Police Perplexed: D.C. Carjackings Spike 111% After Lack of Prosecutions

[PatMiles]

Police Perplexed: D.C. Carjackings Spike 111% After Lack of Prosecutions

Police appear to not know why carjackings in D.C. increased 111 percent in the first ten months of 2023 compared to the same period in 2022.

www.breitbart.com

Police appear to not know why carjackings in Washington, DC, dramatically increased 111 percent in the first ten months of 2023 compared to the same time period in 2022, even though authorities refused to prosecute 67 percent of those arrested last year.
A total of 760 carjackings occurred in the first ten months of 2023 in the nation’s capital, police statistics show. During the same time period in 2022, 360 carjackings occurred.
The number of carjacking in 2023 is higher than in 2018, 2019, and 2020 combined.
Carjackings occur nearly everywhere in the District. The hot spots are near the H Street Corridor and across the Anacostia River bordering Maryland, police data shows.
Those arrested for jacking cars are primarily below 18 years of age. Sixty-five percent of those arrested are juveniles, according to police data.
U.S. Attorney for D.C. Matthew Graves suggested in August that his office would crack down on some crimes involving juveniles. His office does not generally prosecute them. According to 2022 District statistics, Graves refused to prosecute 67 percent of those arrested who could have stood trial in the D.C. Superior Court. Among juvenile crime, he refused to prosecute 26 percent, according to data obtained by the Washington Post.
President Joe Biden nominated Graves to his position in 2021, and the Senate confirmed him.
“A majority of the individuals arrested for robberies and a super majority of the individuals arrested for carjackings are juveniles,” Graves admitted. “In general, our office does not have a role in prosecuting juveniles for armed robberies, and consequently armed carjackings. We do, though, have the ability to charge 16 and 17-year-olds as adults.”
D.C. juvenile court has jurisdiction over delinquent acts, according to the District: “Delinquent acts include crimes against persons, crimes against property, drug offenses, and crimes against public order.” Prosecutors in juvenile court must file a petition to transfer juveniles to criminal court for prosecution as an adult. The U.S. Attorney’s Office then prosecutes the juveniles in the adult system from a statutory list of serious crimes.
Police say the U.S. Attorney’s Office has first right of refusal to prosecute the juveniles, Assistant Chief of the Investigative Services Bureau Carlos Heraud told reporters this week. “Every time we have a 16- or 17-year-old that’s been arrested for a carjacking or a Title 16 eligible offense, we present it to the U.S. Attorney’s Office first — give them the right to refuse before we present the case to the office of the Attorney General.”
Despite Graves’ refusal to prosecute 26 percent of juvenile crime, Heraud appeared confused about why juvenile carjackings would increase. “I think if we knew the ‘why,’ we’d be able to address this much better. We have to get in the heads of those juveniles and see: Is it social media-run? Is it a lack of consequence that’s contributing to this? Is it conversations that they’re having in school?”
On Monday, thieves carjacked Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX) in Navy Yard, a community within a short walking distance of the Capitol Building.
“They came out of nowhere and they pointed guns at me. I do have a black belt, but I recognize when you got three, three guns, yeah, I looked at one with a gun another with a gun, no one behind me,” Cuellar told reporters on Tuesday. “So they said they wanted my car[.] I said, ‘Sure.’ You got to keep calm under those situations and then they took off. They recovered the car, they recovered everything.”


Carjackings are just one crime that soared this year. Overall, total violent crime increased during 2023 in the District, police data shows, up nearly 40 percent year over year.

HILARIOUS!!
FREEKIN MORONS!!

 

[roostercogburn98]

 

[wade2big]

Police are aware of only a small percentage of crimes that take place. Police only solve a small percentage of the crimes they are aware of. Courts only convict an even smaller percentage of the crimes the police actually solve. It’s a shame so much money is waisted (stolen) on law enforcement in the name of safety. It’s all a scam. Law enforcement is for gov’t’s protection, not yours. Law enforcement is so gov’t can control you, not the street thug. If gov’t was on your side they would declare to the public open season on criminals without gov’t (police) interference. They won’t. All you need to know.

