Night Vision Photonis Quads are out

[zinny]

Photonis Defense Releases Ultralight and Panoramic 4G Night Vision Goggles - Frag Out! Magazine

Photonis, a world leader in state-of-the-art night vision Image Intensifier Tubes for military and commercial applications, has released its Photonis Defense Professional (PD-PRO) series of night vision goggles built around their 16mm and hybrid 18mm image intensifier tubes. The end results are...

fragoutmag.com

MAP $40,000. But they sell to people without a .gov or .mil account.

 

[DarinC]

Daaaaaamn! #lifegoals right there

 

[TheHorta]

U-G-L-Y!

Might give them a try, but will always prefer dual (or quad) thermals, for my particular use.

 

[TNVC_Will]

"Hybrid 4G Filmless"
And people wonder why so many folks who are looking around at NV for the first time get so twisted up trying to understand things, lol.

 

[stefan73]

"Hybrid 4G Filmless"
And people wonder why so many folks who are looking around at NV for the first time get so twisted up trying to understand things, lol.

Cause 5G gives Covid?

 

[coraxdefence]

"Hybrid 4G Filmless"
And people wonder why so many folks who are looking around at NV for the first time get so twisted up trying to understand things, lol.

Just need to add 'Crypto' and they'll have the Infinity Gauntlet of buzzwords

 

[rlsmith1]

Throw all the stones you want, it's a step in the right direction for us lowly citizens. Wonder who will sell them? Only a matter of time until just the housing is available and we can slap some L3 filmless tubes in there!

 

[ljstack]

Hi everyone, Photonis Defense released their Monos, Binos and Quads see https://www.photonisdefense.com/introducing-pd-pro-series. "Hybrid 18mm," what that means is they reduced the size of the standard 18mm tube and made it thinner, by quite a bit. Not as small as the 16mm but smaller than a standard L3, Elbit or Photonis 18mm. All tubes used in the systems are their 4G tubes. The 4G is their "Milspec" tube. The ECHO tube from Photonis that you see on the internet is their commercial variant, meaning not as good as the 4G. All Photonis tubes for night vision are filmless. The reason they are filmless is that they don't use GaAs coatings. The GaAs coatings are what formed the initial reason for the films required for Gen3 tubes. The film reduced the degradation of the GaAs coatings to bring the Gen3 tubes in line with the lifetime performance of the Gen2 tubes. The Quad is exceptionally comfortable, if you get a chance to wear one for a few hours check it out. The Bino is spectacular in terms of the size and weight. The performance of the tubes themselves are fantastic although at the end of the day it's the Mod I Mark I eyeball that determines if its the best for you. What these goggles/tubes excell in is edge to edge clarity, resolution, extremely fast Auto-Gating Response time, contrast, Halo, and resolution under brighter light conditions where the lp/m don't drop below 57. L3's will drop down to the mid 30's. Finally, when its dark enough to have to go to IR illumination the 4G extended bandwidth will allow you to use a 1064 illuminator, which wouldn't be as easily seen by other NVGs, but its like using a flashlight to a 4G powered system.

 

[TNVC_Will]

Hi everyone, Photonis Defense released their Monos, Binos and Quads see https://www.photonisdefense.com/introducing-pd-pro-series. "Hybrid 18mm," what that means is they reduced the size of the standard 18mm tube and made it thinner, by quite a bit. Not as small as the 16mm but smaller than a standard L3, Elbit or Photonis 18mm. All tubes used in the systems are their 4G tubes. The 4G is their "Milspec" tube. The ECHO tube from Photonis that you see on the internet is their commercial variant, meaning not as good as the 4G. All Photonis tubes for night vision are filmless. The reason they are filmless is that they don't use GaAs coatings. The GaAs coatings are what formed the initial reason for the films required for Gen3 tubes. The film reduced the degradation of the GaAs coatings to bring the Gen3 tubes in line with the lifetime performance of the Gen2 tubes. The Quad is exceptionally comfortable, if you get a chance to wear one for a few hours check it out. The Bino is spectacular in terms of the size and weight. The performance of the tubes themselves are fantastic although at the end of the day it's the Mod I Mark I eyeball that determines if its the best for you. What these goggles/tubes excell in is edge to edge clarity, resolution, extremely fast Auto-Gating Response time, contrast, Halo, and resolution under brighter light conditions where the lp/m don't drop below 57. L3's will drop down to the mid 30's. Finally, when its dark enough to have to go to IR illumination the 4G extended bandwidth will allow you to use a 1064 illuminator, which wouldn't be as easily seen by other NVGs, but its like using a flashlight to a 4G powered system.

