powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

P

pengilly

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 21, 2007
236
18
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Pengilly, MN, USA
#1
for the most accurate long range loads , how many numbers left of the decimal point would you use?
Here is what I found....might be touch over kill

QTY. 1. DENVER INSTRUMENT CO.BALANCE DUAL RANGE, WEIGHING RANGE: 205G / 52G ID: 1131, MODEL: AB 250D, S/N: B043547, (RANGE 4 DIGITS RIGHT OF DECIMAL POINT OR 5 DIGITS RIGHT OF DECIMAL) 0.0000 OR 0.00000, 0.1 MG OR 0.01 MG GLASS ENCLOSED, WITH MOTORIZED DOORS, READABILITY 0.1 MG/0.01 MG, REPRODUCEABILITY 0.1/0.03 MG. BUILT IN OPERATIONS MANUAL, BELOW PAN WEIGHING SPECIFIC GRAVITY CAPIBILITY, WITH FUNCTIONS FOR VOLUMETRIC CALCULATIONS, .



 
#3
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

you may wish to do a search here on the HIDE an look for "Prometheous"

i loaded complete 50 rounds....all jocked up w/varget to the 1/4 particle of powder, consistent repetitive and accurate....in 14 minutes
 
#4
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

When running experiments, I start with 0.5 gr to get in the right ball park. Then a sweep of 0.1 to find the center of the window. Then a sweep in 0.033 to find the width of the acceptable charge weight window. Once I know the width of this window, I set the thrower up; and throw and go.
 
#5
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you may wish to do a search here on the HIDE an look for "Prometheous"

i loaded complete 50 rounds....all jocked up w/varget to the 1/4 particle of powder, consistent repetitive and accurate....in 14 minutes </div></div>

Yeah those things are sick lol. I don't think I'm capable of shoot good enough to put that thing to use tho.

I use a Lyman DPS and through within a tenth of a grain. I use Dillon's powder measure for loading .223 ball. Surprising how accurate that thing will throw with ball powder.
 
#7
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

If you're asking this question, you skipped a step. The first question YOU need to answer is, "How accurate is accurate?" What are you looking to shoot that requires the knat's ass for powder weight?
Here's what I'd suggest: take your designated load and find the velocity. Now, what charge weight are you using to get that velocity? This is a rough calculation, but surprisingly accurate: Take velocity and divide it by charge weight x 10. Find out how much a 0.1 grain difference correlates to in velocity change. Now, plug that velocity change into a ballistics program, and find out how much change in drop you get at your max expected distance. From there, you'll know what requirements YOU need for charge weight consistency. Hint: If you're not stretching your chosen load into the range where the bullet is almost dropping out of the sky, as much as a full grain of powder ain't going to account for much at all (assuming your brass/primer/load length/concentricity/neck tension/moon phase are all "right"). Example: 175 gr SMK in a .308. Velocity is ~ 2580 fps, loaded with about 43 grains of powder. 60 feet per second between two shots means one shot impacts 0.13" lower on a 100 yard target than the other. You've got to stretch it out to almost 600 yards before that 60 fps difference means one minute. How accurate you want to be? That's the question you need to answer...

Respectfully,
 
#8
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

+1 on the acculab...throw the charge to within .1 to .2 of the weight I'm looking for and trickle the rest to within +/- .02.

Closer than I need to be to make a difference, but it moves pretty quickly once you get a feel for the trickler.
 
#9
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I have produced sub MOA ammo at 1000 yards with ammo that was loaded +/- one tenth of a grain to +/- two tenths of a grain (.1-.2). (If my thrower throws to .1 of a grain of the charge weight I am trying to achieve, I dump the powder charge in the case, then my scale is only accurate to .1 of a grain so that leaves a play of possibly +/- .2)

If I were trying to win a benchrest competition I would maybe worry about trying to get more consistent than that. However, I now have reloads that can sling lead better than I can aim it!

If you can honestly see a difference in accuracy between .1 of a grain and .02 of a grain of powder you are ready to win any match you show up to.
 
#10
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

All,

One other thing: Some of the folks are tossing about 0.02 grains like it's a common number. Don't let that fool you. What you're talking about if you're REALLY talking 0.02 grains is 7,000 times 100. That number is 2/700,000 of a pound. A pound is 7,000 grains, or 70,000 TENTHS of a grain, or 700,000 HUNDREDTHS of a grain. Nobody, not nobody has got to measure to two hundredths of a grain, I don't care if you're a coke dealer! Now, the acculab might be able to hold that tolerance, but who's going to cut grains in halfs or thirds in order to get that number? As I said before in the above post: (assuming your brass/primer/load length/concentricity/neck tension/moon phase are all "right"). Don't worry about anything less than 0.2 grains for accuracy, unless you're shooting well past many hundred yards.
 
#12
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Charge weight sweet spot = charge weight tolerance. </div></div>

I agree 100%. If you have to measure that close for your load to be accurate then you need to change your load.
 
