification. This is the case with the SFP version of the P4FL 12.5-50X 56mm PMII that you referenced in your <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"S&B P4F reticule thickness?"</span></span> thread. Wow. .06" is very fine - only 1.524mm. That is even thinner than a Gen 2 XR reticle, which is .075"/1.905mm at 100 yards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm only interested in the dimensions on the lowest settings. Or the dimensions on a SFP.</div></div>
I don't know how thick the FFP reticle will appear at the lower magnifications - I've never bothered to figure them out for my 5-25X Gen 2 XR because I rarely use it below 10X, and use it most often above 12X.

Again, as I stated above earlier, the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SPF reticle is calibrated at 50X - thats' the main thing you need to know. S & B emailed you the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SPF reticle specifications sheet, so you just need a calculator to roughly figure-out the SFP's subtensions at powers lower than 50X.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it always start out at the same dimension?</div></div>
Once again, a SFP reticle doesn't change.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or are you saying that even though it's the lowest setting on a 12-50 it will look as thick as the 12 on a 3?</div></div>
You cannot compare the two directly - there are PMII 12.5-50X 56mm and 3-12X 50mm scopes, so you cannot "match" magnifications. <span style="font-style: italic">Theorietically</span>, if you could somehow dial the 3-12X to 12.5X to "match" the magnification of the 12.5-50X, and both are FFP scopes then the reticles <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> subtend the same. However, <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> magnifications often don't work out to perfect whole or half powers, so manufacturers often round-up or round-down a magnification spec. There can also be minor variations from scope-to-scope.

If you had a 3-12X FFP scope and a 12.5-50X SFP scope, even if you could dial the 3-12X FFP up an extra half power to 12.5X, the 12.5X FFP reticle still wouldn't be close in appearance to a 12.5X SFP reticle because the SFP PMII 12.5-50X 56mm's reticle is calibrated at 50X. The 12.5X FFP reticle would still appear much smaller than the 12.5-50X SFP reticle because the SFP scope's reticle is calibrated at 50X.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the 12-50 starts out thick?</div></div>
A FFP 12.5-50X will start-out smaller and increase in appearance and dimensions in direct proportion to the object(s) being viewed.

A SFP reticle will already be at the maximum size of the FFP 12.5-50X because the reticle is calibrated at 50X. Its' really very simple.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeez I hope everyone knows what I'm asking because I'm starting to confuse myself by writing it.</div></div>
.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask it this way:

Is the reticule on a 12-50 SFP going to look like the reticule as it does on the lowest setting of a FFP? </div></div>
Again, NO. The reticle of the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SFP is calibrated (accurate) at 50X, so the reticle of the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm FFP it will only be the same apparent size and and subtend the same when dialed to maximum magnification (50X).

As an example, take a look at the two PMII 5-25X reticle diagrams below. The diagram on the top is a FFP P4L. The diagram on the bottom is a SFP P4L. Both are shown at 25X, which is why the reticles are the same apparent size and the subtensions are identical.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII 5-25X P4L FFP reticle diagram:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII 5-25X P4L SFP reticle diagram:</span></span>

Both of these diagrams and more are listed in the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"PMII User Manual"</span></span> I linked you to two days ago. I hope this helps.


Keith

 

[thefitter]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks.

Is it always the same size at the lowest magnification?

Meaning are the dimensions going to the same at 3 on a 3-12 as at 5 on a 5-25 or at 12 on a 12-50?

And in a SFP? Where it never changes.

For instance the spec sheet says the cross hairs are .06" thick.

</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dpreston</div><div class="ubbcode-body">each power should look the same in each scope. So 12x would look identical in each of the three scopes you mentioned if they are FFP </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks. I know how FFP works. That's not what I'm asking.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #FF0000">To "thefitter"</span></span></span>,

With respect, this reply to you IS NOT meant to belittle you in any way. I quote your words in the hope that you can benefit from direct replies to what you said, and that they will be taken and understood within that context. That said, while you say <span style="font-style: italic">"I know how FFP works"</span>, the questions that you're asking and the manner in which you've phrased them suggest that you DO NOT understand how a FFP reticle works. If you did, you would not be asking the questions that you've asked in this thread.

<span style="font-style: italic">For instance:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Is it always the same size at the lowest magnification?

Meaning are the dimensions going to the same at 3 on a 3-12 as at 5 on a 5-25 or at 12 on a 12-50?
</div></div>
While a FFP's reticle is always proportionately correct in relation to the object(s) be viewed, the apparent size and thickness of the reticle cannot remain static. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Visually</span></span>, the reticle will change size as you zoom up and down the magnification range, BUT IT DOES SO IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO THE OBJECT(S) BEING VIEWED. This is why a FFP's measurements are accurate regardless of magnification setting.

