Please weigh in with your opinions

[colt.45]

My first nice scope.
As I understand it, but please correct if wrong, NF is more durable, and possibly better glass?

Gun: .308 bolt action bergara B14 HMR, 20" heavy barrel.
Use: Steel, out to 1000, max. paper groups inside 500

For guys that dial wind, do you prefer to have the windage knob on your shooting hand (Right side) or do you better like the ability to see where your wind is at from your non-dominant eye, right in front of you, without breaking your cheek weld?

Question about the Mil-R: Does the 2 mil center bracket work as a fast aiming solution on low-ish power at closer ranges? My thinking is, don't even look at the center cross, just bracket an ipsc silouette inside the box and go, like an Eotech but square. Is that how people use it?

Also for sale is the same NF in Mil-XT (for $200 more). Something about the dots just turn me off because in pictures it appears to wash out behind a wooded area. Hashes just make sense to my eyes. On that subject, do any of you have good success using wind+elevation holds without a tree?

 

[Secant]

Both are overpriced IMO. You can regularly find k624i's in the PX for +/-$1800, and 5-25 ATACRs for +/-$2000. Mil-R reticle is also outdated, and most will prefer Mil-C or Mil-XT. I have mostly tree reticles, but rarely use them. While I like MPCT2, SKMR2, EBR-7, etc tree reticles, I was not a fan of Mil-XT at all. Sold my last Mil-XT ATACR and went with Mil-C.

For $2600 range, I'd look for a used 7-35 ATACR, k525i (more like $2300), or save some money & get a used Gen 3 Razor or Minox ZP5 in the +/- $2k range. And since this is the Hide, save up $400 more and get a used ZCO527, which is better than ATACR & Kahles anyways

 

[Glassaholic]

Both are overpriced IMO. You can regularly find k624i's in the PX for +/-$1800, and 5-25 ATACRs for +/-$2000. Mil-R reticle is also outdated, and most will prefer Mil-C or Mil-XT. I have mostly tree reticles, but rarely use them. While I like MPCT2, SKMR2, EBR-7, etc tree reticles, I was not a fan of Mil-XT at all. Sold my last Mil-XT ATACR and went with Mil-C.

For $2600 range, I'd look for a used 7-35 ATACR, k525i (more like $2300), or save some money & get a used Gen 3 Razor or Minox ZP5 in the +/- $2k range. And since this is the Hide, save up $400 more and get a used ZCO527, which is better than ATACR & Kahles anyways

^^^ What he said ^^^

I will add that the ATACR 5-25 has the reputation of not being the best optically. I would choose the K624i over the ATACR 5-25 but I would choose the ATACR 7-35 (and many other scopes like what Secant mentions) over the K624i. Many good deals in the used section on the Hide.

 

[colt.45]

Both are overpriced IMO. You can regularly find k624i's in the PX for +/-$1800, and 5-25 ATACRs for +/-$2000. Mil-R reticle is also outdated, and most will prefer Mil-C or Mil-XT. I have mostly tree reticles, but rarely use them. While I like MPCT2, SKMR2, EBR-7, etc tree reticles, I was not a fan of Mil-XT at all. Sold my last Mil-XT ATACR and went with Mil-C.

For $2600 range, I'd look for a used 7-35 ATACR, k525i (more like $2300), or save some money & get a used Gen 3 Razor or Minox ZP5 in the +/- $2k range. And since this is the Hide, save up $400 more and get a used ZCO527, which is better than ATACR & Kahles anyways

Interesting, those prices seemed to be the best I have seen find for brand new models. I was checking the PX yesterday and was not able to see any current offers for either scope in the price ranges you listed, but I would be interested.

