First I will admit that I’m not super accurate yet. However these shots were taken on a 12-17 MPH day. I consistently shoot about 1 MOA higher with standing/kneeling/sitting compared to bipod shooting (.223 RRA gas gun). My prone shots resetting the position each time seems to be fairly consistent. I wondered what tips people might have for lowering my standing/kneeling/sitting POI (or if it is the prone that needs to raise?) The pictures are my recent targets from prone and tall kneeling.
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POI Shift between positions
- Thread starter Joesmurf
- Start date
It sounds like you do not have a proper solid cheek weld, your eye is moving on plane in relation to reticle, target.
I am uneducated in precision marksmanship, I am a hunter, so I am curious to see what all the more experienced members have to say.
I am uneducated in precision marksmanship, I am a hunter, so I am curious to see what all the more experienced members have to say.
Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This
Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters. Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple...
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I tried to re-orient my eye in relation to the eye piece each shot, but that is something I’ve wondered about.
I’ve definitely done the Kraft drill and from it I’ve found the difference in my POI. So recently I’ve shot at separate targets to see what positions are at fault.Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This
Sniper's Hide and Chris Way of Kraft are partnering up to collect some data from Shooters. Chris is a very data-driven shooter, he is a competitive shooter and loves to analyze data. He Krafted a precision rifle course of fire designed to be shot at 100 yards and collect data from multiple...
Scope adjusted for parallax?
Is the rifle really back-end heavy? How does it balance?
Dry fire first.
Keep Your face on the gun. There should be no need to “reorient your eye”.
Are you loading really hard into the bipod in prone?
How hard are you leaning in to the support when in positions?
Describe your support for kneeling, for example. Is it wobbly? Are you using a bag? What kind?
Where’s your support hand in positional shooting?
maybe a pic?
Keep practicing and don’t fall for any nonsense about your zero being different in each position. Yes, positional zero shift happens but you will train until it is so minimal you never have to think about it again.
Is the rifle really back-end heavy? How does it balance?
Dry fire first.
Keep Your face on the gun. There should be no need to “reorient your eye”.
Are you loading really hard into the bipod in prone?
How hard are you leaning in to the support when in positions?
Describe your support for kneeling, for example. Is it wobbly? Are you using a bag? What kind?
Where’s your support hand in positional shooting?
maybe a pic?
Keep practicing and don’t fall for any nonsense about your zero being different in each position. Yes, positional zero shift happens but you will train until it is so minimal you never have to think about it again.
The parallax was adjusted. The gun is not balanced and is a little back end heavy. Probably about 4 ish inches in front of bag. I use a pint sized game changer with sand fill on a tripod. I lean into the bag and tripod a little. I tried some light and medium pressure into bag but didn’t notice too much difference. I’ll post a video of dry firing tonight. Thanks!
When you pull the trigger and the bullet starts to move, the rifle starts to move as well. In that fraction of a second the rifle will interact with your body, or a bag, or whatever it’s in contact with. If the rifle does not interact with something consistently, you’ll get a POI shift bc the barrel moves differently each time before the bullet exits.
A lot of guys like to pin the stock into the rear bag in prone, and then they’ll lean into the rifle on a barricade. These are very different pressures on the rifle so you’ll get a POI shift between the two positions.
The answer? What a lot of people do is basically free recoil everything- Set the rifle on the bipod and the bag and pull the trigger without disturbing it; balance the rifle on the barricade and pull the trigger without disturbing it, etc…. That works well for some people because of small calibers and brakes but if you get any amount of actual recoil, you’ll run into problems.
My solution is to always anchor the rifle into my shoulder and let the rifle interact with my body weight. So don’t pin the stock into the rear bag, pull the stock into your shoulder and use the bag to steady it. Don’t lean into the rifle on the barricade, pressure down on the barricade and pull the rifle into your shoulder. You want to do this with a relaxed shoulder so the rifle doesn’t just bounce off as that will give you a lot of poi shift. The advantage to doing it this way as you can control any amount of recoil pretty easily once you learn how to do it. People will say it doesn’t matter because brakes can eliminate recoil. But the skills that allow you to manage recoil are the exact same skills that give you the ability to shoot well with any rifle, from any surface, on any day. Learning recoil management is what makes you a better shooter. A lot of people can shoot small groups with bad fundamentals. You’ll never see anyone manage significant recoil with bad fundamentals.
A lot of guys like to pin the stock into the rear bag in prone, and then they’ll lean into the rifle on a barricade. These are very different pressures on the rifle so you’ll get a POI shift between the two positions.
