So if using a brake that is a mount for a suppressor you would just red loc tire and use minimal torque ?
With a thermo fit barrel / upper you don’t need green loc tite?
Precision AR -15 10 shot moa groups
- Thread starter Rimfire77
- Start date
With a thermo fit barrel / upper you don’t need green loc tite?
I don't know if you NEED loctite but as an example, the RD/ Proof barrel that comes thermal fit is also loctited.
I didn't loctite it's replacement and it shoots better than the factory barrel
Old thread, timeless topic.
Much more than just the gun when shooting 10 shot groups, even with a capable gun & capable ammo.
Concentration & technique become paramount. Mainting cheek weld & consistent sight picture is very hard over 10 shots with a gas gun, even with bags like the Bull's mentioned in previous comments.
Truly it takes a supberb effort to shoot 10 shot <MOA, consistently by most people.
As time has passed, I think shooting a series of 5x5's is a better assessment of the system (shooter, gun, ammo) than is 10 shots for MOST shooters. At least for me, & in MHO.
None of my "working" guns have PRS stocks nor do they have very heavy profile barrels, as they are intended for purposes other than bench competition, but the stock (& subsequent improvement in consistent cheek weld) & barrel weight/stiffness are big steps forward in group shooting.
And, I've come more to subscribe to what Jack Leuba is trying to relate in this old article. Let's Talk About Accuracy
Also, here's a link to another long running thread about "regular" guys chasing the 10 shot / MOA Grail as well for your reading enjoyment.
Black Rifle Challenge
MM
Much more than just the gun when shooting 10 shot groups, even with a capable gun & capable ammo.
Concentration & technique become paramount. Mainting cheek weld & consistent sight picture is very hard over 10 shots with a gas gun, even with bags like the Bull's mentioned in previous comments.
Truly it takes a supberb effort to shoot 10 shot <MOA, consistently by most people.
As time has passed, I think shooting a series of 5x5's is a better assessment of the system (shooter, gun, ammo) than is 10 shots for MOST shooters. At least for me, & in MHO.
None of my "working" guns have PRS stocks nor do they have very heavy profile barrels, as they are intended for purposes other than bench competition, but the stock (& subsequent improvement in consistent cheek weld) & barrel weight/stiffness are big steps forward in group shooting.
And, I've come more to subscribe to what Jack Leuba is trying to relate in this old article. Let's Talk About Accuracy
Also, here's a link to another long running thread about "regular" guys chasing the 10 shot / MOA Grail as well for your reading enjoyment.
Black Rifle Challenge
MM
Yeah I’m also currently chasing this dragon of seeing what reasonably good accuracy I can get out of an AR and hand loads.
I really fooled myself years ago when I first got my BCM 16” BFH ELW upper. Did some load development with it, first got some respectable 1.5” groups with Hornady 55gr FMJBT then went down the road of cloning the Mk262. I’m one who also prefers to shoot multiple 5 round groups also with no barrel cooling, for one, to see how POI shifts over time (Lately have been doing 8x5 or 9x5 but back then only did 3x5 or 4x5). I somehow have BallisticX pics of multiple .67-.9 MOA groups, maybe max 1.5 with my standard Mk262 load and this barrel and was like wow, this isn’t supposed to be a shooter, but it’s a shooter somehow and I apparently know what I’m doing.
I quit caring about shooting groups for a few years, other to sight in new rifles or optics, but came back to it a few months ago after picking up a new scope. Same rig, but different scope and mount, same load…groups averaging 1.5 MOA. Maybe one group barely MOA, but also groups over 2. Tried going from a rest to bags, same result. Tried different scope, same result. To test the scopes and mounts, shot series of groups with different rifle (BCM 14.5 BFH ELW) off bags and off rest and same result between the two scopes (both averaged 1.4-1.5 with a group or two over 2). The 14.5 is also suppressed and mirage gets pretty bad after the 3rd or 4th group. Shot the same load with a different rifle with nitrided barrel and 1-6x and still averaged about 1.4, but at least no groups over 2.
Yes I think a lot of it is me quite frankly although I know these aren’t precision barrels by any means, and this has given me a lot of practice. However I’ve never really tried a good, precision driven barrel in an AR so am going to try out a SOLGW/BHW 18” SPR barrel and see what I can do. Going to start over in load development for it then do a series of tests off bags, rests, and bipod. Testing is something I enjoy doing anyway, but it also gives me an excuse to get in a lot of practice with the fundamentals which I know I need work on anyways.
I firmly believe people oversell the importance of buying the peak of the peak of top barrels when building new guns for precision, as new shooters. When their fundamentals aren't good enough to realize the extra potential a peak custom barrel can offer. But there is an inverse logic that states, after a point it's hard to focus and work on you as the shooter when you don't have an accurate and precise barrel, ammo, and scope.
