Advanced Marksmanship Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

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Minuteman
    • Apr 12, 2001
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    Base of the Rockies
    www.snipershide.com
    #1
    Okay, I have read all the posts I really have cared to read regarding 100 yard groups, and practice when you don't access to longer ranges, and all that comes with rifles guaranteed to shoot sub half minute groups. And frankly we all should realize that 90% of the battle is the shooter and not the rifle.

    If we missed it, you should realize bullet manufacturers don't guarantee factory match ammunition to .25" and if you are going to chase handloads to find that perfect load you are gonna be stuck doing "load development" for a very long time.

    By now we should know where I stand with 100 yard groups. To refresh your memory, I can't stand them. I think they are counter productive to good shooting, and are simply a lesson in futility. So, with that, I have a target that I do think has practical application to help the tactical shooter. So, I made up a Sniper's Hide Practical Tactical Target for people to download and shoot.

    This Practical Tactical Target has a spot at the bottom for you to zero your rifle so you are centered up on the target. If you want to shoot 3 rounds or 5 rounds I don't care, you can even shoot one round cold bore there... the point being use the bottom target first. Then you'll find 15 very small targets for you to put 1 round on each target. You don't have to shoot them all in a row, you can mix it up, but the idea is to put one round in each target hitting the black. Practice this and you'll be much more proficient when it comes to engaging targets down the road, whether it be a 1000 yards or 1000 yards.
    Here are the links to the targets created by Sniper's Hide for Tactical Shooters.

    1. SH Dot Drill Target

    2. SH Advanced Dot Drill Target

    3. SH Competition Dot Drill

    4. SH Group Shot Target

    These are the most common ones features on the site.

    Here is a jpg of the actual target:
    SHPRACTACTRGT.jpg


    Good luck and keep practicing...
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Centuriator and Wlfdg
    #3
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Good Job Lowlight!!

    I too am sick of seeing/hearing about "snipers", "expert snipers", "tactical expert snipers" placing all emphasis on a group at a whopping 100 yards, from a bench, in a gun vice, with a mountain of sandbags, and no wind. Little do they realize they have no talent.

    You need to print these and take them with you to the Colorado Rifle Club next time you go!!!! Tons of people there could use them.....
     
    #4
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Came up at 121% on my printer, make sure to set it at 100% before printing.................or, I think you have an edge.Which most would not..................want.
     
    #6
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Very nice, Frank. Mucho appreciated!

    Usually what this sort of target exposes (for me, anyways) is the need to re-assess NPA each and every shot, especially when moving between targets - even close together on one sheet of paper like this. Symptoms usually include going from being able to drill little groups to scattering shots high, low, side-to-side. Humbling, to say the least.

    Actually, one of the more humiliating targets I've shot on recently was a 100yd Hunter BR target (score, not group). Those things are evil. I love a challenge, though
    wink.gif


    Thanks,

    Monte
     
    #7
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    I really like this. It is the antithesis of the BR game.

    Not that I dislike BR, I don't.

    But I think a Marksman is a shooter who can hit what they aim at, not shoot a buncha close shots somewhere near what they aim at.

    This puts the game back where it belongs.

    Nice job, and good thinking...

    Greg
     
    #9
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    This isn't a speed drill and I suspect more than enough people will have a hard time putting them all in the black without trying to go fast.

    Get it right going slow first, after that you can think about going fast. I trust it's not as easy as it looks.

    I expect bvt will be the first one to post his target cleaned.
     
    #11
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Thank you lowlight for posting these targets. I was getting caught up in trying to get 5 shots all in the bullseye on 100 yard benchrest target which has lead to some frustration.
    I think these target will make me concentrate more on my fundimental skills like breathing, trigger control,cheeck weld etc.
    thanks again for the targets and keep up the good work on the hide.

    Mac
     
    #12
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Been using a target like this for about a year now from http://www.mytargets.com/ They have a grid target down at the bottom of the page. It really helps being able to keep the shots on target and make you more confident in KYL drills.
     
    #13
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    You know, we shot a target almost just like that in 1998 at the Texas Pistol Academy shoot at Whiteright TX, put on by Robert Duhon.
    It was a speed drill that came down to RJ Smith and Sniper CJ.

    Cranford, you remember that one?
     
    #14
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    But I think a Marksman is a shooter who can hit what they aim at, not shoot a buncha close shots somewhere near what they aim at.
    </div></div>

    Greg,

    Sounds like maybe you should check out Hunter Benchrest, or VFS (Varmint For Score). Strictly score, no groups, and some *damn* hard targets IMO. Especially when you consider they shoot 5 targets, w/ 5 bulls on 'em. Definitely have to have your $tuff all in one sock! (I do not)

    Prone, from a bipod... the targets that Frank & Rob posted/linked are plenty hard enough for me. But if you want even more of a challenge...

    Monte
     
    #15
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Lowlight, you target looks familiar to me as it does to others, as a speed drill that I've done. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone's shooting ability- only critical of my own. But if you want a practical/tactical target excersize my thought would be for YOU to impose some kind of time limit, just to add some kind of added stress. Just trying to make a suggestion. Seeing your shooting videos with your rapid bolt manipulation doesn't send me message that you are some kind of "slow fire" kinda guy (again not being critical). But I've been wrong before.

    I just keep remembering the saying "we aren't that good, its just that everyone else sucks".
     
