Rifle Scopes Paritally illuminated reticle

[Flyingbullseye]

Question regarding the various scopes with the partially illuminated reticles such as the IOR MP8 or a S&B. What's the advantage/point to only having just the dot or point of corsshair intersection only lit? If its getting dark (or in places legal to hunt at night) say for hunters I would only imagine it become difficult to range with only the small point lit. If these tactical scopes are used in the military I can only assume some sort of NV would be used but outside of that, why?

Flyingbullseye

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

Just the way they are designed. I don't see many hunters miling targets at night. A range card or laser would be a better option either at night or daytime for that matter. Military would use lasers to range also. For holds it might make it a little harder but if the target is illuminated enough and you can see the target well enough to take the shot then you can see the reticle whether it's illuminated or not. The MST-100 wasn't illuminated at all but the Marines used it just fine. I am sure they don't mind just having the center of their S&B's illuminated.

On the S&B it's about .8 mils in the center that is lit and gives enough illumination to use on a target. Here's an actual picture to show you how much would be illuminated.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

That's about really my ONLY dissappointment with my S&B 5-25. The inability to hold over/windage beyond that .8 mil makes it pretty worthless for night use. I could live without the elevation because I can dial, but its not that uncommon to hold 2-3 mils of wind depending on the range. Also, with no elevation illum, you are pretty much forced to dial at night rather than just holdover for a quick shot.

I have a friend who shot in a night Tac match recently with his S&B and he said it sucked for exactly that reason.

Other than that, the scope is incredible in every other way.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

You can dial wind on too Reaper

Seriously though, with some practice it's really easy to be able to use the reticle at night because as I said if the target is lit well enough to take the shot then you will be able to see the reticle. I have used the 5-25 shooting night movers with very good success. If at night my target is so dark I can't see the reticle then I am not going to take the shot as I can't safely ID it.

 

[lvmike]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just the way they are designed. I don't see many hunters miling targets at night. A range card or laser would be a better option either at night or daytime for that matter. Military would use lasers to range also. For holds it might make it a little harder but if the target is illuminated enough and you can see the target well enough to take the shot then you can see the reticle whether it's illuminated or not. The MST-100 wasn't illuminated at all but the Marines used it just fine. I am sure they don't mind just having the center of their S&B's illuminated.

On the S&B it's about .8 mils in the center that is lit and gives enough illumination to use on a target. Here's an actual picture to show you how much would be illuminated.

</div></div>

in theory I agree-- in actual use, in matches, I disagree. It is less
about milling and more about hold overs and wind holds. The p4fs two weakest points for a competitive shooter are the lack of half mil stadia inside the first mil and center only illum. Half mil marks are useful as inside 500y I am usually under 1mil in wind hold and center only illum makes it a bit more difficult to verify you have the correct elevation holdover when only the target is lit and it's surroundings to not alot easy acquisition of the rest of the reticle. I agree for a mil/police sniper these are probably non-issues but Im not going to make assumptions about something I don't know shit about. The klein reticle seems like a better all around choice.

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it?

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it? </div></div>

Yes they are and only the center illuminates in theirs as well. I have one in a 5-25 that I have used for a few years before getting the P4F.

Guess I need to shoot more matches to see the weaknesses

 

[Swan]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it? </div></div>

Yes they are and only the center illuminates in theirs as well.

Guess I need to shoot more matches to see the weaknesses

</div></div>

I think his point was that there are several better reticles out there for holdovers under .8mil (being the first real reference point on P4f).

 

[lvmike]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it? </div></div>

Yes they are and only the center illuminates in theirs as well.

Guess I need to shoot more matches to see the weaknesses

</div></div>

interesting, is it due to light escaping the front objective and being visible through night vision-- as Ive heard another respected manufacturer claim...?

Lol, I'm just saying that it was a complaint I had after a night stage that holding over would be beneficial and the P4F gave me more difficulty then a reticle like the Gen2XR would.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

I know what he was saying Swan and I was just playing around. But my point was it's not as big of a deal in practice as it is in theory. A .5 mil hold is easy enough to eye inside the first mil. I do it all the time and did it this past weekend at the BHTC Team match.