Regarding the mil R, i've heard that, but the Mil-c just looks off to my eyes. How important is it to have .2 mil notches?

yeah, the gen 3 razor I could also get (new) for exactly the same price as that ATACR was quoted. I was just turned off by the amount of people with tracking and durability issues, for the money. It's important to me that I don't have to worry about dropping my rifle, like ever. The fact that I don't need 30+ power for the distances I'm shooting, mean both the 7-35 ATACR and the razor don't have that edge to justify in my case. Maybe I pick up a 300wm in the future, but even then I think the 25x ish range would probably still get the job done pretty well right?

ZCO feels like overkill to me, not only in price, but also performance. As a beginner, i'm not even able to perceive those benefits it offers when I'm coming from a Nikon 3-9x from 2008. Any scope I upgrade to is gonna feel like a cadillac.

 

[colt.45]

^^^ What he said ^^^

I will add that the ATACR 5-25 has the reputation of not being the best optically. I would choose the K624i over the ATACR 5-25 but I would choose the ATACR 7-35 (and many other scopes like what Secant mentions) over the K624i. Many good deals in the used section on the Hide.

you think the durability advantage isn't worth it for the extra couple hundred bucks? interesting point about the glass, a lot of people seem to claim the atacr 5-25 glass was an upgrade from the 624, but a down grade from the k525.
I was also in the market for a steiner t6xi but the reviews said it wasn't worth the money ($2000 with tax included) or near optical quality of the khales and NF options in that range

 

[Secant]

Interesting, those prices seemed to be the best I have seen find for brand new models. I was checking the PX yesterday and was not able to see any current offers for either scope in the price ranges you listed, but I would be interested.

Keep looking, they’ll pop up.

Regarding the mil R, i've heard that, but the Mil-c just looks off to my eyes. How important is it to have .2 mil notches?

How accurate do you want to be with your wind call? 0.2 mils is what all modern reticles have. I still have a Gen 2 Mildot in a tangent, and guys definitely get by with reticles that don’t have 0.2 mil hashes.

Also consider that since you’re new, you may not know what you want/like, meaning you may need to sell whatever optical you get. A mil-r will have lower resale since it’s less desirable.

yeah, the gen 3 razor I could also get (new) for exactly the same price as that ATACR was quoted. I was just turned off by the amount of people with tracking and durability issues, for the money. It's important to me that I don't have to worry about dropping my rifle, like ever.

I’d pump the brakes on whatever durability and dropping you’re reading on the internet. ATACRs are not immune to breaking. Also, if you drop your rifle, how are you sure the scope didn’t move in the rings? Rings to action rail? Rail to action? Action to stock/chassis? Barrel to action? Muzzle device to barrel? How consistent are your build-and-breaks to check anyways. Just saying you should use your gear enough to be confident and also be realistic in your expectations.

The fact that I don't need 30+ power for the distances I'm shooting, mean both the 7-35 ATACR and the razor don't have that edge to justify in my case. Maybe I pick up a 300wm in the future, but even then I think the 25x ish range would probably still get the job done pretty well right?

It’s not about the top end mag. It’s more about the fact that the 7-35 or 6-36 is going to perform better at that 18-22x mag than a 5-25. Unless you’re doing benchrest stuff, most people aren’t using the high end. I don’t think my 5-27 ZCO has been used over 20x. My 4-16 ATACR is more comfortable to use when it’s a little below max mag.

 

[colt.45]

Keep looking, they’ll pop up.


How accurate do you want to be with your wind call? 0.2 mils is what all modern reticles have. I still have a Gen 2 Mildot in a tangent, and guys definitely get by with reticles that don’t have 0.2 mil hashes.

Also consider that since you’re new, you may not know what you want/like, meaning you may need to sell whatever optical you get. A mil-r will have lower resale since it’s less desirable.



I’d pump the brakes on whatever durability and dropping you’re reading on the internet. ATACRs are not immune to breaking. Also, if you drop your rifle, how are you sure the scope didn’t move in the rings? Rings to action rail? Rail to action? Action to stock/chassis? Barrel to action? Muzzle device to barrel? How consistent are your build-and-breaks to check anyways. Just saying you should use your gear enough to be confident and also be realistic in your expectations.

