Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Jackalope33B

Jackalope33B

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 5, 2010
1,457
0
Sunny Florida
#1
Here is the data:
Hodgdon Varget 43gr, 43.5gr, 44gr, 44.5gr.
Sierra MK BTHP 168gr
Lapua Brass
Federal Match Primers

Hodgdon website calls for starting load of Varget with 168gr Sierra MK BTHP at 42gr, and MAX at 46.

As you can see in the picture, the primers appear to be flattened. Never had this happen before. But I did notice the rifle was kicking alot more with these loads than it was with Hodgdon H4895. Also, I noticed that at 200 yards my rounds were 3"-4" to the left of the target with the elevation dead on.. Other times I couldnt even hit the 3" circle at 200 yards. But at 100 yards everything was OK. I even cleaned the barrel to see if it was fouling up.
I know your supposed to play with different powders to see what your rifle likes, but I may end up going back to the H4895 seeing as I had NO issues like I am right now.
Im baffled here.

I can take more pics if needed.

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1325363709391.jpg





 
#4
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Where are you seeing ejector marks? Im new to this, and not sure what you are talking about, or where to look.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i would be less concerned about the flattened primers as i would be about the ejector marks on the case heads. you are way over pressure </div></div>
 
#5
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Theses are loads from 43, 43.5, and 44.. I didnt shoot the 44.5gr.. The bullet was Sierra MK HPBT 168gr.. OAL is 2.798-2.805..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So are you saying these signs are from 43gr loads with the 168 or from 44.5 ?

Also, what is your OAL? </div></div>
 
#10
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Ok, gotcha! How can the Hodgdan data be so far off? I only 1gr above their STARTING load.. Im guessing go 3gr under and work from there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the round marks on the case heads </div></div>
 
#11
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Ejector marks like that usually mean that you are close to if not over max with that load. May be OAL needs adjusting. Also, what Match primers? 210 M or 215 M? The 215's may be a little hot for that charge. Drop back a grain or so if using the Magnum Match.
 
#12
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

When you drag the pad of your finger over the primer is it sharp to the touch ? Also, did you get a hard bolt lift ? it would be very unusual to have pressure signs at anywhere near 43gr on the 168 seated to 2.8". what rifle is this from ?
 
#13
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

many variables can cause high pressure. case volume, primers, seating depth,your scale can be off, your chamber can be tight or loose. the hodgdon manual is correct for the rifle they used. that is why it is called a reloading GUIDE. my personal load for a 308 is a cci br2 primer 43.5 gr of varget with the 168 gr matchking. i seat these .002 off the lands.
 
#15
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

The primers aren't all flattened and the ones that are really aren't flattened that bad. The ejector marks could be an issue. I'm betting this is a late model Remmy 700?
 
#16
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Just my .02, but you have to remember that lighting can play tricks with those ejector marks. I see a couple that don't look good though. What kind of measurement system are you using for powder? Tons of things can go awry, keep an open mind and eliminate as many variables as possible.

-Travis
 
#18
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I don't see any flattened primers, your not even getting any cratering / primer flow. The ejector swipe on a couple of cases might indicate some internal case volume loss due to thicker brass causing your pressure to spike a little. I don't see anything alarming though.
 
#19
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I was having the same issue with a 243. When i was fl sizing i was getting to much head space. I adjusted my die out just a tad and the flatting went away. Another thing when you seat the bullet is the seating pressure all the same. Or dose some seat a lot easier then others.
 
#20
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Im using the Federal 210M primers. Im using the basic Lee brass trimmer. So I cant really adjust the length that Im cutting the brass back too..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ejector marks like that usually mean that you are close to if not over max with that load. May be OAL needs adjusting. Also, what Match primers? 210 M or 215 M? The 215's may be a little hot for that charge. Drop back a grain or so if using the Magnum Match. </div></div>
 
#21
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

There was no sharp edge. When I did take the primers out of the case, instead of the primer being a round shape, they did have a "lip" on the back side of them. The bolt lift was not hard to eject a round..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you drag the pad of your finger over the primer is it sharp to the touch ? Also, did you get a hard bolt lift ? it would be very unusual to have pressure signs at anywhere near 43gr on the 168 seated to 2.8". what rifle is this from ? </div></div>
 
#22
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Some of you guys are seeing flat primers, others are not. Some are seeing ejector marks, others are not. We all have opinions on what the issue could be. I think Im going to start my load at 40gr, and work up from there. Is it safe to continue using this brass, or should it be tossed and start over with a fresh batch?

