Peeps to 1000 yards, Son wants new challenge

[Topstrap]

We started off 3 1/2 years ago shooting our 15" Rem XP-100 LR pistols at Rayners 1000 yard steel plate matches. Various changes to optics, bipods, rear bags/wedges and calibers have helped to make us pretty competitive against the LR rifle guys. Last year we built two Savage 260 rifles and scores went up again. I didn't shoot enough matches with my rifle to be in the running for high overall average but my son finished second overall which made me very proud.

This coming season he wanted a new challenge and we've talked about metallic sights since he's seen a few others attempt it but our targets are kinda small and hard to paint them in between rounds so the metallic sight guys have dwindled down to one or two now. We found a set of Redfield International peep sights with all the inserts for a really good price at a local gun show. Didn't have a front mount so we decided to make one. I'm no machinist but did manage to fabricate one out of a left over piece of aluminium I had laying around and made something that don't look too bad and should work.

He's young and has excellent vision so I think he'll do pretty good with it. Be good to learn to use other types of sights and not be totally dependent on an optic. We didn't know how to calculate the front mount height so we guessed and allowed enough room to mill some off it needed and also made small pins that would slide up and down if I needed more elevation to get his initial sight height for zero.

We took it over the hill at our 200 yard range to get a rough idea of how much we needed to modify the mount to be on at 100 yards. We set a 3' tall piece of cardboard up at 100 yards with a quickly drawn black circle near the middle to shoot at. He spent a few minutes getting it bore sighted (yes you can bore sight metallic sights) but does take a bit longer to tweak it in.

Had the spotting scope on the bull and was keeping a broad scan around the target to see anything off the paper hitting the ground around it. First shot ended up being exactly 5 inches low and 1 1/4 inches right but we didn't know any of this at the time and just guessed the corrections needed. Was pretty darn surprised it was that close but he's been within an inch or so with optics bore sighting at 100 so I guess I should of expected it.

I forgot to put anything on the paper in reference to know how much to adjust so we guessed. We guessed 3 moa up and added in 1 1/2 moa left. The second shot came up 2 3/4 moa and 1 1/4 left. Added a bit more wind to the left which we should not have done but came up another 1 1/2moa and was just left and bottom of the black. Added another 1 1/2moa elevation and was his final shot on the paper but close enough to know the mount was gonna work.

Had him add in 3/4 moa and shot at a steel plate we have at 200 yards and got a hit. Hmmm, think these peeps are gonna work. Got a bit of work to do on the mount to make sure everything is gonna tighten down good and have no movement but think he's gonna have a fun season switching between this and his LR pistol. We have to research how far these sights need to be apart to be calibrated so the 1/4 moa clicks equal 1/4 moa. Think it's around 32 inches separation but that was just a guess from thinking I read it somewhere long ago. Should be easy to find correct measurements though.

We shoot at Rayners Range here in Ohio with targets from 234 yards out to 1000 yards. They vary in size and point values with some having multiple size to choose from letting you gamble for more points but harder to hit targets. If he just sticks with the larger 10 pointers out thru 720 yards and the larger 16" squares worth 5 points at 900 and 990 I think he can do reasonably well. Amazing what skillful shooters can do with a good set of metallic sights and just adds more fun to an already challenging sport.

Think we're heading down to Rayners this coming weekend if the weather holds out to test this setup and also my new alluminium LR pistol stock created by 7fingers. Hope my new McGowen Rem-Age barrel shows up before then to get to test it out too. If anyone wishes to join us check in with me, not sure if it'll be Friday or Saturday (11th or 12th) but be glad to have others join in.

Topstrap

 

[steves1911]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Now thats cool! Looks like you've got something going on with that peep site, don't foregt the patent once you get it nailed down! Best of luck to your son!

 

[chase16]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Very interesting. Seems like a cool concept.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

They've been putting these sights on these type barrels for years, I just didn't see a front mount with a big enough hole to fit our barrel, that is only reason I made mine and I also just like to make things sometimes.