 

[Winningdog]

Police are aware of only a small percentage of crimes that take place. Police only solve a small percentage of the crimes they are aware of. Courts only convict an even smaller percentage of the crimes the police actually solve. It’s a shame so much money is waisted (stolen) on law enforcement in the name of safety. It’s all a scam. Law enforcement is for gov’t’s protection, not yours. Law enforcement is so gov’t can control you, not the street thug. If gov’t was on your side they would declare to the public open season on criminals without gov’t (police) interference. They won’t. All you need to know.

If the government wanted to slow or stop crime they wouldn't be letting criminals cross the borders by the bus load.

 

[Ronws]

Police are aware of only a small percentage of crimes that take place. Police only solve a small percentage of the crimes they are aware of. Courts only convict an even smaller percentage of the crimes the police actually solve. It’s a shame so much money is waisted (stolen) on law enforcement in the name of safety. It’s all a scam. Law enforcement is for gov’t’s protection, not yours. Law enforcement is so gov’t can control you, not the street thug. If gov’t was on your side they would declare to the public open season on criminals without gov’t (police) interference. They won’t. All you need to know.

Horror of horrors, I do have to agree with this analysis, functionally. Not an ACAB thing, just saying that if the govt really wanted to get rid of these thugs, they would do so. Or allow and (sit down Wade, this could hurt) deputize citizens to stop crime when they see it with whatever means at hand.

 

[quietmike]

Easy fix if you're familiar with the cornfield scene from the movie Casino.

 

[MadDuner]

If you never stop the guy that does this - doesn’t the number continue to climb until you do?

 

[dustingaunder]

If you want to see swift action from the law, solve the crime yourself.

 

[nagantguy]

Now it might not be fair to blame this on the badge boys - I mean they are kept pretty busy shooting trespassing veterans and looking for old guys with those deadly “machine pistols “ you know 1911’s with a detachable magazine. O and writing tickets for no tabs/registration on those electronic scooters that don’t by law require tabs and registration. Can’t be bothered by car Jackings and or people pulling fire alarms on federal grounds.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Perplexed… that’s like when the thieves stole all the toilets out of the police station and the cops had nothing to go on!

Perplexed…. Do we need to bring Columbo out of retirement to figure this one out? Because even Clouseau would have this little statistical mystery figured out faster than you can say “Does your dog bite?”

Perplexed… hummmmmmm.

Sirhr

 

[davsco]

with no repercussions, crime not only doesn't stop, it grows.

 

[Rthur]

R

 

[mikeshaw2]

when I was growing up here, DC was the murder capitol of the nation.

Seems we're getting back there

Shame cause they cleaned up the city thru the 90s and 00s only to have that effort wasted

M

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I
DON'T
CARE!

Take your bitter pill assholes.
I hope the #1&&3rz kill all you motherfuckers.

 

[Conaso]

At what age can a child be charged with a crime in Maryland?

A child under the age of 13 cannot be charged with a crime.Apr 12, 2023

 

[lonegunman762x51]

Those damned white people are out of control! Their damned white privilege means they think the car they bought it actually their's.

Oh wait! Whitey ain't jackin dem fools. Opps.

 

[JM4590]

News flash!

Defund their ass, BLM, ACAB, get rid of Qualified Imunity….

While your Lexus is getting jacked, while your daughter is getting sexually assaulted in the gender neutral bathroom, while your tractor gets stolen from your unlocked shed, while Pedro camps out in your back yard, while Russian hackers break into your unsecured computer with virus protect from 1990, and finally, while your neighbors jack Russel shits in your $2000 rose bed……

Johnny Blue IS STILL KNOCKING DOWN OVER 100k A YEAR…….


AND STILL DON’T GIVE A FUCK!

 

[nagantguy]

Dozens of NY law enforcement leaders stranded in Israel during counterterrorism training

Westchester County DA Miriam E. Rocah confirmed that six law enforcement leaders from Westchester County are among a 32-member New York delegation stranded in Israel.

www.foxnews.com

Right they don’t t give a fuck so much that the ones from NYC are currently in Israel training supposedly in anti terrorism.

But the city that’s paying for them to be over seas has over 30,000 unsolved murders and over 21,000 missing persons. But of course the priority would be paramilitary training on foreign soil. Of course it’s the priority.