Another question that I had asked in the original post. With these HOT loads that were fired from the rifle, is there any possibilty I could have damaged anything or ruined the barrel? If so, what would I need to look for?
 
#23
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I don't see flat primers.
I think OAL was cartridge overall length, not trim length.
Is this new brass that had not been fired in your rifle before?
Rifle? Is it a stock R700 or custom?
You will get more pressure with Lapua brass as it has slightly less case volume.
I shoot 175 SMK with 44.7 gr Varget, Lapua brass and FGMM primer without issue in a GAP 308. I have seen no issues and the brass has 10 firings on it.
Does not mean your rifle will do it though.
As for "reading" primers, you can't always go by it as a sign of pressure. As example, many R700 rifles have large FP holes and primers will flow, thus making it appear you have extreme pressures when it's just a poorly machined part.
 
#24
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I would not trash the brass at all. Neck size it and replay your load work. Start at the bottom of the suggested data and move up about 2% at a time until you reach the max load. Don't go overboard. Load only around five for each powder charge. Then watch for signs of pressure as you go up. The best way to find high pressure is by measuring the case head. ALl the signs like ejector marks, primer flow, etc could just be a characteristic of the rifle.
As for damage to the gun, no one could assess it without looking at the rifle but I would doubt you have hurt anything.
 
#26
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

What's the standard for a case head so I know how much it expanded?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try measuring case heads to check for pressure. </div></div>
 
#27
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I have looked at those pictures several times and I don't see any problems with the primers. When you have pressure problems there is going to be a lot more problems then you are seeing in your brass. Do you have a case gauge? I always like to check mine out after I shoot them. With my Precision rifles the casing will drop right back into the gauge. I may have to use a little pressure to get them out but very little pressure. Of course that only works with the bolt guns.
 
#28
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

measure case heads before and after firing when they expand .001 dont go any higher. Reading primers to test for pressure is about as effective and scientific as doing a rain dance
 
#29
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Here are the some primers I took out from my brass. The BOTTOM 6 are the ones in question, and came from the cases I fired yesterday. The UPPER 5 are from cases I fired last week. You can deff tell there is a difference with the bottom 6.

22.jpg
 
#30
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

You're primers look ok, but primers don't mean a damn thing. Really more an indication of headspace than pressure.

Pictures 5 and 6 clearly show ejector marks. That indicates overpressure.

Your powder charges really ought not be causing pressure. Are you sure your scale is good?

Try cleaning your chamber, and ensuring it, as well as your brass is clean snd DRY.
 
#31
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no sharp edge. When I did take the primers out of the case, instead of the primer being a round shape, they did have a "lip" on the back side of them. The bolt lift was not hard to eject a round..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you drag the pad of your finger over the primer is it sharp to the touch ? Also, did you get a hard bolt lift ? it would be very unusual to have pressure signs at anywhere near 43gr on the 168 seated to 2.8". what rifle is this from ? </div></div> </div></div>

I don't think you have any pressure problems but i'd suggest you get a second opinion from a local reloader. The primers don't look flat to me and the loads you've suggested "typically" won't cause a problem but some hands-on experience will be able to quickly confirm or deny.
 
#32
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

You guys have any idea what would have caused the loss of accuracy? There were times at 100 yards I was dead on. Others I was shooting to the left 2-3".. At 200 yards, I couldnt hit a 3" circle. Rounds were everywhere lol
 
#33
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Before I shot the rifle, ran a patch through it to clear out any excess oil from cleaning it a few days prior.
Im using the RCBS charge master. I think its working fine. I calibrate it every time I use it, and after every 30 or so rounds during use. Never had an issue with the Chargemaster NOT working. The fan and AC is off, so there is no wind drift in the bedroom to cause the scale to get wacky..