I do think it's going to take a lot longer to do the verticle tracking test and tweak it with so many variables to contend with getting everything directly over the bore and tracking up that line. Should be intersting and think we'll learn a lot in the process.

Should be fun and might get more of the metallic sight guys interested again and update their sights and even put some on their scoped LR rigs.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They've been putting these sights on these type barrels for years, I just didn't see a front mount with a big enough hole to fit our barrel, that is only reason I made mine and I also just like to make things sometimes.

I do think it's going to take a lot longer to do the verticle tracking test and tweak it with so many variables to contend with getting everything directly over the bore and tracking up that line. Should be intersting and think we'll learn a lot in the process.

Should be fun and might get more of the metallic sight guys interested again and update their sights and even put some on their scoped LR rigs.

Topstrap</div></div>


In NRA LR competition, there are typically three matches per day. One of these will be an iron sight match, another allowing for any sight, and the third an aggregate of the iron and any sight matches. For these events the shooter will change out sights between matches. Generally, scores with irons are about as high as when shooting with scope when the light is good. When a shooter tears it up on range with irons there's evidence he knows something about good shooting.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

We typically shot four matches when I shot for the Guard.

Any Rifle Iron Sights
Any Rifle Any Sights
Service Rifle
Team Match.

I used the same rifle in the first two and team match (Model 70 Winchester, 300 WM).

A Super Match M1A in Service Rifle

Looking at my old score books, there wasn't that much difference in the scores betweeen Any and Iron sights on my Model 70.

The highest scores I've fired at 1000 yards was with my M1A.

 

[sakobob]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

this should be fun , i've made hits at TVP with my m1a1 out to 700 and that was with the match sights ,that front will make it a little easier.
i was getting real close to the 1k plate but i was just not able to see it well enough.
the only trouble i see dennis, is keeping track of the rear sight elev. might be tough
being precise with those little lines, but with practice i think he will get it dialed in.
......he is going to make hits and i'm going to be forced to give irons a try too .

there is a lot of satisfaction making hits at distance with open sights. have the
camera ready when he hits that 1k plate, cuz thats going to be a BIG smile,for both of ya. see you soon.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

The rear sight does have 1/4moa clicks and are pretty positive. Won't know how accurate they will be till we get out there and compare against JBM but I'm thinking we can tweak the distance between the sights to possibly get them on or else just keep track of clicks or numbers on the knob like his scope.

Looking forward to it and be nice if more would do it, maybe get Tom to put a few larger targets up for the guys with metallic sights so they can see them, some distances are pretty darn small. Think wind will be his biggest challenge and also not being able to see his own hits/misses. Guess it'll be like the pistols again and not being able to see and having to trust the spotters for good calls for an adjustment.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Success with irons at any distance is all about PICTURE MEMORY. The target/sight relationship must be seen as being in the same plane in the minds eye. This takes practice but when the shooter becomes automatic with it excellence is possible. All that's necessary is a bullseye big enough to be visible to the eye.

There is only one problem when practicing at distance on bullseye targets. Not seeing the strikes makes shooter/target analysis untrustworthy. My advice is practice at 100 yards and shoot 1000 in match conditions where there will be someone at the target to spot it.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

All of our targets are at varying distances and sizes. From 234 to 1000 yards so just like with our LR pistols he'll have to rely on spotters. Usually a group of us that have shot for years spot for each other so we have a trust and good bit of experience so he should be good to go on that part. Easy to get used to seeing those hits/misses when we switched over to the rifles with scopes so not seeing them won't be a big deal, just going back to what we had before.

Sterling, do you know the distance the Redfield International sights were placed apart to be calibrated with the 1/4moa clicks on the elevation and windage? Guess we could send some rounds downrange at 100 yards and shoot some groups and take the average and see how the measurement compares to what we move the rear sight. When we first put them on and were adjusting the front for tracking vertically it seemed pretty close but we were more worried about vertical alignment rather than 4 clicks equaling 1 inch of elevation.

