Press-mounted case trimmers - Dillon RT1500 vs Honey Badger vs Titan trimmer vs. Brass Muncher

[memilanuk]

For those of you with experience using these sorts of critters, what's your pick, and why?

I'm looking for something to trim cases for primarily .223 Rem and .308 Win, not looking to make .300 Black Out cases at this point. Already have a Giraud, looking for something a little faster and not a separate step, but a nice clean square (to the axis) cut would be preferred.

If you had to buy new, today, what would you go with?

 

[rjacobs]

For what you are looking to do, IMO, all but the RT1500 are way overkill, and even that is overkill as it was a redesign from the RT1200 to deal with 300blk cutting.

The rest are all designed for 300blk conversion.

BUT if you wanted my opinion on any of the other 3, I believe I would choose the Honey Badger as the guy that designed it, I believe, was the first to adapt a router to trim brass over on 300blktalk.

 

[padom]

I have the RT1500 and feel it was the best upgrade I ever bought. I decap, size and trim lightning fast and dead accurate as fast as you can pull the handle on my 650. I trimmer 223, 300blk and 6.5cm

 

[memilanuk]

'decapitated'... really?

Just funnin' ya

On a more serious note, for those of you with the non-HB trimmers, how big of a deal is the alignment/adjustment feature that makes the HB 'special'? I know from my Giraud if I insert a case until it stops cutting, then give it a half turn it will cut some more - so I'm guessing its probably about that much difference that it's cutting off? Do you even notice when trimming with the RT1200/1500 that the mouths aren't perfectly square?

 

[padom]

'decapitated'... really?

Just funnin' ya

On a more serious note, for those of you with the non-HB trimmers, how big of a deal is the alignment/adjustment feature that makes the HB 'special'? I know from my Giraud if I insert a case until it stops cutting, then give it a half turn it will cut some more - so I'm guessing its probably about that much difference that it's cutting off? Do you even notice when trimming with the RT1200/1500 that the mouths aren't perfectly square?

Android auto correct is smarter than humans you didnt know?

Mine cute nice and square and very accurate every time.

 

[memilanuk]

For what you are looking to do, IMO, all but the RT1500 are way overkill

I don't disagree... kinda wish there was a mini Honey Badger, sized more for a Bosch Colt trim router or something similar. I mentioned it to the HB guy... don't think it's even on his radar, which seems to be focused on *production*.

Then again... one could argue that anything beyond a single stage press and a Wilson trimmer is 'way overkill' as well

 

[Rover31]

If folks could weigh in on press toolhead set up that would be great to see also.
Ie, what is in what station.
I am thinking of two tool heads per caliber. Tumble then, #1 for sizing trimming, tumble, #2 for priming, powder, seating, crimp if needed/wanted.
What say you experienced progressive users?
Thanks

 

[rjacobs]

@Rover31 Are you running a 650?

Dillon trim dies are full length size dies, but have tight necks. They need to be opened up after sizing/trimming. In a NORMAL size die you have the expander ball pulled back through, but not in a trim die.

I run the expander mandrels from 21st century after my trim dies. They will fit on a 650 with an RT1500 in station 4, you just have to be willing to make your vacuum attachment fit...

My 650 prep dies(223 and 300blk) are setup: universal de-prime, empty, empty, size/trim, 21st century expander mandrel.

 

[padom]

I'm running 2 toolheads. Brass prep toolhead consists of universal decaper in station #1, trim/size in station #4 and 21st century mandrel in #5.

Here she is in action depriming, sizing and trimming 6.5cm. It doesnt get any faster than this..

 

[pmclaine]

I run RT1200 on a Dillon S1050.

Case prep on the first run is simple and fast.

I 80 percent size with an expander ball in station 1.

The Rapid Trim is currently set up to full length resize in hole 5 and I run a 21st Century turning mandrel in spot 6 to set proper neck tension and open up what the trim die makes too tight.

I have one rifle that seems to be having an issue with the "mag well" style cutting of the Dillon dies. Dillon opens their dies slightly at the mouth to facilitate progressive loading. One rifle with a sweet match chamber needs to have the case head a bit tighter.