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're primers look ok, but primers don't mean a damn thing. Really more an indication of headspace than pressure.

Pictures 5 and 6 clearly show ejector marks. That indicates overpressure.

Your powder charges really ought not be causing pressure. Are you sure your scale is good?

Try cleaning your chamber, and ensuring it, as well as your brass is clean snd DRY. </div></div>
 
#34
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I would double check the headspace and make sure the lube is cleaned off the brass. Make sure there is no media inside the case. I have two 308s that will shoot at least 45 grs of Varget in Win cases. My standard bolt action load is 44.8 with BR2 primers at 2700 fps. You bought the powder new and unopened?
 
#36
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys have any idea what would have caused the loss of accuracy? There were times at 100 yards I was dead on. Others I was shooting to the left 2-3".. At 200 yards, I couldnt hit a 3" circle. Rounds were everywhere lol </div></div>

Honestly could be anything from the quality of your loads, how well your kit has been put together and your own technique.
 
#38
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no sharp edge. When I did take the primers out of the case, instead of the primer being a round shape, they did have a "lip" on the back side of them. The bolt lift was not hard to eject a round..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you drag the pad of your finger over the primer is it sharp to the touch ? Also, did you get a hard bolt lift ? it would be very unusual to have pressure signs at anywhere near 43gr on the 168 seated to 2.8". what rifle is this from ? </div></div> </div></div>

I don't think you have any pressure problems but i'd suggest you get a second opinion from a local reloader. The primers don't look flat to me and the loads you've suggested "typically" won't cause a problem but some hands-on experience will be able to quickly confirm or deny. </div></div>

Nice - you just told a fellow getting ejector marks that his loads don't show overpressure.

Come on, if you don't know what you're looking at, please don't opine. Those marks are caused by the brass yielding, and literally FLOWING into the ejector hole in the bolt!

OP: Somehow, for whatever reason, you're overpressure. If you shot the "same" load before without the flat primers and ejector marks, I suggest yiu find out and correct ehat changed...lubed brass? Oily chamber? Scale on the fritz? Wrong bullets? Different cases? Something changed.
 
#39
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Turbo I have never shot this load before. This was the first time that I have used this particular powder. The brass was oil free, As well as the chamber of the rifle. The brass was shot once before using the same bullets as I did a few days ago.
 
#41
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Thanks, I appreciate it. Not sure if I'm going to start my load at 39 grains with Varget, Or just dump it all together and go back tothe H4895.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, what can I say? That charge ought not be overpressure, but it is-based on he ejector marks. Be careful. </div></div>
 
#42
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

This is an amazing thread. I have a hard time understanding how people can look at those photos and reach different conclusions?

First of all, you cannot just go with published data!

Second, what components were used in Hodgdons data? Probably wasn't Lapua brass.

Third, why are you changing from a load that wasn't causing problems and then can't recognize obvious pressure signs? It doesn't matter what the website says, your chamber, your barrel, your rifle and your cartridges are different....and that will always be true, no matter what rifle used.

Mixing brass is a pretty big booboo, they will usually have different internal capacity. Photo #5, right in the middle, you have an obvious ejector mark on the Lapua case just to the left of a FC case. The funny thing is, the primer isn't flattened, on that case, but you have plenty others the are flattened.

You need to seat primers to tell you if those cases are salvageable, the ones with ejector marks and the ones with flattened and cratered primers. It looks to me that your safe load is going to be about 43.5 grains if you stick with the Varget, but I see no reason to waste any more time. (based on your group size and the fact that they are not shooting to the same zero. Find another powder, and don't load so many without being sure of where your upper limits are.

Really, this situation has so many obvious clues, I'm surprised that you are puzzled and I can't believe there are so many people out there with such poor screen resolution.

