Prefit vs Gunsmith Fit Barrel

[UIUCPPQ]

All,

Apologies if this amounts to a stupid question, truth be told I do not fully understand all the interactions that might take place between an action and a barrel.

I am considering upgrading my Remingrown 700 to a Big Horn Origin action and a match barrel. My options are: (1) buy the action and a prefit barrel and install the barrel to the action myself; or (2) buy the action and a blank and have a smith spin the barrel and install it for me.

Can someone with experience and knowledge on the topic tell me what differences (if any) I could expect between those two options? For the purposes of this discussion, assume I would install the prefit well.

Thank you.

 

[Ledzep]

TLDR: Vast majority of the time I would expect extremely similar performance from a prefit vs. a GS fitted barrel.

Several things go into an accurate barrel-- MOST of the work that matters is done by whoever rifles the bar stock. What I mean by that is take two theoretical identical barrels both made by Krieger, Bartlein, Proof Research, Benchmark, Shilen, Brux, Rock Creek, Hawk Hill, Criterion, etc... And have one cut as a prefit and one cut by a knowledgeable gunsmith, and both are machined correctly, I would expect them to shoot effectively indistinguishable from one another.

Barrel blank quality matters most, then it comes into the chamber and crown cut quality, and that's where you may see a higher incidence of problems with a mass produced prefit. I say MAY. It totally depends on who's running the machines. If Proof Research, for example, is cutting prefits for a Bighorn TL3, I have just as much trust in them as I do myself (I spin up my own barrels most of the time) or any of the big names that frequent here. Same goes for Bugholes making Bartlein barrel blanks into Savage prefits-- they hammer (Rifled blank quality-- Proof and Bartlein are both top notch).

The only things that a gunsmith can control that a pre-fit can't is where the bend in the barrel clocks, and the chamber. Most barrels have curvature to them and if a guy cares to dial it in you can clock the barrel so it curves straight up to 12 O'clock. Not every GS does this and most you have to ask for it specifically. Functionally it may save you a mil or two of elevation travel in your scope (assuming worst case scenario). The other big one is the chamber design. Most of the time you can get a gunsmith to cut you a specific chamber. If you want a short throated, tight necked .260 you're probably not going to get it from a prefit. If you want a Vanilla SAAMI spec 6.5 Creedmoor, it doesn't matter.

 

[hereinaz]

See above...

You probably can't shoot the difference between the two on a Bighorn. I can't.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

All,

Apologies if this amounts to a stupid question, truth be told I do not fully understand all the interactions that might take place between an action and a barrel.

I am considering upgrading my Remingrown 700 to a Big Horn Origin action and a match barrel. My options are: (1) buy the action and a prefit barrel and install the barrel to the action myself; or (2) buy the action and a blank and have a smith spin the barrel and install it for me.

Can someone with experience and knowledge on the topic tell me what differences (if any) I could expect between those two options? For the purposes of this discussion, assume I would install the prefit well.

Thank you.

It's not a stupid question at all. I prefer to think of two types of barrels. All barrels start off as a blank which is just a pipe with rifling in it.

Shouldered is what your 700 comes with. So it's turned in a lathe and has a shank section that fits through the recoil lug that's X thousandths of inches long creating a shoulder and then its threaded to the appropriate length for the action. Once the mechanical union between barrel and action is made, take it apart and chuck the barrel up in a lathe. Then you start running a chamber reamer into the barrel, stop periodically, assemble barrel to action and try to close the bolt on a headspace gauge. Once the chamber is cut properly, you torque the barrel on to however many ft. lb.

Then you have a prefit. You screw a barrel nut (and recoil lug) onto the barrel which then screws into the action but doesn't lock up to the action with a shoulder cut into the barrel but with the nut. The prefit already has the chamber cut so same theory. You put a headspace go gauge into the action, screw the barrel down until contacts the gauge and tighten the barrel nut to the action. You want either method to close on a go gauge and not on a no-go.

You can have a shouldered barrel made up for a Bighorn or use any Savage threaded pre-fit barrel, your choice.

Your Remington action has a different thread pattern but you can order a barrel nut and Remage prefit barrel and attach like it's a Savage action.

I tend to think it's more using a quality gunsmith to make a prefit from a quality rifled barrel, Bartlein, Krieger, etc. than whether the barrel is shouldered or a pre-fit. A good gunsmith can do either for you. You can ask for a prefit with a custom reamer rather than a generic SAAMI chamber if you go to a gunsmith. If you want to buy a barrel from Criterion you're probably just going to get that SAAMI chamber unless they have more options available.