Used to use peeps long ago in the 70's when we first starting shooting IHMSA silhouette until better open sights came on the market. Amazing how the eye can center those up and be nearly as accurate as a scope on targets you can center up on. He's going to play with different size apertures on the front and see what works best on the various size and shaped targets at the different distances. That's been the problem with the other metallic sight shooters that have tried it at Rayners, smaller targets and after a few hits they just turn gray and disappear.

I think the highest score ever shot there with metallic sights is just a tad over 100 points. High with a LR pistol is 310 and scoped rifle is 390 with a possible high of 645 points it is a very challenging course of fire. It's a real challenge to break 300 and is a goal that most strive for. It's more about the challenge and journey towards personal improvement than always taking the easy route and being a high scorer.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

To understand click value put about 160 clicks on from 100 yard zero and see if that doesn't put you about 40 inches high at 100 yards. If it does you've got something like a 1/4 minute value. The irons on my 24 inch barreled bolt gun gives me more like 1/3 minute value. It's somewhat difficult to get my mind on it so I just remember the clicks necessary to get 39 inches at 100 yards which will get line of sight/bullet path convergence at 1000.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Finally a decent weather day and off to Rayners we went. First time since initial sighting in and tracking test to get to see how these peeps are going to work at the Range we shoot at. We started at the 234 yard stage and were going to work our way out thru all the stages to finish up at the 990/1000 yard targets.

The targets haven't been painted in quite a while which made them a bit difficult to see and the winds were running pretty steady at 10mph with gusts to about 20mph. Since we shoot all four directions this should get pretty interesting.

Since this thread is about Chris and his Savage 260 and the Redfield Peep sights I'll just say how each stage went. I had my video camera and had it all set up and filmed nearly every stage and on some zoomed out to watch the hits on the targets with a bit of narration about distances and such.

First target 234 yards, really small rectangle, first shot miss at 5:00 1 inch out. adjusted for wind and elevation, center hit.

Moved out to 300 yards, center height, 1 inch right off plate, second shot dead center.

375 yards, 2 inches right off plate, second shot 2 inches right of center.

400 yards, just off right edge, second shot nearly center.

500 yards, shooting opposite direction and first shot just off left edge, second shot good solid hit.

590 yards, directly under bottom of 15" circle, second shot good solid hit.

630 yards, opposite side of the hill, first round miss at 3:00 2 inches out, second shot good solid hit.

650 yards, 3 inches right off plate and elevation was at bottom edge. second shot good solid hit.

700 yards, first round hit then backed it up with another solid hit.

720 yards, no target hanging on that stand so he shot where pole goes in the ground and was 6 inches left and good elevation so left it at that.

900 yards, I set the camera up, zoomed it in and out to show the target and what it looked like from our bench. Said we were gonna shoot one shot for windage before filming and shut it off. Got to the spotting scope and he got a first round hit, couldn't believe it. Pushed the button back on the for filming and he missed his next shot then hit 2 more in a row for 3 out of 4 hits on a 16" square at 900 yards.

990 yards, only target he could even make out was the 15" circle that looked like a pin prick thru the peeps. If it would have been a 18" square he would have hit it every time but only managed a hit on his 4th shot but was still pretty damn good for something I couldn't see with my naked eye.

Well, now you ask where is the proof? I've had this video camera for a couple years now but mainly use it for car shows/cruises or some pictures at our matches. Very seldom use it for filming and the button I kept pushing to film was the button on top for taking pictures. When I got home and saw what I did I just couldn't believe it. Felt so totally stupid, missing having that display of shooting first time out with those peeps still has me depressed. He said don't worry about it, we'll just get more next time out.

For those that know Chris and have seen him shoot know that I'm not exaggerating. Not only proud that he had a good first time out on targets you can barely see with your naked eye in these conditions but to see how well these peep sights are working on odd shaped targets at these distances. He knows that some days he can have a heck of a score and other days may have a score sheet full of zeros with misses by less than an inch. Just part of the challenge.