Good luck, BB
 
#43
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

"Here is the data:
Hodgdon Varget 43gr, 43.5gr, 44gr, 44.5gr.
Sierra MK BTHP 168gr
Lapua Brass
Federal Match Primers"

Based on the above, I made an incorrect statement that I just noticed this morning. He admits a few posts down that he didn't fire 44.5gr and I missed that part. So, it is misleading to say; here is the data, blah blah blah and have everybody thinking he was testing FOUR progressively hotter loads when in actuality, he only tested TWO, (edit: or was it three?).

So, I was mistaken by a lot to say that his safe load was probably 43.5gr, when I thought the high pressure signs were coming from 44.0 and 44.5gr.

This is definitely not the way to work up a load when you can't even recognize pressure signs. Stop shooting at the first sign of high pressure, whether it's flattened primers, loose primer pockets, pierced primers, cratered primers, ejector marks, or measuring case head expansion. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE BOOK SAYS!

You cannot rely on published data, that's why you are testing your loads in your gun. You are loading WAY too many test rounds, unless you like to pull bullets.

Sorry for sounding so direct, but handloading is a serious business and you are not paying enough attention to detail. BB

edit: One other thing, you are not cleaning your barrel enough. I just read your first statement again. You should be cleaning your barrel between each different load. I do it after 5 rounds, but for sure after fifteen rounds, otherwise you are evaluating progressively hotter loads with a progressively more fouled barrel. Everything should be equal, as near as possible, which means, clean dry bore/test/clean dry bore/test/ clean dry bore/test....for as long as it takes. You say; "I even cleaned the barrel", well, you should have been doing that all along, in my opinion.
 
#44
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

No, I said I didnt fire 44.5gr "Theses are loads from 43, 43.5, and 44.. I didnt shoot the 44.5gr.. The bullet was Sierra MK HPBT 168gr.. OAL is 2.798-2.805.."

Im just going to start my loads at 40gr for this Varget, and work up from there. How many would you say is an acceptable amount of rounds to load of each, 5? 10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the data:
Hodgdon Varget 43gr, 43.5gr, 44gr, 44.5gr.
Sierra MK BTHP 168gr
Lapua Brass
Federal Match Primers

Based on the above, I made an incorrect statement that I just noticed this morning. He admits a few posts down that he didn't fire 44gr or 44.5gr and I missed that part. So, it is misleading to say; here is the data, blah blah blah and have everybody thinking he was testing FOUR progressively hotter loads when in actuality, he only tested TWO. (apparently?)

So, I was mistaken by a lot to say that his safe load was probably 43.5gr, when I thought the high pressure signs were coming from 44.0 and 44.5gr.

This is definitely not the way to work up a load when you can't even recognize pressure signs. Stop shooting at the first sign of high pressure, whether it's flattened primers, loose primer pockets, pierced primers, cratered primers, ejector marks, or measuring case head expansion. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE BOOK SAYS!

You cannot rely on published data, that's why you are testing your loads in your gun. You are loading WAY too many test rounds, unless you like to pull bullets.

Sorry for sounding so direct, but handloading is a serious business and you are not paying enough attention to detail. BB </div></div>
 
#45
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Yeah, I saw that. Sorry. But, your first statement; "here's the data" is confusing, to begin with. It looks like you shot four different loads and a little later, it turns out that you didn't.

Yes, 5 rounds is sufficient, in my opinion, stick with 100 yards, look for pressure and then, go out and look at group size, use different targets. If you test four loads, you need four targets. And, good luck. BB
 
#46
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

If your pressure is peaking too soon, judging by published data, Varget is too fast a powder for your capacity, in your gun, your barrel length. I would advise you to find a powder that gives you nearer 100% fill, and acceptable velocity and accuracy. There are a lot of choices. I own a 308 but never use it so I'm not up on the latest and greatest, but it wouldn't hurt to try H4831. That is a very dependable powder and it's unlikely you would go overpressure. Just off the top of my head, do your own research and look at powder burning rates. Again, good luck. BB
 
#47
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Any time you see brass flow into the extractor area you should be concerned. Any time you feel a definite increase in recoil you should take serious note. Both can indicate pressure.