That's good info to share that standard 18mm tubes can't be used in these new housings.

 

[Terry Cross]

The 104* FOV of each tube is a big deal on seamless overlap and user S.A.
Size and weight reductions are a plus too.

Yes it's ugly but still another step in the evolution to NVHUD and really small systems.
Capitalism and competition are good!

./

 

[ljstack]

That's good info to share that standard 18mm tubes can't be used in these new housings.

Yes, correct, you can't swap out the tubes with standard 18mm, on the other hand if you were swapping out tubes you either have a lot of money or you'd be in the military, in which case the Service would pay for the tubes and you wouldn't care as long as they worked well.

 

[TheGerman]

3 / 5 'meh'

 

[rlsmith1]

Definitely excited to hear first hand reports on these things. How were the original 4G Intens tubes? I have no experience with them

 

[padronanniversary]

curious to see pics through them as well. too bad these companies are not doing VR type demos in a sense being able to compare different ones. now that would be cool, not to mention allow buyers to experience images or video prior to buying

 

[ljstack]

Here is a photo of Photonis 18mm, Hybrid 18mm and a 16mm so you can see a size comparison. All have the same performance specifications for the same type (4G). The 16mm and Hybrid 18mm are not available in commercial specifications only military type specification. Only the standard 18mm comes in milspec (4G) all the way to lower level commercial specifications (ECHO, XD-4, SR5).

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@ljstack
Are you a Photonis representative? As in point of contact for questions and such?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TNVC_Will]

Here is a photo of Photonis 18mm, Hybrid 18mm and a 16mm so you can see a size comparison. All have the same performance specifications for the same type (4G). The 16mm and Hybrid 18mm are not available in commercial specifications only military type specification. Only the standard 18mm comes in milspec (4G) all the way to lower level commercial specifications (ECHO, XD-4, SR5).

That is considerably smaller. My first thought is why did they produce the Hybrid 18mm that requires a specialized housing when they already had the 16mm?

 

[ljstack]

Yes, I'm the CEO of Photonis Defense. If any of you have questions about tubes and what makes them tick or why they're made the way they are and what determines the impacts to what, in terms of performance, please let me know. I will get anyone here the straight technical information from the wealth of experts I have to pull from. I can also explain inside information on why we finally decided to make our own systems. These systems are like cars, trucks and weapons. Everyone has their own preferences, so we're not in the business of saying ours are "better" all we can do is tell you what they do and why, and only the professionals here determine what works for them. You can also email me directly at [email protected] and I'd be more than happy to talk to any of you.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Email incoming.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ljstack]

That is considerably smaller. My first thought is why did they produce the Hybrid 18mm that requires a specialized housing when they already had the 16mm?

This is a great question and it touches upon many aspects. First, think about the 16mm market and all of the NODS that have them. Pretty much a mental blank right? The entire US market revolves around 18mm tubes and one of the reasons is that 16mm tubes are hard to make. The yields were historically low and for every tube you make you have to throw 8 or 9 away, however Photonis perfected the manufacture of 16mm tubes, which is great, except that there was no market for 16mm tubes in the US. Meaning, what housing could they go into? When you get your hands on one you'll be amazed at how small they are and what a difference it makes in housing design. Form follows function, so while the military has been pushing lighter and smaller, you could only go so far with a housing using an 18mm tube. So, the reason why we made a hybrid 18 is to rethink the way the tubes were made and since everyone understands 18mm tubes the transition from a full size 18mm to a slimmer one was an easier mental leap than an 18mm to a 16mm in a quad. In other words, we can make the PD-PRO-Q even smaller with 16mm tubes and if we had done that (back when we first started) it may have been a technical marvel, but perhaps a marketing disaster.