I dont want to run small base dies but I am considering making my trim die size to about 95% than run a Redding full length without any expander to final size than follow up with the 21st Century mandrel.

The RT trims square and consistent if you sort your brass. Cuts are clean and the brass curls are vacuumed away clean.

I do chamfer and debur after which is the absolute worst part of case prep by far.

 

[Rover31]

@rjacobs yes I am dialing up a 650 I purchased used recently.
Coming from a 550 and others.
Thanks for the other replies guys and thanks @milanuk for letting me thread jack...

 

[memilanuk]

I'm planning on trying it out on my 550... assuming there is enough room for everything. If not I'll cruise on over to @Rover31 and use his ?

 

[memilanuk]

@padom @pmclaine Question for you on the die you chose for station #1...

I've seen some people say that having a normal F/L sizing die in station #1, either screwed in all the way, or at least most of the way, to decap and also round out any dented case mouths *before* they enter the trim die, is the way to go. Given that I've seen cases dented coming out of the gun, from hitting barricades next to the gun, etc. I can definitely see the point...

I've seen others say to just use a decapping die in station #1, as having the brass already fully sized before going into the Dillon trim die will cause it to not 'grip' tight enough and end up spinning inside the die when the cutter bit hits the case mouth. Apparently that is a Bad Thing, with only lanolin/wax for lube...

Since it looks like we have one from each camp here, I'd be interested in your thoughts/opinions on this. Are these things you specifically considered when choosing your current setup?

 

[pmclaine]

On my brass prep tool head I run a standard Dillon FL die in station 1 backed out slightly just to start sizing the case but more importantly to fix any case neck damage.

Currently my trim die final sizes (0 SAAMI). It grips tight because it oversizes the necks.

If/when I add a die after to work the case head I will have to monitor what I do.

A .001-.003 or so above SAAMI I dont see the RT having an issue spinning brass. Ill use the Redding die to final size.

Note I only have that size issue with one rifle in 30-06. .223/.308 I use the RT to final size than open the necks with a 21st Century mandrel.

On my loading tool head I use a universal decap die to knock media out of the primer hole.

 

[layback04]

Are any of you running these on the hornady lnl ap ?

 

[SpeedyR]

do any of the cutters chamfer the mouths or are you doing this in a separate stage? or just not do it?

I"m doing most of my case prep off machine but looking to "automate" as much as I can.

right now, I'm sizing and removing primers on my single stage, tumble to remove lube, then on a FA prep machine I trim to length, chamfer and deburr the mouth, and cut/swage crimp if needed, and then tumble again (SS pins) and they are ready to load.

I tend to prep a lot of brass and then store it till I need to load things again.

 

[Rover31]

Nope these are straight trimmers, no chamfer is available with any that I have seen.

 

[SpeedyR]

Giraud and the Trim It II seem to have chamfer built in. I've seen Giraud but trying to avoid the $500 trimmer. Gracey also makes one, it's in the $350 range.

 

[weazer]

Quick question, but I see some use the 21st Century Turning mandrel and some use the expander mandrel, do I need to order both for .223 and see which one sets the neck tension correctly? Or is there a way of knowing up front, I'd rather just buy one, but they are only $18.

I'm going to be using Dillon dies and a RT1500

 

[memilanuk]

I don't know about the 21st Century ones, but the Sinclair mandrels are different sizes: - 0.001 for the sizing/expander mandrel, and - 0.002 for the turning mandrel. Between the two, and how much the sizing die squeezes the neck, and whether you are annealing... allows you some degree of control over the neck tension.

 

[padom]

Turning mandrel always gives .002 neck tension, expander gives .001 neck tension. I have both in 6.5, .223 and .308

 

[memilanuk]

Not quite 'always'... K&M is a little bit different in that their expander mandrel for say .308 pretty much mikes at... .308".

I was confused for a long time about all the people saying they were using their turning mandrel for expanding case necks as a routine part of loading, when I was having to *resize* my necks after turning to get any decent amount of neck tension.