It’s not about the top end mag. It’s more about the fact that the 7-35 or 6-36 is going to perform better at that 18-22x mag than a 5-25. Unless you’re doing benchrest stuff, most people aren’t using the high end. I don’t think my 5-27 ZCO has been used over 20x. My 4-16 ATACR is more comfortable to use when it’s a little below max mag.

Keep looking, they’ll pop up.


How accurate do you want to be with your wind call? 0.2 mils is what all modern reticles have. I still have a Gen 2 Mildot in a tangent, and guys definitely get by with reticles that don’t have 0.2 mil hashes.

Also consider that since you’re new, you may not know what you want/like, meaning you may need to sell whatever optical you get. A mil-r will have lower resale since it’s less desirable.



I’d pump the brakes on whatever durability and dropping you’re reading on the internet. ATACRs are not immune to breaking. Also, if you drop your rifle, how are you sure the scope didn’t move in the rings? Rings to action rail? Rail to action? Action to stock/chassis? Barrel to action? Muzzle device to barrel? How consistent are your build-and-breaks to check anyways. Just saying you should use your gear enough to be confident and also be realistic in your expectations.

It’s not about the top end mag. It’s more about the fact that the 7-35 or 6-36 is going to perform better at that 18-22x mag than a 5-25. Unless you’re doing benchrest stuff, most people aren’t using the high end. I don’t think my 5-27 ZCO has been used over 20x. My 4-16 ATACR is more comfortable to use when it’s a little below max mag.

about that last point. Recently I posted in the Long range forum of reddit asking precisely the question that you just stated about mag. range, as I'd heard others make the same point before. Well everyone clowned me for asking and insisted it was a myth that had long since been dispelled, so I figured I was good with even a 4-16x ATACR, which I was also considering. I got a quote on that for about $2250 out the door, and ive heard they are the best ATACRs, but I figured for long range shooting, it was worth the extra $200 for a 25 power of the same model.

So when you're shooting between 500-800 yards, you mainly use 18-22 power? I've only ever shot to 500 and used 9 power in second focal plane.

 

[ruger35]

Check with @RangerWalker71 for NF prices. I have an Atacr 4-16 with Mil-R reticles and a couple Atacr/NX8 with Mil-XT, I wouldn’t get the Mil-R again.

Atacr 7-35 is a great scope. I think until you step up to ZCO or TT then it’s as good or better as anything else in its class.

 

[Im2bent]

I wouldn't give much weight to the 12 year olds on reddit .

 

[Secant]

about that last point. Recently I posted in the Long range forum of reddit asking precisely the question that you just stated about mag. range, as I'd heard others make the same point before. Well everyone clowned me for asking and insisted it was a myth that had long since been dispelled, so I figured I was good with even a 4-16x ATACR, which I was also considering. I got a quote on that for about $2250 out the door, and ive heard they are the best ATACRs, but I figured for long range shooting, it was worth the extra $200 for a 25 power of the same model.

So when you're shooting between 500-800 yards, you mainly use 18-22 power? I've only ever shot to 500 and used 9 power in second focal plane.

I guess it depends on the scope, what position, target size, etc. I shoot 1,000 yards on 12x quite a bit with my hunting rifle that wears a 3-15 Tangent. Shooting positionally with gamer guns, I’m usually in the 15x - 18x range out to 1,000 yards with a ZCO 527 or 420.

For most people, myself included, magnification is a balance of target acquisition/field of view/recoil management/being able to spot hits/misses.

I’ve had a couple 4-16 ATACRs, and generally like them. I think they have the best turret in the lineup. It’s a good hunting/gas-gun/crossover scope, but I prefer other scopes for a dedicated “precision bolt gun”.