The answer? What a lot of people do is basically free recoil everything- Set the rifle on the bipod and the bag and pull the trigger without disturbing it; balance the rifle on the barricade and pull the trigger without disturbing it, etc…. That works well for some people because of small calibers and brakes but if you get any amount of actual recoil, you’ll run into problems.
My solution is to always anchor the rifle into my shoulder and let the rifle interact with my body weight. So don’t pin the stock into the rear bag, pull the stock into your shoulder and use the bag to steady it. Don’t lean into the rifle on the barricade, pressure down on the barricade and pull the rifle into your shoulder. You want to do this with a relaxed shoulder so the rifle doesn’t just bounce off as that will give you a lot of poi shift. The advantage to doing it this way as you can control any amount of recoil pretty easily once you learn how to do it. People will say it doesn’t matter because brakes can eliminate recoil. But the skills that allow you to manage recoil are the exact same skills that give you the ability to shoot well with any rifle, from any surface, on any day. Learning recoil management is what makes you a better shooter. A lot of people can shoot small groups with bad fundamentals. You’ll never see anyone manage significant recoil with bad fundamentals.
BINGO! Start here. Great post. More have trouble with this than are willing to admit it.
-that’s quite a stack of stuff between the ground and the gun on top of the bag on top of the ballhead on top of the tripod.…see what I mean? Can you take the ballhead off and lay the bag on the apex of the tripod instead?
-if you let go of the gun on the tripod in the picture, does it stay or fall off. It certainly looks like the gun is going to be falling back into your lap. This is a balance thing. If you have to hold the muzzle down, it’s more likely to raise during lock time and send shots high.
-maybe try some “no-bag” (modern day sniper has a great training lesson that utilizes no bag prone) prone to make sure you are steering the gun with your hips/body and not doing the “rear bag smash”. It’s ~possible~ that your prone zero is actually a little high once you fine tune your body-rifle connection in prone and changing that will bring your positional groups down a little.
-try your support hand in other locations to apply down force as mentioned above. Over the top of your front scope ring or clamping the front of the bag like you are doing but more out on the front of the bag are two popular options. I don’t lean in to a barricade too much. Like Precision Underground mentioned, some down pressure on the top and some rear pressure on the shoulder. It’s a balance between leaning in and pulling back and pressing down and body alignment (hips and shoulders) and placement of the stock in your shoulder/chest…and it takes practice and experimentation.
More qualified people than myself in the above two posts are good voices to listen to.
-if you let go of the gun on the tripod in the picture, does it stay or fall off. It certainly looks like the gun is going to be falling back into your lap. This is a balance thing. If you have to hold the muzzle down, it’s more likely to raise during lock time and send shots high.
-maybe try some “no-bag” (modern day sniper has a great training lesson that utilizes no bag prone) prone to make sure you are steering the gun with your hips/body and not doing the “rear bag smash”. It’s ~possible~ that your prone zero is actually a little high once you fine tune your body-rifle connection in prone and changing that will bring your positional groups down a little.
-try your support hand in other locations to apply down force as mentioned above. Over the top of your front scope ring or clamping the front of the bag like you are doing but more out on the front of the bag are two popular options. I don’t lean in to a barricade too much. Like Precision Underground mentioned, some down pressure on the top and some rear pressure on the shoulder. It’s a balance between leaning in and pulling back and pressing down and body alignment (hips and shoulders) and placement of the stock in your shoulder/chest…and it takes practice and experimentation.
More qualified people than myself in the above two posts are good voices to listen to.
So in your first post the first picture is a target you are grouping around. In the second picture you are shooting at the middle target and hitting high? This exacty same thing happens to me when shooting off a rooftop barricade. When I shoot prone, standing at a barricade and even kneeling at a barricade I'm pretty good. Kneeling and hunched up real bad behind the gun on the rooftop I push my group way up.
In the blue circle all the way to the right was 10 shots prone, then moving left was 2 five shot groups from a barricade, then the left most target is from the rooftop. Pushed the group up into the next target up. This is at 50 yards with a 22. If I lay sideways on the roof instead of being on my knees I have way less shift.
In the blue circle all the way to the right was 10 shots prone, then moving left was 2 five shot groups from a barricade, then the left most target is from the rooftop. Pushed the group up into the next target up. This is at 50 yards with a 22. If I lay sideways on the roof instead of being on my knees I have way less shift.