On our end, it's just mechanical assembly and hard to screw up. Of course you could have the most accurate barreled action and if you botched up installing or bedding it to your stock you won't have good results.

 

[MakeSawdust]

It was stated well above. The only thing I will say is, I have more confidence in my gunsmith dialing the barrel in to near zero runout and taking his time to do the job than I do the big prefit barrel factories that do everything with Cnc machines. The potential is there in both instances to go both directions though.

As long as you use a quality blank, it will be very close. I have a ton of Criterion savage prefits that I run on a couple TL3 actions. Most shoot around 3/8 moa with some load development and good shooting.

When I screw on a shouldered TL3 barrel chambered by a top not gunsmith on a manual lathe (still technically a prefit, by the way), it is effortless to shoot a 3/8 moa group. Good shots go into one hole and the poor shots become fliers that open the group up to 3/8 moa. That is the difference to me.

Unless you need or want the gun to shoot super tight groups, a Criterion prefit gets you in the 1/2 to 5/8 moa range, nearly all the time, for about half the money. To me, it is the quality of the work done to the blank that makes the most difference. I have had gunsmiths do barrels on Criterion blanks and they shot better than the savage prefits. I have not had a Keystone barrel, but looking at groups from his green mountain blanks would also lead me to believe the smith work is more important, to a point, than the quality of the blank. This is in regards to precision potential, not cleaning or barrel life.

 

[The D]

There are some threads around here somewhere about this. Consensus seems to be that if you can control all other factors closely enough there isn’t any difference between them.

 

[bohem]

It was stated well above. The only thing I will say is, I have more confidence in my gunsmith dialing the barrel in to near zero runout and taking his time to do the job than I do the big prefit barrel factories that do everything with Cnc machines. The potential is there in both instances to go both directions though.

Most of us "smaller" shops making bespoke prefits are doing it to order and we're dialing in every barrel on the machines, CNC or not. My first CNC purchase was predicated on having a workholding solution to make sure that I could dial the barrel in at both ends. Some parts had to be custom made for the back end of the spindle, which I ended up making adaptations to and building for my subsequent CNC purchases as well, but the end result is that every single "prefit" that we do on our machines is 100% cut on a CNC and 100% of them are dialed in every time.


To the OP:

With regards to Bighorn/Zermatt action products. The receivers are closer in tolerance than the vast majority of gunsmiths using manual equipment will be able to discern apart. Half a thousandth in headspace isn't the issue at hand, it's the work that goes into the blank at the barrel making shop and the process control that went into the gunsmithing work, whether that was done on a manual machine the "traditional way" or done on a CNC.

What I will say, in defense of my use of CNC's for this work:

I've been cutting chambers and muzzles on CNC's exclusively for a little over 5 years and by my records, about 7100 chambers. In that time we've kept records on several critical factors in the chambering process and the concept that CNC lathes are substantially more rigid and repeatable as compared to the manual methods is hard fact. There's no doubt that the tighter repeatability and shape comes from a well setup, well programmed turning center. Yes, a good machinist can repeat sizes to half a thou or a little better on a manual lathe but tell the guy he needs to do that on every part all day long, every day.

What is clear though is that a CNC lathe, when properly setup, will cut barrel after barrel with repeatability numbers that will make a manual machinist pull their hair out. Case in point, I cut (4) 6mm BR-A's this morning. Two of them went to a close friend who asked me "is it possible to hold 2 headspaces within a thousandth or so because I want to put the same load in both barrels if possible." His two barrels ended up 0.0004" apart with no special work from me and all 4 of them fell within 1/2 a thousandth. The body tapers were all within spec and the same to the repeatability of a micron indicator on a ball.

In June we delivered a run of 40 barrels for a rifle company. Upon inspection they found that all 40 of them, in 2 different calibers, had a total headspace span of 0.0008" and every single PD measured within 7 tenths and cleanly cleared the Class 3 gauges for GO and NOGO. They spun into place, clocked the caliber markings correctly and the company assembled the rifles without any fitment issues. It took me 4 working days to take them from unturned blanks into finished parts with thread protectors, spun, lasered, and crated up for pickup.

CNC's in a small shop typically mean better quality work, not worse... though there are exceptions to every rule.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Most of us "smaller" shops making bespoke prefits are doing it to order and we're dialing in every barrel on the machines, CNC or not. My first CNC purchase was predicated on having a workholding solution to make sure that I could dial the barrel in at both ends. Some parts had to be custom made for the back end of the spindle, which I ended up making adaptations to and building for my subsequent CNC purchases as well, but the end result is that every single "prefit" that we do on our machines is 100% cut on a CNC and 100% of them are dialed in every time.