#13
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

On the Benchrest Site they are very happy with 0.1gr. accuracy

The money is in shooting and reading the wind, not the charge wt.
 
#14
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Yeah, don't get me wrong...that's just what I do. I'm not recommending anything.

1st, I'm new to the reloading thing...only be doing it for a couple of months. Take everything and anything I say with more than a couple of grains of salt. I'm here to learn myself.

2nd, I just do it to do it...I have the time and figure that more consistent = can't hurt. I'm just inclined to take it to as far as the scale will go.

Good to know being that retentive about it isn't really going to make any difference as compared to range estimation, position & technique, etc, etc....
 
#15
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use an acculab scale that measures to the 0.02 of a grain. Works well. </div></div>

Also use an acculab VIC 123 that measures to .02 grains if thats not close enough I quite!!!!!
 
#16
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Yep, .02 is one grain of stick powder, thats close enough for about anything we are going to do! Though, I know a couple guys that will cut kernels of powder in half! You know, if that makes them happy, great, but its purely a psychological gain, thats about it. But, its always good to walk to the line knowing your ammo is going to perform...thats a huge plus.


John
 
#19
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

One other thing: Some of the folks are tossing about 0.02 grains like it's a common number. Don't let that fool you. What you're talking about if you're REALLY talking 0.02 grains is 7,000 times 100. That number is 2/700,000 of a pound. A pound is 7,000 grains, or 70,000 TENTHS of a grain, or 700,000 HUNDREDTHS of a grain. Nobody, not nobody has got to measure to two hundredths of a grain, I don't care if you're a coke dealer! Now, the acculab might be able to hold that tolerance, but who's going to cut grains in halfs or thirds in order to get that number? As I said before in the above post: (assuming your brass/primer/load length/concentricity/neck tension/moon phase are all "right"). Don't worry about anything less than 0.2 grains for accuracy, unless you're shooting well past many hundred yards. </div></div>

1SJ, dunno if you are aware but there is a creature out there called the Prometheus that can measure/throw down to a single kernal. Users of said machine claim that the degree of accuracy it affords results on less vertical on the target out to 1k.

What's your thoughts on that?

Me personally I can't tell a hell of a lot of difference between weigh/trickle and just chucking them to within .1gr

You obviously have some experience is the area, so your thoughts would be appreciated
smile.gif
 
#21
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Most of the Bench shooters I know only weigh charges to set up their measure. Then everything is thrown when loading. They feel that consistent physical volume is more important than .01 or .1 grains.

Consistent technique with your powder measure is important.
 
#22
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former0302</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on the acculab...throw the charge to within .1 to .2 of the weight I'm looking for and trickle the rest to within +/- .02. </div></div>

Their website shows scales measuring in grams not grains, where are you
seeing a reloading scale they make? Same with denver inst. co. , their scales
may switch to read in grains but all their literature is in grams. You load in
grams instead of grains you can kiss this world goodby.
 
#23
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Acculabs and DI's can be set to whatever scale you wish, grams or grains or a few others.
former0302 was referring to grains with his post as the model he and I use is accurate to .02 grains(VIC-123).

I am not arguing the need, just the capability of the scale.
 
#24
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I would like to see some testing done to see if it really is worth it. Thrown vs .1 vs .01 I am willing to bet not.
 
#25
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see some testing done to see if it really is worth it. Thrown vs .1 vs .01 I am willing to bet not.</div></div>



its the ability to throw consistently, repetitively, and accurately,,, quickly to get good ammo....thats what the Prometheus do.
 
#26
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I am willing to bet that Federal doesn't weigh every charge with their GMM line of ammo. And I think we all know how well it shoots... in most rifles at least.

I pulled apart a couple and it was suprising on how much spread there was in each charge.
 
#27
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Even IF (a big if) it did make any difference, it would be very very small. Its not worth my time to count sticks of powder when I can't even shoot to the potential of my loads now at +/- .1 to .2 of a grain.

On my scale 4 to 5 sticks of Varget Weight .1 of a grain. If we call it 5 sticks of Varget to .1 of a grain, then my load of 43.1gr has 2155 sticks of Varget in it roughly. Do we really think that 2160 or 2150 sticks of Varget are going to make that much of a difference. If so, I think we need to start weighing primers too. Also if you load is sensitive to .1 gr of powder its time to find a new load.

If .1gr REALLY did matter then factory ammunition would suck, ALL of it. I've torn apart a bunch of it and most of it was +/- .5 gr for the extreme spread in weight. Even the Match Grade stuff.
 
#28
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

No one says you have to. Do whatever you want. I will do whatever I want and so will the next guy. The question in the first post was how accurate do you go. I know with my acculab loading to .02gr it is still faster then loading my rcbs beam scale to .5 or so if I am lucky. There is nothing wrong with loading to that accurate. If you dont want to then that is up to you right? I am still in the experiment stage myself, but if I can rule out the charge weight that is one less thing to screw up my shot.