 

[wade2big]

Dozens of NY law enforcement leaders stranded in Israel during counterterrorism training

Westchester County DA Miriam E. Rocah confirmed that six law enforcement leaders from Westchester County are among a 32-member New York delegation stranded in Israel.

www.foxnews.com

Right they do t give a fuck so much that the ones from NYC are currently in Israel trains supposedly in anti terrorism.

But the city that’s paying for them to be over seas has over 30,000 unsolved murders and over 21,000 missing persons. But of course the priority would be paramilitary training on foreign soil. Of course it’s the priority.

We can only hope they don’t make it back.

 

[cas6969]

Vast right wing conspiracy?

Trump’s fault?

Who knows , I’m sure there must be a reason, but we’ll likely never figure it out

 

[Ronws]

We can only hope they don’t make it back.

Damn it, I don't care who you are and I am friendly to cops but that is funny.

 

[NoDopes]

Law enforcement is for gov’t’s protection, not yours

This is why they pulled out all stops to attack the peaceful protestors of J6. Challenging the stolen 2020 election is a direct threat to their existence.

 

[TheHorta]

If you want to see swift action from the law, solve the crime yourself.

They’ll crucify you for daring to defend yourself or interfere with any violent crime.

Much easier to go after Joe Law Abiding Citizen than career criminals who are actually dangerous.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

111% of 360 is 399, not 760…

I don’t doubt that crime in DC is increasing, but when the journalist can’t even math that right in the title I’m not going to trust anything else in the article to be accurate either.

 

[wade2big]

111% of 360 is 399, not 760…

I don’t doubt that crime in DC is increasing, but when the journalist can’t even math that right in the title I’m not going to trust anything else in the article to be accurate either.

Your math and comprehension is wrong. That’s embarrassing.

 

[AZLong]

111% of 360 is 399, not 760…

I don’t doubt that crime in DC is increasing, but when the journalist can’t even math that right in the title I’m not going to trust anything else in the article to be accurate either.

The INCREASE was 111%. Are you saying if it increased 100%, it would still be 360? Think about it for a minute
I think they mathed it gooder than you.

 

[NoDopes]

If you have 1000 primers, and you increase your stash 100%, you now have 2000 primers.*

*Assuming you haven't shot any during that time.

 

[OkieMike]

Heinlein had a fantastic treatise on juvenile criminals in Starship Troopers. That book should be required reading in every school.

And while the next quote wasn't necessarily concerning crime, it still applies:

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.”

Jeff Cooper seemed to agree:

"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim."

Mike

 

[Ronws]

Heinlein had a fantastic treatise on juvenile criminals in Starship Troopers. That book should be required reading in every school.

And while the next quote wasn't necessarily concerning crime, it still applies:

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.”

Jeff Cooper seemed to agree:

"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim."

Mike

I read all of Heinlein's books, including that one. And Verhoeven nearly ruined with his Robocop horseshit. However, the actors did a great job. As if they had read the book and saw that it was a character driven story. What you quoted is one of the lessons that Rico learns. The story is about his evolution from high school ball player and crazy kid to a grown man who contributes to society. Special nod to actors Casper Van Diem, Michael Ironside, and Clancy Brown. And also Dina Meyer, who played Dizzy. She is the archetypical woman in Heinlein's stories.

"Who wants to live forever?!"

 

[Maxduty]

Police Perplexed: D.C. Carjackings Spike 111% After Lack of Prosecutions

Police appear to not know why carjackings in D.C. increased 111 percent in the first ten months of 2023 compared to the same period in 2022.