Let us know how that SOLGW SPR barrel does. It's been touted by a few folks. Be interesting to see how it's performance holds up over multiple samples.
I agree with this. Side note, I have wondered if my changing the muzzle device to a Hux flash hider from when the load was developed with the original Mod 0 Comp possibly contributed to an accuracy difference. Regardless, I also have been looking for an excuse to put together a precision type setup since it’s something I didn’t have.
Also, if I’m gonna spend a bunch of time trying to load match ammo then I’d like to be able take advantage of it. My main focus for many years has been go fast, practical type shooting, but it’s tough to know how you’re improving as a marksman if your equipment is iffy enough to blur the lines on if you were lucky or good that day.
I can't agree with that at all, if you're serious about attempting to shoot small groups, new shooter or not.
A high quality barrel from a known good & reliable source, takes one major variable off the table when you start trying to figure out what your problems are.
Obviously, you can't fully vet the barrel if you can't shoot, but a top end, or near top end barrel, is far more likely to be good than a more mundane version is.
Pay your money, take your chances, but it's never a bad decision to buy a good barrel.
MM
Paying for a good barrel and getting a good barrel are not always in the same universe.
But your chances are better...
Shooting 10 shot groups under or at 1" at 100 yds with an AR15 or AR10 can certainly be accomplished.
It usually takes alot of checking, correcting, & fitting to get it shooting and ya never know which corrective action or machining will be the major contributor to your success.
Muzzle devices do affect impact and accuracy especially heavy objects on the end of the barrel...like suppressors.
And ya need to be a reloader...to fine tune the ammo to the barrels preferences.
But your chances are better...
Shooting 10 shot groups under or at 1" at 100 yds with an AR15 or AR10 can certainly be accomplished.
It usually takes alot of checking, correcting, & fitting to get it shooting and ya never know which corrective action or machining will be the major contributor to your success.
Muzzle devices do affect impact and accuracy especially heavy objects on the end of the barrel...like suppressors.
And ya need to be a reloader...to fine tune the ammo to the barrels preferences.
Attachments
This is a prime example of two 6mm ARCs fired on the same day with the same match ammo.
The top group was typical 2'' to 2.5" 5 shot group from a store bought Areo Precision upper assembled by them.
The bottom 5 shot group is the first 5 shots ever fired out of this Proof barrel, with accuracy enhancements added and barrel glued in...first 5 shots into 1/2".
Then ya have to shoot the bullets the barrel likes ...same accurate 6mm ARC, 10 shots in a circle about 1" but the barrel doesn't like the bullet, a 70 gr Nosler, but it prefers the heavies 115 DTAC, the 108 Berger, 108 ELDM and similar, because it's a fast twist barrel, slinging the 70 gr Noslers in a circle.
So my varmint bullet of choice would not be the 70 gr Nosler with this barrel but a 108 ELDM or 108 Berger.
The top group was typical 2'' to 2.5" 5 shot group from a store bought Areo Precision upper assembled by them.
The bottom 5 shot group is the first 5 shots ever fired out of this Proof barrel, with accuracy enhancements added and barrel glued in...first 5 shots into 1/2".
Then ya have to shoot the bullets the barrel likes ...same accurate 6mm ARC, 10 shots in a circle about 1" but the barrel doesn't like the bullet, a 70 gr Nosler, but it prefers the heavies 115 DTAC, the 108 Berger, 108 ELDM and similar, because it's a fast twist barrel, slinging the 70 gr Noslers in a circle.
So my varmint bullet of choice would not be the 70 gr Nosler with this barrel but a 108 ELDM or 108 Berger.
Attachments
Ya don't need a premium barrel to have a good shooting AR...but it helps.
Here is an example ....a $300 AR 15 made from spare parts shoots tiny groups.
I built a 30 RAR for the cost of a reamer and the dies...everything else was repurposed
The barrel was a Remington 700 fluted factory barrel with over 8,000 rds on it.
Let's start with that ....cut it down cut out the chamber and most of the severe firecracking. Profile the barrel, take of the barrel extension from the factory 6mm ARC that shot 2.5" 5 shot groups.
Thread for the barrel extension, chamber, thread for brake, decide on rifle gas, turn gas block journal, drill gas port.
Repurposed gas block dia was to large, machine insert and drill appropriate holes for set screws and gas port.
See the 308 win still on the repurposed 700 barrel. Next the cut off old Rem bolt action chamber next to the rechambered AR 15 in 30RAR.
Ya even have to make the brass for the 30 RAR.
So how does a $300 AR shoot with a Rem 700 factory barrel with over 8000 rds, and repurposed and home built muzzle brake.