 

[codym]

I’ve had both of these scopes in a few different samples. The atac r is ok.. mil r sucks had a friend out a couple days ago that’s a newer shooter and really struggled refining his wind hold with that reticle. The 624’s had much better glass but I don’t see CA like some others do. I’m left handed so rsw and the top parallax are big deals for me. I hate the rotating ocular and the way the atacr diopter locks, I always ended up unlocking it and fucking that up but I’m pretty ham fisted. For me the 624 all day but like others said those prices are high. Never had durability issues with either don’t own any of those scopes anymore though. I would own another kahles probably not another NF. Both good scopes the NF just isn’t my cup of tea.

 

[Glassaholic]

you think the durability advantage isn't worth it for the extra couple hundred bucks? interesting point about the glass, a lot of people seem to claim the atacr 5-25 glass was an upgrade from the 624, but a down grade from the k525.
I was also in the market for a steiner t6xi but the reviews said it wasn't worth the money ($2000 with tax included) or near optical quality of the khales and NF options in that range

Hard to add anything to the advice already given above. Durability is not something easily quantifiable, you can have quirky drop tests like what they do over on RoqueSlide but like Secant mentions above, there is much more to a zero slip than just the scope, too many factors IMO to make this a repeatable/reliable test. Any man made mechanical object is prone to break, no mfr is immune, yes NF has one of the best reputations for durability but that doesn't mean it won't fail you.

The Steiner is really good, but watch the Hide B&S forum, I think they are a good option for <$1500.

Last thought, even though the ATACR has the shakiest reputation of all the ATACR's when it comes to IQ, that doesn't mean it's terrible or you won't like it so if you find a great deal and that's what you want don't let anyone disuade you.

 

[8r3wt3ch]

The good news is you're never stuck with something. You can always sell it and try something else if you're just not feeling it. Optics can be very subjective and until you find one that you prefer, it tends to be trial and error. I wish there are more local stores that carried all of the popular options so you could get behind them all before choosing what's right for YOU, but that's hardly ever the case.

 

[colt.45]

I’ve had both of these scopes in a few different samples. The atac r is ok.. mil r sucks had a friend out a couple days ago that’s a newer shooter and really struggled refining his wind hold with that reticle. The 624’s had much better glass but I don’t see CA like some others do. I’m left handed so rsw and the top parallax are big deals for me. I hate the rotating ocular and the way the atacr diopter locks, I always ended up unlocking it and fucking that up but I’m pretty ham fisted. For me the 624 all day but like others said those prices are high. Never had durability issues with either don’t own any of those scopes anymore though. I would own another kahles probably not another NF. Both good scopes the NF just isn’t my cup of tea.

I've spent a great deal of time today studying reticles. I am sort of rethinking the Mil-R. The whole appeal to me was that simple 2 mil box that I thought could be used as a coarse aiming solution, but apart from that, the lack of defined hashes inside 1 mil in any direction make it seem like it could be a real challenge if you had odd holds like .3, .7, even .1. I've seen videos of people being successful with it, but still even the next section over is really confusing when I actually study it. You get a "notch" between .2 & .3, and then another one between .7 & .8 , but because of the mixture of notches vs hashes, & the mixture of an edge measurement vs open, it just really becomes cumbersome in the brain. I'm sure if you practiced it really hard, and memorized it over and over you could be fast.. but mixing units of measurement just seems so needlessly complicated. If someone calls out 2.7, my brain can't just look at the relative sizes in each mil to find .7. My only solution is to sort of remember that .7 is the right edge of the second notch.

Now I see how the mil-c solves all that with one simple measuring system, repeated equally on both axis. If I can just get over the "busy" marks in mismatched height, I do understand why everyone prefers this.

The second appeal to me of the Mil-R over the Mil-C, was an addtional (potential) function as a coarse aiming solution using the bottom + Right&Left black columns, on a gas gun, low power, close range. I imagined I could hold silhouette inside those columns for a quick aim. That somewhat mimics what I see when I look through the FC-DMX reticle. When looking at footage of Mil-C, I noticed the bottom bold column is not filled in black and nearly impossible to see in FFP on low power, compared to the Mil-R. So you would have a harder/slower time aligning the target inside it. This also depends on how thick those columns are, which I can't see in person until I buy one. No NF dealers near me.