My only claim to fame was taking a shot at the 900 yard target after he was done and a first round hit. Shot peeps long ago in the early days of IHMSA silhouette and guess it's like riding a bike, ya never really forget. Every once in a while I'd look over after a shot and ask if he saw his hit/miss

He did actually see a couple hits on the 900 yard target, it shakes pretty good, the bullet spray around the target and the splashes in the water under the target in the divots make it pretty noticable. Just like with our LR pistols, he's going to have to really rely on the spotters for his calls but nothing new to us so he should be OK.

Didn't post this as a brag session but more to share with others how you can participate in the long range game even with equipment that isn't what others consider the norm. Luckily he has good eyesight and can see targets that are only a blur to me at the extended distances. I can see now how the peeps can be really good on big round targets that let you center up on them and shoot pretty good groups. He's just centering up whatever shape it is in the center of the front peep and adjusting the rear aperture to allow enough light in and get a clear sight picture.

The JBM printout was nuts on thru 500 yards but at 590 it started to be off a bit. Ended up at 990 being 2 minutes off in elevation. We're attributing that to the distance we have the two sights apart. They are 33 inches and we think that 31 inches might get it closer to being true 1/4moa clicks on the sight. We might experiment with that next trip out of after a couple matches. When he had to make a correction the sight was very reliable and moved what it was supposed to which really was interesting.

Next trip out I'll take the camera again and get proof, until then you'll have to either believe it was done as told or add this to the endless list of stories that are spread around gun shops of tall tales.

The big white thing you see way out there is a huge patch of ice. The 18" square is off to the left of that about 40ft. Quite a ways above that in a clearing in the trees is the 15" circle at 990 yards.

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[MDM]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Nice report Dennis. I had no doubt that the peeps and the shooter would do just fine. Can't wait to see it in action.

 

[clayne_b]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Sounds like you guys are having fun, I look forward to a video!

 

[0311@LAR]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Well after watching Chris shoot his peeps today, amazing is an understatement! Impressive to say the least.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Had fun Dusty, muddy and invisible targets but really fun time. Ya did good too. Think when he can see the targets it might help?

I think when we get the front sight fixed we'll head back down but prob be thru the week before the match. Will send a note to you when we plan to go.

Topstrap

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

To be honest we don't know if there is a correct distance for the rear peep to be from the eye. We've both shot it at that distance and the sight picture looks really good. He has an adjustable rear aperture so he can size it to fit. I did a quick search and I found that some have it as close as 2 inches and others out to 12 inches. You really are just looking thru the rear peep and aligning it so the front is centered. Chris sizes the rear till the front just fits and eliminates any light around the edges.

Not sure what is "proper and correct" technique but it's been working and it's the way I did it on my old IHMSA guns before we got better notch and post sight setups. The hardest part was getting the correct height front mount to match up with the rear and also have the correct height for his cheek weld. Had to play back and forth between them and still have the rear peep mounted so it had plenty of elevation travel.

Just last nite he raised his rear mount so the peep would be lower on it's elevation slide. He's about 2 minutes from bottom but has something like 80 minutes of travel up now but everything lines up better. Same as with a rifle scope, he closes his eyes, gets into position then opens them and it should be lined up just like with a scope. This is still mostly just an experiment and learning process for him, he's only been out twice with it for practice and this last time he could barely see a few of the targets. We could barely see them thru the spotting scope. They hadn't been painted and blending in with the snow and mud background at the farther distances made them hard to see even in the rifle scopes.

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Short clip of that day, the trace was really showing up well and is visible in the clip. LOTS OF FUN !

That's going to be a factor shooting these distances at these types of targets. They will be painted for the matches so hopefully that will help but still going to be shadows, sun and just being small irregularly shaped targets. If not, hope he takes either his LR pistol or one of the other rifles as backup. He did very well last season with his scoped rifle and is just looking for another challenge and luckily has good eyesight.

Topstrap

 

[clayne_b]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

Good work guys!

 

[Xcount]

Re: Sons new challenge for next years 1000 yard match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, I always been curious.

Found this...

That AMU shooter was buried in his rear peep sight.

Just some food for thought. </div></div>

ahh, notice that this shooter has a 223, you go ahead and climb up on that with a 308 or larger round and see what happens.

please post pictures!