To the OP:

With regards to Bighorn/Zermatt action products. The receivers are closer in tolerance than the vast majority of gunsmiths using manual equipment will be able to discern apart. Half a thousandth in headspace isn't the issue at hand, it's the work that goes into the blank at the barrel making shop and the process control that went into the gunsmithing work, whether that was done on a manual machine the "traditional way" or done on a CNC.

What I will say, in defense of my use of CNC's for this work:

I've been cutting chambers and muzzles on CNC's exclusively for a little over 5 years and by my records, about 7100 chambers. In that time we've kept records on several critical factors in the chambering process and the concept that CNC lathes are substantially more rigid and repeatable as compared to the manual methods is hard fact. There's no doubt that the tighter repeatability and shape comes from a well setup, well programmed turning center. Yes, a good machinist can repeat sizes to half a thou or a little better on a manual lathe but tell the guy he needs to do that on every part all day long, every day.

What is clear though is that a CNC lathe, when properly setup, will cut barrel after barrel with repeatability numbers that will make a manual machinist pull their hair out. Case in point, I cut (4) 6mm BR-A's this morning. Two of them went to a close friend who asked me "is it possible to hold 2 headspaces within a thousandth or so because I want to put the same load in both barrels if possible." His two barrels ended up 0.0004" apart with no special work from me and all 4 of them fell within 1/2 a thousandth. The body tapers were all within spec and the same to the repeatability of a micron indicator on a ball.

In June we delivered a run of 40 barrels for a rifle company. Upon inspection they found that all 40 of them, in 2 different calibers, had a total headspace span of 0.0008" and every single PD measured within 7 tenths and cleanly cleared the Class 3 gauges for GO and NOGO. They spun into place, clocked the caliber markings correctly and the company assembled the rifles without any fitment issues. It took me 4 working days to take them from unturned blanks into finished parts with thread protectors, spun, lasered, and crated up for pickup.

CNC's in a small shop typically mean better quality work, not worse... though there are exceptions to every rule.

I apologize, as I don't think I communicated effectively. What I should have said, is that it appears to me, that how well the barrel is dialed in makes the difference in how barrels shoot. If they are being dialed in one at a time to the same tolerances as a guy using a manual machine, a Cnc probably does do a better job. I am not a gunsmith, nor am I a machinist, I am purely speculating. I don't know for certain, but I would imagine the big prefit shops like Criterion are using some sort of work holding fixture and not dialing in every barrel. If they are, in fact, taking the time to dial in every barrel, they are doing it for a hell of a price.

I honestly wondered how the crazy good work coming out of your shop was happening so fast and at the rates you do it for. I am surprised to learn that you are dialing in every barrel. You must have a very efficient process and setup for doing so. Some smiths seem to struggle with dialing in barrels and they only get through a barrel or 2 a day. Their work is very good, but they are not fast. Obviously you have a very good process for cutting barrels, as I have heard very, very few issues with your barrels compared to the many reports of amazing accuracy. I also respect that you seem to take care of any qc issues with class. Honestly, the only complaint I have heard about you is timeline, which seems to be rectified. It also speaks volumes to your qc/qa values when you refused to sacrifice quality to increase volume when everyone was crying about the wait.

 

[bohem]

I apologize, as I don't think I communicated effectively. What I should have said, is that it appears to me, that how well the barrel is dialed in makes the difference in how barrels shoot. If they are being dialed in one at a time to the same tolerances as a guy using a manual machine, a Cnc probably does do a better job. I am not a gunsmith, nor am I a machinist, I am purely speculating. I don't know for certain, but I would imagine the big prefit shops like Criterion are using some sort of work holding fixture and not dialing in every barrel. If they are, in fact, taking the time to dial in every barrel, they are doing it for a hell of a price.

I honestly wondered how the crazy good work coming out of your shop was happening so fast and at the rates you do it for. I am surprised to learn that you are dialing in every barrel. You must have a very efficient process and setup for doing so. Some smiths seem to struggle with dialing in barrels and they only get through a barrel or 2 a day. Their work is very good, but they are not fast. Obviously you have a very good process for cutting barrels, as I have heard very, very few issues with your barrels compared to the many reports of amazing accuracy. I also respect that you seem to take care of any qc issues with class. Honestly, the only complaint I have heard about you is timeline, which seems to be rectified. It also speaks volumes to your qc/qa values when you refused to sacrifice quality to increase volume when everyone was crying about the wait.

I understand better now, thanks for clarifying that. Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate that as well.

I can't speak to Criterion's process but credit where credit is due, they make a good finished product at a very competitive price. I've been trying to develop a process that still includes dialing in a barrel where we can match their prices and I'm not quite sure how to do it yet, certainly not in a custom, cut to order process.