 

[TNVC_Will]

This is a great question and it touches upon many aspects. First, think about the 16mm market and all of the NODS that have them. Pretty much a mental blank right? The entire US market revolves around 18mm tubes and one of the reasons is that 16mm tubes are hard to make. The yields were historically low and for every tube you make you have to throw 8 or 9 away, however Photonis perfected the manufacture of 16mm tubes, which is great, except that there was no market for 16mm tubes in the US. Meaning, what housing could they go into? When you get your hands on one you'll be amazed at how small they are and what a difference it makes in housing design. Form follows function, so while the military has been pushing lighter and smaller, you could only go so far with a housing using an 18mm tube. So, the reason why we made a hybrid 18 is to rethink the way the tubes were made and since everyone understands 18mm tubes the transition from a full size 18mm to a slimmer one was an easier mental leap than an 18mm to a 16mm in a quad. In other words, we can make the PD-PRO-Q even smaller with 16mm tubes and if we had done that (back when we first started) it may have been a technical marvel, but perhaps a marketing disaster.

Thanks for the info.

You stated above that the 16mm and hybrid 18mm are not available in a commercial specification. To confirm, does this mean that the new hybrid 18mm tubes and their specific housings (such as the panoramic goggle) will only be available for purchase by Law Enforcement and Military?

Or do you mean that the image tubes themselves are only available in the 4G/4G+ specification and available for purchase by civilians / non LE/MIL?

 

[TNVC_Will]

Quads are available to Civilians. And should you ever need tube replacement you can send it in, there just a different spec. I just got off the phone with a sales rep for photonis. It’s incredible the strides they are making with this technology.

Cool. I'm assuming you have one on the way?

 

[TNVC_Will]

I cannot confirm nor deny at this point!

LOL

Well if you do, get some real head gear for it. Panos deserve better than a Night Cap

 

[ljstack]

Thanks for the info.

You stated above that the 16mm and hybrid 18mm are not available in a commercial specification. To confirm, does this mean that the new hybrid 18mm tubes and their specific housings (such as the panoramic goggle) will only be available for purchase by Law Enforcement and Military?

Or do you mean that the image tubes themselves are only available in the 4G/4G+ specification and available for purchase by civilians / non LE/MIL?

The 16mm systems and Hybrid 18mm systems will only be sold with our highest quality 4G tubes. "Commercial" tubes are tubes that don't pass inspection for military grade, or have flaws which caused them to not be able to obtain a 4G rating. Most of these flaws are usually black spots in critical zones that don't affect normal civilian use. They still work great, but are best suited for non tactical purposes. I have a Photonis Vyper Mono with an ECHO tube, and I use my Mono for hiking, stargazing and the occasional pig hunt. The PD-PRO series with their 4G tubes are available to any US citizen. The systems do fall under ITAR and cannot be exported or taken outside of the USA without an export license. So to make sure I explained that OK, our 16mm and Hybrid 18mm tubes are provided as 4G tubes only, and the tubes and their housings are available to any US citizen. We also make and provide PVS-14s with standard 18mm tubes and those tubes are available in 4G, ECHO, XD-4 and XR5 grades and these tubes and systems are also available to any US citizen under the same ITAR regulations.

 

[TNVC_Will]

The 16mm systems and Hybrid 18mm systems will only be sold with our highest quality 4G tubes. "Commercial" tubes are tubes that don't pass inspection for military grade, or have flaws which caused them to not be able to obtain a 4G rating. Most of these flaws are usually black spots in critical zones that don't affect normal civilian use. They still work great, but are best suited for non tactical purposes. I have a Photonis Vyper Mono with an ECHO tube, and I use my Mono for hiking, stargazing and the occasional pig hunt. The PD-PRO series with their 4G tubes are available to any US citizen. The systems do fall under ITAR and cannot be exported or taken outside of the USA without an export license. So to make sure I explained that OK, our 16mm and Hybrid 18mm tubes are provided as 4G tubes only, and the tubes and their housings are available to any US citizen. We also make and provide PVS-14s with standard 18mm tubes and those tubes are available in 4G, ECHO, XD-4 and XR5 grades and these tubes and systems are also available to any US citizen under the same ITAR regulations.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I’m an NV nerd so I have to ask you if the Echos sold in the USA are Echo or Echo+ or some variation of the two?