    #16
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    bvt, you obviously don't understand the concept of practice as I am not looking to "test" anyone with it. It is meant to give people an alternative to shooting groups in way that would help their shooting in other areas.

    Practicing a speed drill with 1/4" dots would be counterproductive as ask me.

    If I was going to tell someone to practice speed drills it would be on 3/4" to 1" dots and not 1/4". As well that goes with others who have responded, it's your decision, but I think a dot this small is not productive to speed drills. You can do it I suppose if you are up to the task, however I think a single round making every shot count is a good enough.

    This isn't a test, this is practice to build strong neural pathways to good habits and techniques... there is a difference.
     
    #17
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    O.K. my mistake. I do appreiciate the challenge as you presented it. Having someone that presents an alternate COF that make sense is tough to find. I, like most here are pretty limited to the ranges in our geographical area and envy those, like you, who have the oportunity to shoot at these incredible locals. Keep them coming.
     
    #18
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    The 1" Bullseye target near the bottom of the page on the link I posted above work well for speed drills.
     
    #19
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Frank's target forces you to reposition your body to your rifle with each shot, to get back to Natural Point of Aim, it gives you lateral movement as well as vertical movement.

    When you get this oh so subtle fine tune detail under control, you may find some interesting things about your shooting.

    When you master this target, you WILL find that your speed on target aquisition is improved on stress drills, that getting into NPA with small movements is much better than before, AND this target will translate into help with movers later as your skill level improves.

    Shoot more, talk less. .02
     
    #20
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Blast from the Hide's past. I use this target as my single-shot per target practice. To make it more stressful, I impose a time limit per shot requirement.

    snipershidetarget.jpg


    JeffVN
     
    #25
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blast from the Hide's past. I use this target as my single-shot per target practice. To make it more stressful, I impose a time limit per shot requirement.

    snipershidetarget.jpg


    JeffVN</div></div>

    Jeff
    Do you have the link for the target so we can download it? thanks
     
    #27
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Here is a link to the full-sized target (8.5x11).

    http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r404/JDVN/snipershidetarget-1.jpg

    If you want a Hide Target set up for for dueling (as in person on person competition shooting on the same target) my brother created one in Excell that you can print out in 11x17. It has two of the Hide targets side-by-side. Send me an email and I'll forward the file to you.

    JeffVN
     
    #29
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    At my local range they make you use their targets so i finally just got a rubber stamp and basically did that. Just stamp a shit ton of dots on the back of it and put one shot for each. way easier and cheaper than stickers
     
    #32
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    I'll embarrass myself more. I didn't print the target before I commented. My old computer monitor made some huge ass dots. Yeah, the dots are tiny. My bad. I'll try to throw some rounds at it and post so I can kinda justify my stupidity.
     
    #33
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Okay, I'll show my ignorance here again...
    The "Tactical Shoot" target mentions a shot touching the grey hostage, they're all grey, but I'm assuming the "hostiles" are the darker grey in multiples while the "hostages" are the lesser in number?
     
    #34
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blast from the Hide's past. I use this target as my single-shot per target practice. To make it more stressful, I impose a time limit per shot requirement.

    snipershidetarget.jpg


    JeffVN </div></div>

    That target's a blast, I'm glad I saved it as a pdf before the site changeover!
    Thanks for posting the link!!
     
    #35
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    I have been using the group target Frank made for single shots. The GAP reticle in my USO will most likely cover these dots. P.S. I'm not complaining.
     
    #37
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dial the power down... it won't cover the dots. </div></div>

    What difference would power setting make with an FFP reticle?

    I keep forgetting to print your target and tote it to the range with me.
    Will get around to it soon and post pics, should be good for a laugh.
     
    #38
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dial the power down... it won't cover the dots. </div></div>

    What difference would power setting make with an FFP reticle?

    I keep forgetting to print your target and tote it to the range with me.
    Will get around to it soon and post pics, should be good for a laugh.</div></div>

    You have it backwards, it doesn't matter with a SFP reticle the size remains the same, the FFP reticle will get smaller with less power.
     
    #39
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    I gotta disagree.
    laugh.gif


    The target should remain the same size relative to the reticle in an FFP reticle scope, power adjustment will accomplish nothing but a larger reticle "and" target, cover will remain the same.

    Only in an SFP reticle scope would a power change yield a better view of the target, and that would require a power increase.
     
    #41
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    Got one, SN-3.
    Not trying to be a prick.

    The nature of an FFP reticle is that the reticle remains the same size, proportional to the target. If power adjustment yields less or more cover of the target, there is something wrong.
     
    #42
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    that's fine, I like to dial my scopes down and use a finer reticle, works for me... I shot all day my 5-25X on 17X cause it puts the reticle in a nice place.

    Besides I don't think the reticles are 1/2" thick at 100 yards, but it might be, I never bothered to check.
     
    #43
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    1/2" at 100 would be a thick reticle, for sure.
    I believe my old eyes will survive the test with my SN-3, as I recall it is .125 MOA thick. My shooting will likely come into question.
    laugh.gif
     
    #44
    Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

    OK, I will post a target up! I see no one else has yet, so if this is not supposed to be in this thread, SORRY!

    Got out today 100 yards, 65*, light wind 2-3 from about 9:30, RH 70% - Pretty nice day except for the mosquitos!

    Fouled cold bore in the bottom right hand target - 4 rounds in the sight in target at the bottom of the Practical Target and then one shot each dot.

    May not be the best to be posted but pretty happy for the first try!

    100_0522.jpg
     
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