 

[Rob01]

And that post above is why I am having Josh do the prefits for my TL3 action. Having known him a for a while I know he is a perfectionist and that is what I like in a smith.

 

[Steel head]

I understand better now, thanks for clarifying that. Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate that as well.

I can't speak to Criterion's process but credit where credit is due, they make a good finished product at a very competitive price. I've been trying to develop a process that still includes dialing in a barrel where we can match their prices and I'm not quite sure how to do it yet, certainly not in a custom, cut to order process.

All the criterion and Shilen prefits I’ve had experience with didn’t have nearly as nice of machining or attention to detail that my Smith made prefits do.
But they shoot great, especially for the price.
Rough and slightly off axis chambers are not rare with them.

 

[bohem]

All the criterion and Shilen prefits I’ve had experience with didn’t have nearly as nice of machining or attention to detail that my Smith made prefits do.
But they shoot great, especially for the price.
Rough and slightly off axis chambers are not rare with them.

That would lead me to believe that they don't dial the barrels in but since I don't know that for sure I don't want to start a rumor that they're not doing or that they are doing something. Like I said, they make a good product at a very good price. I feel that our product is superior due both to the quality of blank that I'm starting with as well as the work going into it and that is reflected in our price point. It's about 20-25% higher all features being identical. However, I'm also aware that our reputation is for 1 hole prefits as opposed to 1/2-5/8MOA barrels. I would have a hard time hanging my hat on a process that is known to consistently produce a 1/2MOA "best case"

 

[Ledzep]

At LRI (circa 2014-2016 anyway) they were only dialing in 1 location on the breech side when cutting the chamber. The other end was held by the OD in a collet spacer inside the spindle bore that had a hookup for pressurized thru-flow coolant.

Testing the method one day showed up to a thou of indicated ID runout at the breech (indicated true about 1.5" inside the bore). However even with rigid tool holding the finished chambers had no dimensional or runout issues and most folks are happy with how they shoot. I maintain you gotta mess it up pretty bad to make a good barrel not shoot. Barrels I've had that didn't shoot great never shot great no matter if I cleaned up the chamber or re cut the muzzle, etc.

 

[UpSideDown]

Some smiths seem to struggle with dialing in barrels and they only get through a barrel or 2 a day.

That isn't because it takes so long to dial in a barrel. That is the deficit of manual machining. The dialing process is the same or very similar on manual and CNC machines. The machining process is 100% controlled on CNC, whereas a human is involved in manual machines. Both can be excellent. CNC's are more rigid, more efficient, and as controlled of an environment as you can have. You can still cut very tight tolerances on many manual machines and I wouldn't hold anything against running a barrel on a manual. But CNC's are always more repeatable and faster and capable of better finishes with instant transitions, interpolation, flood coolant, and constant surface speed cutting. CNC's have the capacity to do better than manuals. If that improvement is necessary is a second point of discussion.

 

[Steel head]

That would lead me to believe that they don't dial the barrels in but since I don't know that for sure I don't want to start a rumor that they're not doing or that they are doing something. Like I said, they make a good product at a very good price. I feel that our product is superior due both to the quality of blank that I'm starting with as well as the work going into it and that is reflected in our price point. It's about 20-25% higher all features being identical. However, I'm also aware that our reputation is for 1 hole prefits as opposed to 1/2-5/8MOA barrels. I would have a hard time hanging my hat on a process that is known to consistently produce a 1/2MOA "best case"

They are a nice point between a factory barrel and a full custom.
I’ve dialed in a few things on a lathe and it’s almost always like that first 90% is easy and fast and that last bit to get perfection is tedious and slow.
Then added care during cutting the chamber and muzzle, tenon and tool/reamer replacement/maintenance.
So if you just go for the 90% and a bit less fuss on the other steps you save on time and cost and still get a good product.
Factory barrels show how much you can get away with and still shoot decently.

Getting a big hole barrel is more of a luxury than a necessity to 95% of shooters anyways.

 

[bohem]

At LRI (circa 2014-2016 anyway) they were only dialing in 1 location on the breech side when cutting the chamber. The other end was held by the OD in a collet spacer inside the spindle bore that had a hookup for pressurized thru-flow coolant.

Testing the method one day showed up to a thou of indicated ID runout at the breech (indicated true about 1.5" inside the bore). However even with rigid tool holding the finished chambers had no dimensional or runout issues and most folks are happy with how they shoot. I maintain you gotta mess it up pretty bad to make a good barrel not shoot. Barrels I've had that didn't shoot great never shot great no matter if I cleaned up the chamber or re cut the muzzle, etc.