The reason I ask is that the minimum specs on the data sheets I’ve seen are different than the minimum specs posted on the Photonis Defense website (FOM, SNR, and limiting resolution).

 

[ljstack]

Basically the answer is that in the US we got rid of the "plus" designations to make marketing easier and lessen the confusion factor, as there is enough of that with all of the Gen designations. The ECHO tube you get in the US is the ECHO+ on the European side . We state the absolute minimum specifications you can expect, however I have to admit that by asking the question you made me go and look at the specification sheet and confer with my engineers, because while we state a minimum we also stated a maximum and there really is no maximum, as in a "maximum" of 2,000 FOM as it currently states. I know our maximum FOM is higher than that and can be much, much higher. So we'll probably change that to read Maximum FOM of 2,000 or higher for the ECHO. Manufacturing tubes are like manufacturing semi-conductors, after completion you grade the product. We always strive to make the absolute best and perfect tubes but because it's part science and part art, not all of the tubes are as perfect as we'd like them - almost perfect but not quite, and that is why you see the various designations, with the 4G being the best. With that said we're continually trying to make them better, however at a certain point the weakest link is your eyeball and it really won't matter how great the specifications are, your brain just won't be able to process the image any further - that's the same conclusion the military is coming to which is, at some point there are diminishing returns in terms of improving specifications.

 

[DOVER]

I don't get the rationale behind specifying a maximum FOM number if it can then be exceeded, might as well not specify it in the first place. What happens to the 16mm and 18mm hybrid tubes that don't meet the 4G military spec? Do they just get binned instead of being moved down to commercial spec like you do with the standard 18mm tubes?

By the way not to be pedantic but calling the smaller 18mm tube "hybrid" wasn't a great idea from a marketing point of view since you've already been using that term extensively to describe your photocathode tech. 18mm "mini" or something along those lines would create far less confusion.

 

[Choid]

I keep reading about 4g, echo, intens, 4g+, but between the photonis defense site and the various retailers, I can hardly figure out which matches up to which. Can you explain which tubes on your US site are the intens tubes?

 

[ljstack]

I keep reading about 4g, echo, intens, 4g+, but between the photonis defense site and the various retailers, I can hardly figure out which matches up to which. Can you explain which tubes on your US site are the intens tubes?

We do not have INTENS tubes on the US side and Photonis no longer uses that name. The closest tube to those older ones would probably be the ECHO+ and maybe in a few cases a 4G. If a distributor has an INTENS branded tube it's still a solid performer and you won't go wrong with it.

 

[ljstack]

I don't get the rationale behind specifying a maximum FOM number if it can then be exceeded, might as well not specify it in the first place. What happens to the 16mm and 18mm hybrid tubes that don't meet the 4G military spec? Do they just get binned instead of being moved down to commercial spec like you do with the standard 18mm tubes?

By the way not to be pedantic but calling the smaller 18mm tube "hybrid" wasn't a great idea from a marketing point of view since you've already been using that term extensively to describe your photocathode tech. 18mm "mini" or something along those lines would create far less confusion.

It doesn't have to be specified and in many cases when you look at spec sheets - not just ours - it won't be. My reply was making the point that we need to change the way we have it listed now.

 

[tangloppen]

Cool beans having you here!

I’m curious, so, what’s the highest SNR number seen on a 4G+ tube? 40?
Is it possible to pay extra, and order a “cherry-picked” tube(s)?

There is a lot of fuzz about L3 super tubes, so how high can a 4G+ go?