Yes it would be nice to have it in there but they might have purposely left it out as not to crowd the aiming point or possibly due to the illumination. That's just my guesses as to why. Might be another reason altogether.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

LVMike, glad you didn't take it personally as it wasn't meant that way. I see what you are saying and would it be nicer to have a fully illuminated reticle? Sure but the reticle is very usable as is.

As to why the Marine's scopes are like that again I would bet it's due to the S&B illumination design more than light escaping but I could be wrong.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

Having bitched about the P4F reticle, you'll have to pry that scope out of my cold, dead fingers before I get rid of it. It is a little bundle of goodness!

 

[Swan]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

Yes, even with that shitty reticle, I still want one.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

LOL

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

Marines are also using 4-16s with Horus reticles..they have elevation holdovers illuminated along with the center. I beleive the klein will be fully illuminated.

 

[lvmike]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LVMike, glad you didn't take it personally as it wasn't meant that way. I see what you are saying and would it be nicer to have a fully illuminated reticle? Sure but the reticle is very usable as is.

As to why the Marine's scopes are like that again I would bet it's due to the S&B illumination design more than light escaping but I could be wrong. </div></div>

nah, I read ya right off the bat and chuckled when I realized how that sounded

have you had a chance to look through the Klein? I'm curious how it works in a 5-25 but haven't seen one in person yet...

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

I did briefly sometime ago but not sure about the illumination. Lowlight has one in a 4-16x so maybe he will chime in.

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

I'm not big on illuminated reticles, they tend to make your cross hairs thicker. One more thing to break or allow water to leak in when I lose my battery cap. we would probably be running a UNS or thermal of some sort anyways.

 

[Plange]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it? </div></div>

Yes they are and only the center illuminates in theirs as well. I have one in a 5-25 that I have used for a few years before getting the P4F.

Guess I need to shoot more matches to see the weaknesses

</div></div>


Actually USMC are using the Gen II not the Gen II XR. The Gen II has just the center cross hair lit, the Gen II XR has some of the hold over points lit and the large cross is lit.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not big on illuminated reticles, they tend to make your cross hairs thicker. One more thing to break or allow water to leak in when I lose my battery cap. we would probably be running a UNS or thermal of some sort anyways. </div></div>

Bigger? like in what scope reticle is that you refer to? Ziess/hensoldts reticles all look the same, regardless of ilum or not,

S&B the same and so forth,

is it some marginal scope brand that we are talking about?

Well I guess that some really thin SFP reticles can not be had ilum that is not a problem in my book.


To the original thread starter, I have a Zeiss reticle O for night use, it is only a red dot, that´s it,

allows me to focus on target alinement and other things, my low light shots are almost always with in established parameters or othervise known ranges and or also with in the range of were adjustments for wind/range is not an issue.

/Chris

 

[Rob01]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plange</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LVMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Aren't the marines using s&bs with a gen2xl ret in it? </div></div>

Yes they are and only the center illuminates in theirs as well. I have one in a 5-25 that I have used for a few years before getting the P4F.

Guess I need to shoot more matches to see the weaknesses

</div></div>


Actually USMC are using the Gen II not the Gen II XR. The Gen II has just the center cross hair lit, the Gen II XR has some of the hold over points lit and the large cross is lit.</div></div>

My bad. Sorry about that.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Re: Paritally illuminated reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swedish guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bigger? like in what scope reticle is that you refer to? Ziess/hensoldts reticles all look the same, regardless of ilum or not,

S&B the same and so forth,

is it some marginal scope brand that we are talking about?

Well I guess that some really thin SFP reticles can not be had ilum that is not a problem in my book.


To the original thread starter, I have a Zeiss reticle O for night use, it is only a red dot, that´s it,

allows me to focus on target alinement and other things, my low light shots are almost always with in established parameters or othervise known ranges and or also within the range of were adjustments for wind/range is not an issue.

/Chris </div></div>

Any issues trying to decide if say you are looking at a branch or the reticle? I guess I kind of saw it as odd especially on high end scopes like S&B, IOR. I don't hunt but figured some here or elsewhere would hunt with the same scope they target shoot with. At low light you'd think one would have a problem either ranging a target or deciding if in fact they are looking at part of the holdover reticle. I'm new to the tactical (hate using that term) part of the scopes and just saw it as odd or short sighted and wasn't sure if I was just not seeing some sort of advantage to only the point of intersection lit.

Flyingbullseye