www.breitbart.com

Police appear to not know why carjackings in Washington, DC, dramatically increased 111 percent in the first ten months of 2023 compared to the same time period in 2022, even though authorities refused to prosecute 67 percent of those arrested last year.
A total of 760 carjackings occurred in the first ten months of 2023 in the nation’s capital, police statistics show. During the same time period in 2022, 360 carjackings occurred.
The number of carjacking in 2023 is higher than in 2018, 2019, and 2020 combined.
Carjackings occur nearly everywhere in the District. The hot spots are near the H Street Corridor and across the Anacostia River bordering Maryland, police data shows.
Those arrested for jacking cars are primarily below 18 years of age. Sixty-five percent of those arrested are juveniles, according to police data.
U.S. Attorney for D.C. Matthew Graves suggested in August that his office would crack down on some crimes involving juveniles. His office does not generally prosecute them. According to 2022 District statistics, Graves refused to prosecute 67 percent of those arrested who could have stood trial in the D.C. Superior Court. Among juvenile crime, he refused to prosecute 26 percent, according to data obtained by the Washington Post.
President Joe Biden nominated Graves to his position in 2021, and the Senate confirmed him.
“A majority of the individuals arrested for robberies and a super majority of the individuals arrested for carjackings are juveniles,” Graves admitted. “In general, our office does not have a role in prosecuting juveniles for armed robberies, and consequently armed carjackings. We do, though, have the ability to charge 16 and 17-year-olds as adults.”
D.C. juvenile court has jurisdiction over delinquent acts, according to the District: “Delinquent acts include crimes against persons, crimes against property, drug offenses, and crimes against public order.” Prosecutors in juvenile court must file a petition to transfer juveniles to criminal court for prosecution as an adult. The U.S. Attorney’s Office then prosecutes the juveniles in the adult system from a statutory list of serious crimes.
Police say the U.S. Attorney’s Office has first right of refusal to prosecute the juveniles, Assistant Chief of the Investigative Services Bureau Carlos Heraud told reporters this week. “Every time we have a 16- or 17-year-old that’s been arrested for a carjacking or a Title 16 eligible offense, we present it to the U.S. Attorney’s Office first — give them the right to refuse before we present the case to the office of the Attorney General.”
Despite Graves’ refusal to prosecute 26 percent of juvenile crime, Heraud appeared confused about why juvenile carjackings would increase. “I think if we knew the ‘why,’ we’d be able to address this much better. We have to get in the heads of those juveniles and see: Is it social media-run? Is it a lack of consequence that’s contributing to this? Is it conversations that they’re having in school?”
On Monday, thieves carjacked Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX) in Navy Yard, a community within a short walking distance of the Capitol Building.
“They came out of nowhere and they pointed guns at me. I do have a black belt, but I recognize when you got three, three guns, yeah, I looked at one with a gun another with a gun, no one behind me,” Cuellar told reporters on Tuesday. “So they said they wanted my car[.] I said, ‘Sure.’ You got to keep calm under those situations and then they took off. They recovered the car, they recovered everything.”


Carjackings are just one crime that soared this year. Overall, total violent crime increased during 2023 in the District, police data shows, up nearly 40 percent year over year.

HILARIOUS!!
FREEKIN MORONS!!

But it's already illegal to steal and commit crimes, so double crime. And possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony is another crime, so triple crime. I think they negate each other, so they don't prosecute.

 

[fpgt72]

I thought it was going to be the Bee, sad again.

 

[Conaso]

And across the Potomac River in Virginia, where both open and concealed carry is permitted by law, there rarely is a report of carjacking, numerous robberies, random gun violence, or children and bystanders being shot. I wonder why that is?

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Heinlein had a fantastic treatise on juvenile criminals in Starship Troopers. That book should be required reading in every school.

I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as murder were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America -- Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home-made guns, bludgeons ... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably -- or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assult, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places -- these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools, I simply couldn't. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one -- "Mr. Dubois, didn't they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don't get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad ... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn't happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a 'juvenile delinquent.'"

"Uh, one of those kids -- the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said -- "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit. 'Juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err ... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn't know any better; he was just a puppy."

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up, "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn't he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn't know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn't then know what a sadist was -- but I know pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you've never raised pups."

"Many. I'm raising a daschund now -- by your methods. Let's get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class ...and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. Newspapers and officials usually kept their names secret -- in many places this was the law for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as 'cruel and unusual punishment.'" Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment -- and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mecahnism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh ... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house ... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken -- whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why ... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh ... why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."

 

[OkieMike]

^^^ Thank you MP

Mike

 

[mikeshaw2]

I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as murder were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America -- Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home-made guns, bludgeons ... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably -- or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assult, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places -- these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools, I simply couldn't. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one -- "Mr. Dubois, didn't they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don't get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad ... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn't happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a 'juvenile delinquent.'"

"Uh, one of those kids -- the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said -- "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit. 'Juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err ... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn't know any better; he was just a puppy."