 

[ljstack]

Here's what I can say. Yes we have "super tubes" and a few of these tubes are made through the natural manufacturing process and just turn out perfectly - meaning that they match the mathematics and calculations mapped out by the design engineers. These tubes can be requested and we can hand select them and they would be expensive depending upon how much more "super" they are. However, while the specification sheet would be impressive I'm not sure how well the MOD I, MARK I human eyeball would appreciate the differences. Theoretically speaking, it's possible to have a FOM above 3,000 (FOM = SNR x lp/mm). Theoretically speaking, it's possible to have lp/mm above 72. With that said, I've seen FOM 2200 tubes that were "better" than FOM 2600 tubes, with the word "better" meaning "to me" because at the end of the day, it's all that matters - whether its better to you for the price you're paying.

 

[TheHorta]

There’s both a plus and a minus to buying these.

The plus is, by all appearances and US guys I’ve talked to who have experience on both systems (L3 and Photonis), these are really, really good. You won’t come up short of the L3 units on performance, and even make some modest gains. The GPNVG is an aging design now, so it’s not a big surprise Photonis was able to improve on it. Being commercially available is totally awesome and Photonis should be lauded for making that happen. If you have the spare coin and you’re buying for the performance and will hold onto them, great.

The downside is, since anyone can buy them and everyone has access to the same thing at the same price, if you’re not a collector/user and cycle through your stuff like a defacto dealer, you’re going to take a sizeable hit and probably wait quite a while to move them. People like unobtanium, which is why there’s a robust secondary market for legit GPNVGs that trade hands at will. These won’t benefit from that Unobtanium status, so those who buy are likely in it for the long haul or to whom $40K isn’t a big nut.

Just my personal experience, quads are a blast and have advantages, but the novelty wears off kinda quickly if you’re not kicking doors or clearing structures for a living. Driving Rangers and hunting hogs, unless you have crazy coin, just don’t benefit that much from Quads. That, and they’re heavy, unwieldy, and you’re always worried about trashing them.

Then, everything you miss with dual tube NV you’re still gonna miss with quad tube NV, which is why “dual band”, fusion or dual Skeets still work much better for most outdoor/hunting applications. Having had both AVS-10’s (which a lot of people here have had, so they know as well as I do) and 2376 panos, the awe factor evaporates fairly quick.

That’s not a knock, and shouldn’t be a deterent to any who wanna splurge, but just a fact to those of us to whom $40K is a real chunk of change.

And, once again, bravo and kudos to Photonis for making this happen. It sucks when it takes a foreign company to “out-American” an American company.

Are you listening L3?

 

[TNVC_Will]

@Eliteuas -here ya go, here's one on what look likes a "Super" Night Cap NVLS Quad Eye

It looks like the same housing.

 

[RyanScott]

So this is a question I should have directed at Glynn from NVI, but if all 16mm tubes are 4G grade does that mean all the 16mm RNVGs have 4G tubes?

Is there any difference between 16mm and 18mm performance? Do you gain recoil resistance from having slightly less glass? Do you lose any gain?

I’m very interested in 16mm.

 

[Norseman88]

@ljstack. Are these products just a re-branding of NVLS’ products aimed at the US market? NVLS Minimus looks identical to PD-PRO-16B, and NVLS Maximus to PD-PRO-Q.

The NVLS QuadEye has also been tested in different versions, as seen in the pictures below. One of these claimed to be sub 730g, while what looks to be the newest version claims sub 800g. Was the first version not solid enough, so you had to toughen it up some?

 

[patriot_man]

I just want to see an aviation ball detent option to power the goggles.

 

[ljstack]

On the NVLS products the answer is yes and no. NVLS has been a Photonis partner for over 20 years. They only use Photonis tubes and we have worked side by side with their engineers and our optics suppliers to build systems that are specifically designed, constructed and coated for Photonis IITs. So when we decided to enter the US market with our own line of systems, they were the first ones we thought about as opposed to machining the housings ourselves. So yes, from that standpoint. However, the US market is different and feedback from military and commercial users were different and they supplied quite a number of recommendations for design changes. So modifications were made at the systems level (meaning modifications to various parts) so that it better meets the needs of the US market. So in that respect it's a no, meaning its not just a straight re-branding, we implemented certain design changes. Part of the "problem" we saw in night vision reporting is that we never knew what type of housing and optics our tubes were being placed into. With NODS, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Maybe a good analogy would be building a rifle from a compilation of parts from different manufacturers. Sometimes you can do that and get a really tight rifle where every part seems to work in synergy with each other. Other Times you can do that and you end up with a rifle that can't group shots within a pie plate at 200 yards. Its the same with NODS, every part matters and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[TheHorta]

Especially for a $40K unit. I’d be hiring hitmen if I ponied up that kinda dough and the unit was trash.