Now if I could just get everything else that consistent life would be good. lol
 
#29
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shadow4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even IF (a big if) it did make any difference, it would be very very small. Its not worth my time to count sticks of powder when I can't even shoot to the potential of my loads now at +/- .1 to .2 of a grain.

On my scale 4 to 5 sticks of Varget Weight .1 of a grain. If we call it 5 sticks of Varget to .1 of a grain, then my load of 43.1gr has 2155 sticks of Varget in it roughly. Do we really think that 2160 or 2150 sticks of Varget are going to make that much of a difference. If so, I think we need to start weighing primers too. Also if you load is sensitive to .1 gr of powder its time to find a new load.

If .1gr REALLY did matter then factory ammunition would suck, ALL of it. I've torn apart a bunch of it and most of it was +/- .5 gr for the extreme spread in weight. Even the Match Grade stuff.

</div></div>

i see you really don't get it.....or you don't have that much trigger time....
to win matches and be consistent out long you need good ammo....no one that wins matches gets their ammo off the shelf...they build it to what the barrel likes, and watch the wear on the barrel and adjust the powder to match the degrading conditions of the barrel......champions keep a book on said barrels.....when they wear out or are out of usefulness....they get pitched.

so custom precise ammo wins matches....not the stuff you get from big brown.
 
#30
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so custom precise ammo wins matches....not the stuff you get from big brown.</div></div>

I expect that's true of F-class and benchrest matches, less true of XTC, and much less true of tactical rifle matches.

The last match I shot at Tacpro was won by a shooter with an Accuracy International shooting Black Hills. Same with the guy in second place.

Tactical matches are much more about shooting and thinking ability than about ammunition.
 
#31
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

You're right Boltripper, I just don't get any trigger time in.......I do all my shooting on the internet........ All my loading is on the internet too....... I get better groups this way
wink.gif


BTW, I don't shoot factory ammo, can't afford it, but i do have some friends that do, and we tore apart their rounds.

We all know you have a prometheus, we know it will weight to the Kernel of what every powder you are using, and if it makes you feel like you shoot better, than God bless you, use it. Hell if I could afford one I would buy one as well just for the speed of it.

Several months ago I did a test with ammo purposely loaded .1 tenth high and .1 tenth low of my OCW for this particular bullet I was shooting. I also had a test group that I shot as well with the most carefully weighed ammo that I could come up with. I shot these loads at 1000yards on paper, and across a chrony (every round fired went across the chrony on its way to the 1000 yard target). All in all there were about 40-50 rounds fired in this test and groups were fired in 5 shot groups. Every shot velocity was recorded as well as every group was recorded for relation to impact of POA and for vertical dispersion. The END result was that there was NO difference in Velocity, Extreme spread, OR Standard Deviation. Was it the most scientifically proven method to to evaluate this argument, no. But it was enough to prove to me that I don't need "Kernel" accuracy to to shoot Sub MOA to 1000.

I think it was said best above by Michael:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Charge weight sweet spot = charge weight tolerance. </div></div>
 
#32
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I'm a poor bastard... I use my RCBS 1010 to set my Redding Match-Grade Model 3BR Powder Measure and then check every 25 rounds or so (sometimes 50). This method seems to be accurate enough for my abilities. Quite frankly, I think the OP was trying to make a joke.
 
#33
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I throw every load with RCBS powder thrower and then scale every load with RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale and need be trickle. I do this to every load/every rifle/every pistol throw. Maybe im a little obssesive but I know every load is exact and right. Might take a little longer but im not loading thousands of rounds. Takes about 1hr to throw and scale weigh 150rds for me.
 
#34
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

Bottom line folks: We reload to have an affect on our outcome. For some it's a hobby, for others its a profession. It's what we do to focus our energy on something other than kids, honey-do's, mowing the lawn or watching grown men play games on the boob-tube. We are all here to enjoy common ground with fellow shooters. Don't get pissy if someone doesn't do it YOUR way. You are not master of the universe. Say your piece, give some advice, ask a question, seek input, then sit back and RELAX.

Sorry, just a little OT.
 
#35
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

I have only been doing this for a couple years.

With my .308 accuracy loads I trickle to the accuracy limit of my RCBS Rangemaster scale (which is 0.1 grain). I would like to have a more accurate scale, but I am not convinced that one grain one way or another would be enough to affect the impact of the round.

This is a hobby for me and it's "fun" to quest for the most accurate ammo for my rifle. I can do it at home in my garage and it's relaxing.

At work I shoot factory ammo.
 
#36
Re: powder measuring.....how accurate do you go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottom line folks: We reload to have an affect on our outcome. For some it's a hobby, for others its a profession. It's what we do to focus our energy on something other than kids, honey-do's, mowing the lawn or watching grown men play games on the boob-tube. We are all here to enjoy common ground with fellow shooters. Don't get pissy if someone doesn't do it YOUR way. You are not master of the universe. Say your piece, give some advice, ask a question, seek input, then sit back and RELAX.

Sorry, just a little OT. </div></div>

Indeed
smile.gif
 
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