Then I discovered that most other companies did it slightly differently than K&M... and I also found that K&M offers neck expander mandrels in custom sizes (half thou increments) now, along with pin gages for use as GO/NO-GO gauges for your neck sizing operations, if you get that far down in the weeds. It is pretty awesome to be able to check my match FTR brass for 3 thou neck tension with a .305- pin and a .3055 pin and know that its as good as I can make it

Probably not going to looking for that level of 'precision' out of cases trimmed en masse with a press-mounted trimmer, though. If it happens to work out that way , though, I certainly wouldn't complain

 

[padom]

I'm only referring to the mandrels I use, 21st Century TiN

 

[Jammer Six]

Okay, let's play stupid questions. I'll be the idiot.

When you guys say ".002 neck tension", what does that mean? .002 from what to what?

 

[Strykervet]

Okay, let's play stupid questions. I'll be the idiot.

When you guys say ".002 neck tension", what does that mean? .002 from what to what?

It's how much the neck gets sized such when a bullet is seated the neck will be .002 over a sized and non-seated one.

I can't say much about the other trimmers, but the Dillon 1500 just kicks ass. I have two of 'em, one on the 650 and another dedicated to .50 BMG, so I have a bit different insight regarding 'em. When you're sizing and loading a thousand, ten thousand pieces, it's not just nice to have, it's damn near required. With the Dillon, some of the trim dies are also sizing dies, so if you run an expander after, no need for a sizing die (padom brought this to my attention, but I still use the Forster sizing dies since I have 'em). For decapping and sizing stages, it just flies, as fast as you can operate it smoothly. Loading isn't as fast just because powder tends to get shaken from the brass if you're hauling ass and the cases are full. But it's still faster than any other method.

I use two toolheads too, but I have a third with only a universal decapper. I decap, clean, size, clean again, load.

They're well made, basically Foredom high speed motors with a cutting tool that has three faces so when one wears out, just rotate it 120deg. It ain't no cheap Dremel motor, that's for sure. It's heavy as hell too, kinda gotta be careful swapping it between toolheads. It's pretty easy to setup too. The trimmer is also damn near silent! The vacuum is the all the noise. I've forgotten and left it running a couple times. It's pretty light work for those motors I reckon because it never gets hot either. I don't know how you could improve on it.

I couldn't go back to doing it the old fashioned way. Not now.

The 1500 isn't exactly supposed to be used for MAKING .300BLK, it'll wear it out much faster and this is from Dillon, but it can be used for that if you want I guess. I mean it'll do it, it's just a lot of material to cut that way. They still recommend chopping it and going from there (so I just get new .300 brass instead).

The other nice thing about it is that ALL brass gets sized and trimmed the same. If it needs trimming, it gets it and if it doesn't it just passes through. The .50 is the one that gets used the most though, I haven't seen a BMG case yet that didn't need some form of trimming to bring it back to spec. And if it's tough enough to go through thousands (so far) and have zero issues with BMG, I doubt the one on the 650 is gonna suffer. Even on the worst BMG cases it doesn't slow down, it zips right through 'em. And it works as a fast as you can operate that lever, I've never had to wait on the trimmer.

 

[Jammer Six]

It's how much the neck gets sized such when a bullet is seated the neck will be .002 over a sized and non-seated one.

I see, thanks.

So it could be measured either on the exterior neck diameter or the interior neck diameter, right? It's the change in the neck diameter when a bullet gets shoved into it that we're measuring, right?

And thanks again!

 

[padom]

I see, thanks.

So it could be measured either on the exterior neck diameter or the interior neck diameter, right? It's the change in the neck diameter when a bullet gets shoved into it that we're measuring, right?

And thanks again!

.002 tension means the neck is sized .002 under your loaded neck diameter. Measure the neck OD of a loaded round. The neck OD after sizing but before loading will be .002 less than that.

 

[Jammer Six]

Thank you!

I've loaded pistol for twenty years. I'm made the jump to loading for a bolt gun about two years ago, and just started loading for an AR.

Things are different from my simple little Square Deal!

 

[Jammer Six]

Here she is in action depriming, sizing and trimming 6.5cm. It doesnt get any faster than this..

Your video convinced me.