It’s why so many people pay-up for AI and other high-end rifles.

 

[ljstack]

I just want to see an aviation ball detent option to power the goggles.

On the PD-PRO-Q there are two ways to power them. On the original design they were powered on/off with a magnetic switch. Lower the NODS and they turn on, raise them and they turn off. Well, some people liked that and some didn't. So, on the PD-PRO-Q there are two choices. You can get them with a manual switch or magnetic switch that powers them on and off. More than likely, we'll go with the manual switch vice magnetic for the US market. By the way, the PD stands for Photonis Defense; the PRO for Professional, and the Q is the Navy designation for "special mission."

 

[TNVC_Will]

I was on the website looking for the differences between the Photonis PD-PRO-Q Panoramic and the NLVS Quad Eye. What stood out as different is that the PD-PRO-Q was redesigned to specifically use the smaller hybrid 18mm tubes whereas the NLVS uses standard 18mm tubes.

Is that the main difference or what other features make the PD-PRO-Q better suited for the US NV community?

I just noticed "Hypersense 4G" for the first time on the PD-PRO-Q page. I did not find this word on the webpage for 4G image tubes. Is this simply a marketing name regarding the out of band properties of Echo and 4G/4G+ tubes or is it a different type of 4G tube?

 

[ljstack]

I’ll have a set and will be doing a *unbiased* video review on them in February. If anyone wants a pair I’ll be a Photonis distributor as of next week. Just waiting on my lawyer to look over the paperwork. Thank you Mr. Stack, I’m looking forward to being apart of the “Photonis family” for a long time! 2021 is going to be a hell of a year!
Regards
Felipe Bastos
Elite Unlocked Aiming Solutions

Fantastic! By the way, I recommend you pick up a 1064 illuminator/laser. One test that was an eye opener for team members is when we asked them to bring their NODS to compare them with a PD-PRO product. We asked them to turn on their NODS and shine the 1064 laser at their feet. We asked if they could see it. All of them could see it using their NODS. We then asked them to move the laser spot out to the horizon until they couldn't see it. The average distance was perhaps 75 feet when they lost the dot. Then we had them do the same with a PD-PRO product, we only had a quarter of a mile before we ran out of terrain (we were by the ocean), but you could see the dot perfectly well on the distant treeline. It's just a visual indicator of what "out of band" or "extended range" or what we call "Hypersense" means. So to answer Will-1's question, yes it's a marketing name that speaks to the extended bandwidth of the 4G tube.

 

[ljstack]

We welcome EliteUAS to the Photonis Defense family of distributors! Thank you for all you do Felipe!

Larry Stack
CEO, Photonis Defense

 

[Norseman88]

@ljstack, In all the information i have seen listed on the PD-PRO-16B, the weight has been listed as <12oz / <490g. While i agree that less than 12oz indeed is less than 490g, it seems that something has gone wrong during the conversion. 12oz = 340g, so what is the correct weight of the PD-PRO-16B, battery included?

 

[ljstack]

You have spotted an error in our data sheet which resulted in the severe lambasting of my marketing team as we now have to make a correction to the data sheet, brochure and website for the PD-PRO-16B. The PD-PRO-16B's with battery is less than 490grams. The 12 ounces reference is a mistake, however I thank you very much for pointing this out. Norseman88 please send me your address via my email so we can send you some items as a thank you!

 

[Norseman88]

You´re welcome, and thank you for teaching me a new word. Email sent.

JT

 

[SGT Fish @ChevTec Group]

@Eliteuas you get any in stock yet? It's almost March and I want to see pics!

 

[ljstack]

Yes, we have the PD-PRO-16B in stock. PD-PRO-Q's will be in end of March.