Sure, I completely believe it. There is a lot of lap runout that comes at each end of the barrel. We cut off the muzzle to get rid of bell mouth like everyone else does, that bell mouth at the breech is taken out by the chamber except on rimfires.... those little buggers need some special attention.

That bell mouth is why I don't use range rods and barely ever did. I made a couple barrels with them and noticed that if I got it running dead balls and then took the rod out and put it back in I was never within a thousandth TIR... so what was I really accomplishing by using a rod. I went to direct indicating off a bore with long wand indicators and the process control got better.

They are a nice point between a factory barrel and a full custom.
I’ve dialed in a few things on a lathe and it’s almost always like that first 90% is easy and fast and that last bit to get perfection is tedious and slow.
Then added care during cutting the chamber and muzzle, tenon and tool/reamer replacement/maintenance.
So if you just go for the 90% and a bit less fuss on the other steps you save on time and cost and still get a good product.
Factory barrels show how much you can get away with and still shoot decently.

Getting a big hole barrel is more of a luxury than a necessity to 95% of shooters anyways.

Sure, and that's why I say they make a good product. We're going another step and it takes more time and effort. Costs are higher, end result is a regularly tighter group that comes with a comparatively higher price tag. We're not a cheap as a more bulk processed method but we're typically a lot less expensive compared to other smaller shop operators. People have different ways of doing things, the end result and the customer satisfaction is what I'm trying to accomplish. We charge what we need to in order to maintain a profitability level to stay in business and make a living. That results in different costs for different folks. I've not changed our pricing structure for several years though in 2021 we're going to have to edge up prices a little bit. Overhead has gone up in the cost of materials, rent, etc. I still think we will be quite competitive in the overall industry.

 

[Ledzep]

As far as time goes, starting fresh with a 4-jaw chuck and 4-jaw spider on the Hardinge manual lathe I can indicate a barrel in 5-15 minutes (depending on how nice it is to me). I do this to feed my own hobby, not professionally, but I'd say I average 2-3 hours per barrel between thread/chamber, then crown & muzzle thread. I'm sure there's time that could be shaved off if I did it day in and day out. That's how long it takes me on every barrel, regardless of what the numbers are. For guys doing CNC work where everything is basically cut with the same program (6.5 Creedmoor TL3 or RPR prefits, for example), I bet they can stomp my ass in production. 1-2 barrels an hour wouldn't surprise me.

For Remington 700's, where tennon, counterbore, pitch dia. etc.. all vary it might not be such a stark difference, though.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

One huge advantage to something like a Proof or whatever other prefit you just order is if somehow it doesn't shoot, it's their problem.

If you supply the barrel or even spec the barrel and then have the work done and it doesn't shoot it turns into a blame game between barrel maker and the gunsmith. I've been down that road a couple times.

If Proof offers a prefit in the flavor you want or even close that's the route I would go. Their barrels are awesome.

 

[UIUCPPQ]

Thank you to all who have chimed in on this, there has been a lot of eye opening information shared here, I have gone with a pre-fit Criterion this time for simplicity and lead time reduction (and cost). We will see how it turns out!

@bohem Just from reading in this thread, I think my next barrel may have to come from you.

 

[bohem]

One huge advantage to something like a Proof or whatever other prefit you just order is if somehow it doesn't shoot, it's their problem.

If you supply the barrel or even spec the barrel and then have the work done and it doesn't shoot it turns into a blame game between barrel maker and the gunsmith. I've been down that road a couple times.

If Proof offers a prefit in the flavor you want or even close that's the route I would go. Their barrels are awesome.

This is a good point. That's why we take the same approach, to ease the burden on the customer if something does go wrong.

For a barrel blank that we supply as part of a turn key prefit we accept the chance of a problem and warranty it. If there's an issue we deal with our barrel supplier on that barrel and make the customer a new barrel if needed, we cover the labor and the blank. When someone sends us a blank that we cut the work is always warrantied but the responsibility of the blank is not ours. This is why we use the suppliers that we do, because the hassle of fighting over a barrel blank isn't worth my time. I have a good understanding with RCB and they know our work. If I call and tell Russ the pipe is bad he just sends another on my next crate, it isn't worth either of our time to fight back and forth while keeping the customer in limbo for a month or more.

That's not to say that every complaint or raised issue requires a new barrel though many would like to suggest as much. On the few we get back there are oftentimes other factors involved beyond the barrel and once remedied the barrel shoots as expected.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

@bohem and that’s exactly why you’re one of the very few places I’d order a prefit from.

 

[phatforrest]

Can't wait to get my rifle back from PVA to see what kind of barrel magic Josh and crew have done to it!