Two FFP reticles of the same design specifications at different magnifications cannot appear to be the same apparent size and thickness, even though their subtensions are accurate at their respective magnifications. This distinction should be obvious to anyone who understands how FFP reticles work.

<span style="font-style: italic">And also:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And in a SFP? Where it never changes.

For instance the spec sheet says the cross hairs are .06" thick.
</div></div>
More examples of questions and statements from you that suggest that you do not understand how reticle placement affects the reticle's appearance and subtensions. You said, <span style="font-style: italic">"And in a SFP? Where it never changes."</span> If you know that SFP reticles do not change apparent size or subtension (which they don't), why are you asking if the reticle thickness changes?

The reticles in SFP scopes remain the same size, and as a result their subtensions are only accurate at one magnification. The only way the reticles in FFP and SFP scopes could appear the same size and indeed subtend the same would be if you could dial the FFP scope's magnification to the exact, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">actual</span></span> magnification that the SFP scope's reticle is calibrated to.

SFP scopes' are usually calibrated at maximum magnification. This is the case with the SFP version of the P4FL 12.5-50X 56mm PMII that you referenced in your <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"S&B P4F reticule thickness?"</span></span> thread. Wow. .06" is very fine - only 1.524mm. That is even thinner than a Gen 2 XR reticle, which is .075"/1.905mm at 100 yards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm only interested in the dimensions on the lowest settings. Or the dimensions on a SFP.</div></div>
I don't know how thick the FFP reticle will appear at the lower magnifications - I've never bothered to figure them out for my 5-25X Gen 2 XR because I rarely use it below 10X, and use it most often above 12X.

Again, as I stated above earlier, the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SPF reticle is calibrated at 50X - thats' the main thing you need to know. S & B emailed you the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SPF reticle specifications sheet, so you just need a calculator to roughly figure-out the SFP's subtensions at powers lower than 50X.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it always start out at the same dimension?</div></div>
Once again, a SFP reticle doesn't change.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or are you saying that even though it's the lowest setting on a 12-50 it will look as thick as the 12 on a 3?</div></div>
You cannot compare the two directly - there are PMII 12.5-50X 56mm and 3-12X 50mm scopes, so you cannot "match" magnifications. <span style="font-style: italic">Theorietically</span>, if you could somehow dial the 3-12X to 12.5X to "match" the magnification of the 12.5-50X, and both are FFP scopes then the reticles <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> subtend the same. However, <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> magnifications often don't work out to perfect whole or half powers, so manufacturers often round-up or round-down a magnification spec. There can also be minor variations from scope-to-scope.

If you had a 3-12X FFP scope and a 12.5-50X SFP scope, even if you could dial the 3-12X FFP up an extra half power to 12.5X, the 12.5X FFP reticle still wouldn't be close in appearance to a 12.5X SFP reticle because the SFP PMII 12.5-50X 56mm's reticle is calibrated at 50X. The 12.5X FFP reticle would still appear much smaller than the 12.5-50X SFP reticle because the SFP scope's reticle is calibrated at 50X.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the 12-50 starts out thick?</div></div>
A FFP 12.5-50X will start-out smaller and increase in appearance and dimensions in direct proportion to the object(s) being viewed.

A SFP reticle will already be at the maximum size of the FFP 12.5-50X because the reticle is calibrated at 50X. Its' really very simple.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeez I hope everyone knows what I'm asking because I'm starting to confuse myself by writing it.</div></div>
.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask it this way:

Is the reticule on a 12-50 SFP going to look like the reticule as it does on the lowest setting of a FFP? </div></div>
Again, NO. The reticle of the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm SFP is calibrated (accurate) at 50X, so the reticle of the PMII 12.5-50X 56mm FFP it will only be the same apparent size and and subtend the same when dialed to maximum magnification (50X).

As an example, take a look at the two PMII 5-25X reticle diagrams below. The diagram on the top is a FFP P4L. The diagram on the bottom is a SFP P4L. Both are shown at 25X, which is why the reticles are the same apparent size and the subtensions are identical.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII 5-25X P4L FFP reticle diagram:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII 5-25X P4L SFP reticle diagram:</span></span>

Both of these diagrams and more are listed in the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"PMII User Manual"</span></span> I linked you to two days ago. I hope this helps.


Keith </div></div>

Wow, thanks for the effort! But that's not what I was asking.

Anyway I got it figured out thanks to a very helpful guy from Premier Reticule and Alex at Euro Optics.

 

[bm11]

Re: P4F on lowest setting - PICS??

From what I know, the p4f reticle is the same for all scopes it is available in.

Meaning- on a 3-12, 4-16, and 5-25, it will look exactly the same on all three scopes at any given power within the common magnification range (5-12x.)