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up, "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn't he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn't know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn't then know what a sadist was -- but I know pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you've never raised pups."

"Many. I'm raising a daschund now -- by your methods. Let's get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class ...and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. Newspapers and officials usually kept their names secret -- in many places this was the law for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as 'cruel and unusual punishment.'" Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment -- and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mecahnism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh ... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house ... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken -- whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why ... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh ... why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."

you can tell how old that book is by the fact that there's a father around to get flogged with the child.

M

 

[96coal449]

If the government wanted to slow or stop crime they wouldn't be bringing criminals cross the borders by the bus load.

FIFY

 

[96coal449]

And across the Potomac River in Virginia, where both open and concealed carry is permitted by law, there rarely is a report of carjacking, numerous robberies, random gun violence, or children and bystanders being shot. I wonder why that is?

The river?

 

[Conaso]

FIFY

These are home-grown criminals, not imported. And if under 13yo, they cannot be charged with a crime. Isn't that special!

 

[Ronws]

I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy. Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as murder were as common as dogfights. The Terror had not been just in North America -- Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home-made guns, bludgeons ... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably -- or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assult, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places -- these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools, I simply couldn't. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one -- "Mr. Dubois, didn't they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don't get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad ... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn't happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a 'juvenile delinquent.'"

"Uh, one of those kids -- the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said -- "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit. 'Juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err ... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn't know any better; he was just a puppy."

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up, "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn't he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn't know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn't then know what a sadist was -- but I know pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he's in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won't do it again -- and you have to do it right away! It doesn't do a bit of good to punish him later; you'll just confuse him. Even so, he won't learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it's a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you've never raised pups."

"Many. I'm raising a daschund now -- by your methods. Let's get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class ...and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. Newspapers and officials usually kept their names secret -- in many places this was the law for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as 'cruel and unusual punishment.'" Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual' punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment -- and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mecahnism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh ... probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I'm not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped --"

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called 'juvenile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal -- and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder."

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house ... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken -- whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why ... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh ... why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."

It's called operant conditioning. Creatures seek reward and avoid punishment. Punishment is a stimulus that tends to cause a behavior to cease or drop in repetition.

The peeing puppy, for instance. Here is how most people fail at training the puppy. He pees, you call him, he comes to you and then you beat him on the snout. You, the idiot human think that he is following your train of thought. What you, the idiot human just did was punish him for coming to you. Because he is identifying the punishment with the most recent or last action, which was coming to you. For a punishment to work, the dog has to see it as a punishment to be avoided and also connect it to the behavior that is to be stopped.

My dog originally belonged to a friend who would wrestle with him as a puppy. I got him at 1 year a 3 months. 26 inches to the shoulder, 3 feet long from snout to tail set, able to run about 35 mph with double gait suspension (all four limbs in the air, like a greyhound.) He as a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab. My wife is 5' 5" and he could stand and put his paws on her shoulder.

I was trying to break him of the habit of jumping on people. He played hard. So, I would grab him by the scruff of the neck and pin him to the ground, intending to show my dominance and punsh him. What I did he interpreted as wrestling. I just accidentally rewarded the behavior I was trying to stop.

But I could get a tone in voice that would make him cower, without touching him.

What made him stop jumping on people and chasing the cat (the cat usually started it,) was rewards. Not because I am wishy-washy but because it worked. Most obedience like sit and stay, I could with regular dog treats. But if I commanded "off" when he was chasing the cat, he would halt, almost in mid-air and come to me and for that, he got a piece of grilled pork or smoked brisket, even if I had to go to the fridge to get it.

He identified my delicious cooking as a reward. And he identified with listening to me.

Same goes with dolphins and humans. For the kids, there is no reward in behaving correctly. Primarily because there is no punishment for doing wrong. Aside from that, there are some bad eggs who cannot be changed.

Or am I saying that my dog was a better class of being than a lot of humans? Well, yes, that is also a good point.

But the hoodlums do what they do because it is rewarding enough to keep doing it. And the punishment is not strong enough and linked to the bad behavior.

When I was growing up, justice did have a sliding scale. Some things, you might get a warning the first time, a spanking the second time. And the spankings hurt enough that generally, we did not get a second spanking for the same thing. And neither my brother or I have been arrested or to jail.