Regarding tree reticles, my biggest concern though is with odd numbers. So say I had to hold" 2.3 elevation, and .7 or .8 right", well then I'm still in no mans land and having to guess precisely where that would be. Same if they called out "right .9 and 2.1 elevation" or "2.5 right & 3.7 high". That said, the Mil-XT being "busiest" of the 3 tree style rets I'm considering, seems to be the best for getting a good placement on those odd numbers. On the other hand, I could just dial elevation and forget about the XT... idk

 

[colt.45]

I’ve had both of these scopes in a few different samples. The atac r is ok.. mil r sucks had a friend out a couple days ago that’s a newer shooter and really struggled refining his wind hold with that reticle. The 624’s had much better glass but I don’t see CA like some others do. I’m left handed so rsw and the top parallax are big deals for me. I hate the rotating ocular and the way the atacr diopter locks, I always ended up unlocking it and fucking that up but I’m pretty ham fisted. For me the 624 all day but like others said those prices are high. Never had durability issues with either don’t own any of those scopes anymore though. I would own another kahles probably not another NF. Both good scopes the NF just isn’t my cup of tea.

fellow "wrong hander" here ... did you mean to say "LSW"? When you're prone, using your support hand to adjust aim, I'd assume you prefer to dial wind with your shooting hand, like rightys do, so you don't have to break cheek weld or take your aim off target. or do you reach over the top and dial? I can see both arguments for why a lefty (or righty) would prefer the windage on either side. Pros and cons

 

[colt.45]

Hard to add anything to the advice already given above. Durability is not something easily quantifiable, you can have quirky drop tests like what they do over on RoqueSlide but like Secant mentions above, there is much more to a zero slip than just the scope, too many factors IMO to make this a repeatable/reliable test. Any man made mechanical object is prone to break, no mfr is immune, yes NF has one of the best reputations for durability but that doesn't mean it won't fail you.

The Steiner is really good, but watch the Hide B&S forum, I think they are a good option for <$1500.

Last thought, even though the ATACR has the shakiest reputation of all the ATACR's when it comes to IQ, that doesn't mean it's terrible or you won't like it so if you find a great deal and that's what you want don't let anyone disuade you.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice, and I'll keep an eye out for deals on the PX. I've never bought/sold using that, so it would be a first.

 

[colt.45]

The good news is you're never stuck with something. You can always sell it and try something else if you're just not feeling it. Optics can be very subjective and until you find one that you prefer, it tends to be trial and error. I wish there are more local stores that carried all of the popular options so you could get behind them all before choosing what's right for YOU, but that's hardly ever the case.

I'm in central florida. Only minutes from titusville. Pretty big gun culture in florida, I figured there would be at least something, but I guess it's not mountainous enough. LR community seems to be primarily based out west. There are some decent ranges here though. I'm lucky for that.

 

[AllenOne1]

The other one that I would add to your list is the Zeiss S3 6-36x56. I haven't got a chance to shoot with it but I did look through it and it appears to be very good at that price point. IMO you can't compare scopes unless you have them setup side by side adjusted for your eyes and looking at the same target.

The Nightforce scopes always appear to be too dark for me, but that's a personal preference. Buy the best scope you can afford, they easily move to the next gun.

 

[codym]

fellow "wrong hander" here ... did you mean to say "LSW"? When you're prone, using your support hand to adjust aim, I'd assume you prefer to dial wind with your shooting hand, like rightys do, so you don't have to break cheek weld or take your aim off target. or do you reach over the top and dial? I can see both arguments for why a lefty (or righty) would prefer the windage on either side. Pros and cons

Yes sir, you are correct lsw… gezzus