Well its capable of excellent accuracy especially for what it is. It will do the 10 shots in 1", as it's done 8 in .669" here.
The point is this is a repurposed parts gun, with a repurposed barrel with 8000 rds on it. This 308 Win barrel loved 155 Lapua bullets, it still does as a 30 RAR.
Absolutely no expensive parts purchased for this 30 RAR build...ya even have to make your own brass.
Ya do not need to spend excessively on an AR to get a good shooter.
Although I prefer a more expensive barrel to begin most projects.
Here is an example ....a $300 AR 15 made from spare parts shoots tiny groups.
I built a 30 RAR for the cost of a reamer and the dies...everything else was repurposed
The barrel was a Remington 700 fluted factory barrel with over 8,000 rds on it.
Let's start with that ....cut it down cut out the chamber and most of the severe firecracking. Profile the barrel, take of the barrel extension from the factory 6mm ARC that shot 2.5" 5 shot groups.
Thread for the barrel extension, chamber, thread for brake, decide on rifle gas, turn gas block journal, drill gas port.
Repurposed gas block dia was to large, machine insert and drill appropriate holes for set screws and gas port.
See the 308 win still on the repurposed 700 barrel. Next the cut off old Rem bolt action chamber next to the rechambered AR 15 in 30RAR.
Ya even have to make the brass for the 30 RAR.
So how does a $300 AR shoot with a Rem 700 factory barrel with over 8000 rds, and repurposed and home built muzzle brake.
Well its capable of excellent accuracy especially for what it is. It will do the 10 shots in 1", as it's done 8 in .669" here.
The point is this is a repurposed parts gun, with a repurposed barrel with 8000 rds on it. This 308 Win barrel loved 155 Lapua bullets, it still does as a 30 RAR.
Absolutely no expensive parts purchased for this 30 RAR build...ya even have to make your own brass.
Ya do not need to spend excessively on an AR to get a good shooter.
Although I prefer a more expensive barrel to begin most projects.
Attachments
Do you compete in any competitive, precision oriented shooting sports?
Do the rifles you compete with have a top tier barrel brand in them? A Bartlein, Krieger, Mullerworks, Brux, etc?
Do you always win or always place in the top 3?
See what I mean?
Yeah what’s that have to do with it. ?
If I miss I want to be as sure as I can it’s a software and not a hardware issue
Shooting a junk rifle with junk ammo isn’t the way to achieve that
No one's talking about junk. I'll explain it another way.
I have a 22GT with a McGowen (gasp) barrel. I've placed in the top 5 with that barrel than I have below the top 10. Meaning I regularly beat a lot of guys shooting top tier barrels with a reasonable mid-tier barrel. Like an hobby that focuses on all our performance you start paying inversely more for a product that generates minimal gains. If you're in the top 5% and scrapping for any potential advantage, sure. But if you're a new shooter, a mod tier barrel isn't going to hold you back and you'll simply be overpaying if you're buying a Bartlein.
Here's another example, and I'm sure you're familiar with it. The WOA barrel in my RD LPR. I paid $275 for it. It's not a $650 Bartlein Craddock. A new shooter probably wouldn't be able to use the accuracy potential of this barrel even .
I understand your point, not sure you understand mine or maybe just don't want to.
Using a barrel from a reliably known, generally accepted as accurate, source simply removes, or minimizes, one of the biggest factors in shooting small & consistent groups.
Obviously, the ones you mentioned are the cream of the crop................usually, but there are plenty of barrels that are consistently "good" just below that pinnacle.
Such as the Douglas that the OP has, WOA, Rock Creek buttoned, & Criterion to name a few.
So if the stated goal for a given shooter is to shoot small groups consistently, ie, 10 shots, <MOA, then it surely behooves one to start with a barrel considerably better that a Radical, BCA, Stoner etc.
Yeah, you might get a winner with one of the bottom feeder barrels, but the odds are HIGHLY against it. Why go to all the other efforts involved to reach the goal with a bargain basement barrel.
It's rare that one will make the goal with a low end rifle............not that it can't happen, but the deck is stacked against it.
In the case of the OP, he doesn't have a low end barrel, not a pinnacle barrel either, but a known, generally good barrel.
YMMV
MM
I didn't understand your point because I was talking about Bartlein Krieger etc and you disagreed on the basis of Douglas Criterion WOA Rock Creek. I assumed you were disagreeing with what I said, which wasn't mid tier. I was referring to the top tiers.
"Hey guys, new member here but been lurking a long time. I'm finally going to put together my first precision rifle. What's the absolute best barrel I can buy? I heard you should buy once and cry once." Sigghhh....
Similar threads