Christmas came early, and She Who Rules gave consent; I just ordered a 650 with a casefeeder and a case trimmer. I have extra tooheads ordered. I want to process brass the same way you do in the video.

So do you do anything to it before you run it through this? Or do you run nasty, fired brass through this prior to cleaning?

I want to clean with no primer. I wet tumble in a Thumbler's, and it gets nice and clean but I like to do it after the primers are gone.

What do you do?

P.S. After watching your video, you're my hero.

 

[pmclaine]

Im set up like Padom for the most part.

I clean before anything goes on the press. Clean brass (lubed) goes through the trimmer.

Than I chamfer/deburr/let the Hornady multi tool grind some carbon out of the primer pockets.

Than everything goes back in to the corn cob for a short vibration bath to remove the lube.

At that point Im ready to load.

So I get a mechanical primer pocket cleaning and a short corn cob cleaning of those pockets.

First station on my loading tool head is a universal decapper to punch out any corn cob stuck in the flash hole.

 

[Jammer Six]

So there are two cleaning cycles. That makes sense to me; I wouldn't want brass in my dies that hadn't been cleaned and lubed.

I could switch that around, I suppose, and make the second cleaning cycle the long one. So, short cleaning cycle to get the worst of it off, lube, punch, size & trim, main cleaning cycle, inspection, load.

The only downside is that I've added a cleaning cycle. Worse things have happened.

 

[memilanuk]

Not sure why you wouldn't make the initial cleaning cycle the long one - personally I want my brass pretty dang clean before I go putting it through the pressure/friction of the sizing die. After that all I'm doing is 20-30 minutes to get the lube off, and any loose swarf from the trimming process.

For me it's not a big deal... I got an outlet timer so I just punch up the desired time and let it go til its done. I *always* have other stuff that 'needs' done in the reloading/gun room. It's not like I'm adding another 'touch' cycle to where I have to handle each individual case again; I've been down that route - I'm pretty much over it for anything outside of maybe a national level F-class event - and that brass isn't getting trimmed on the press (yet).

 

[Jammer Six]

Not sure why you wouldn't make the initial cleaning cycle the long one -

Because I want the primer pocket cleaned. I use wet tumbling in a Thumbler's, and if the primer has been punched, a Thumbler's will get the pocket clean.

 

[padom]

Because I want the primer pocket cleaned. I use wet tumbling in a Thumbler's, and if the primer has been punched, a Thumbler's will get the pocket clean.

You may want it clean, but it does nothing for you downrange. I've tested heavily. I gave up the SS tumbling fad a while ago. Had a Thumlers and a Rebel. Gave the Thumlers away in the spring and the Rebel collects dust.

I dry tumble for an hr to remove any dirt then process then dry tumble to remove lube.

 

[memilanuk]

Same here. I went thru the ultra-sonic cleaning phase, from a cheap HF unit to a not-so-cheap Branson commercial unit. Still have both kicking around somewhere downstairs, just in case they might be useful someday

Then I went thru the alt tumbling methods with rice (never again), wet tumbling with ceramic media (even worse), and the early stages of wet tumbling with SS pins. Went thru all the pains of finding out what a PITA having the wrong size (length) pins can be, and how the number of cases and how long to tumble can vary considerably on what caliber you're working with (.223 Rem vs. .338LM). Finally had everything pretty well sorted out - Thumler's tumbler, cheap food dehydrator, etc.

My brass was very clean, inside and out, primer pockets and all. I was trimming every single firing anyway, to take care of any peening to the case mouths, and ended up having to run a bore mop with Imperial neck sizing lube (dry graphite) in every neck to get halfways decent seating forces.

This was all for my 'serious' guns - F/TR on a national/international level. Somewhere along the line I noticed that the *much* simpler regime of dry tumble in corn cob, anneal, size, tumble, then whatever other brass prep... was netting similar results, with a whole hell of a lot less screwing around.

I probably should put my cheap HF US cleaner up on the local CL ads, and my Branson on eBay. Same for my Thumler's Tumbler. I really don't see them getting any use any more, at least not by me.

TL;DR: clean primer pockets only affects the headspace between your ears.