The issue here is your load is too low to generate the 70,000+ psi required to cause brass flow so something is wrong.

1) Check your scale. It may be way off.
2) Check your muzzle velocity with a chronograph.
3) Check the bullet weight. Weigh a few. I have had mis-labled bullets before.
4) Triple check you have the right powder.

Primers are a poor indicator of pressure (I own pressure testing equipment), but those primers do look like low pressure.

So how can you have both high and low pressure indicators in the exact same case? Excessive headspace will do this.
If you over-size the case the firing pin drives the case forward until it stops at the shoulder then the pressure stretches and slams the case against the bolt face...Hard!

Please explain how you set up the sizing die.

Peace
 
#48
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

1) Check your scale. It may be way off. <span style="color: #FF0000">I use the weights to calibrate before and during my reloading session</span>
2) Check your muzzle velocity with a chronograph. <span style="color: #FF0000">DOnt have one. But may end up buying one</span>
3) Check the bullet weight. Weigh a few. I have had mis-labled bullets before.<span style="color: #FF0000"> I have done this. Only a tenth of a grain variation</span>
4) Triple check you have the right powder. <span style="color: #FF0000">It sure is Varget</span>

The sizing DIE is made by Redding. Im using it in a Forster CO-AX. I set it up according to the instructions. Raise the ram up, screw the DIE down until it touches the shell holder, set the Forster Lock Ring so the die cant be adjusted accidently, and make sure the De-Cap pic is 3/16" sticking out of the bottom of the DIE.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any time you see brass flow into the extractor area you should be concerned. Any time you feel a definite increase in recoil you should take serious note. Both can indicate pressure.

The issue here is your load is too low to generate the 70,000+ psi required to cause brass flow so something is wrong.

1) Check your scale. It may be way off.
2) Check your muzzle velocity with a chronograph.
3) Check the bullet weight. Weigh a few. I have had mis-labled bullets before.
4) Triple check you have the right powder.

Primers are a poor indicator of pressure (I own pressure testing equipment), but those primers do look like low pressure.

So how can you have both high and low pressure indicators in the exact same case? Excessive headspace will do this.
If you over-size the case the firing pin drives the case forward until it stops at the shoulder then the pressure stretches and slams the case against the bolt face...Hard!

Please explain how you set up the sizing die.

Peace


</div></div>
 
#49
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The sizing DIE is made by Redding. Im using it in a Forster CO-AX. I set it up according to the instructions. Raise the ram up, screw the DIE down until it touches the shell holder, set the Forster Lock Ring so the die cant be adjusted accidently, and make sure the De-Cap pic is 3/16" sticking out of the bottom of the DIE.
</div></div>

I think we've found the problem...
What is manifesting itself as a pressure problem, in the form of case-head ejector swipe and primer issues, is actually excess headspace induced by resizing too much... essentially shortening the brass to such a degree that it will slam against the bolt-face when fired.

Neck size only and load up that same ladder of loads... I'll bet your issues go away.

cheers
 
#50
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I disagree with Xfan, respectfully, of course. We should note that his cases were previously fired and maybe he was over pressure with the other powder, before he loaded his lightest charge? Remote but as has been noted, how do you have ejector marks and no flattened primers? I also disagree that flattened primers are a poor indicator: they mean something to me, and that's all I care about. If they are poor indicators for xfan, that's his business, (and I do not have a ballistics lab) but I have the 35P and consider what I do have as sufficient to develop a safe and accurate load.

So, none of the four conditions were in evidence, and we are back with evaluating this gun with this load and seeing obvious over pressure signs. I don't need lab equipment to see the problem; a blind man could see the problem....it's too hot!

And, a chronograph is an extremely useful tool, that way you could tell right away if 40 grains of Varget yields a comparable velocity as the published data and why they say to start 10% below published data. As far as charge weight.

I have a lot of doubt about excessive headspace, as well. He (says) he had no problems with 4895? I am not completely convinced of that, based on his pictures for reasons I already stated. Seems to me that he would have experienced case head separation by now, or incipient at least, if he knows what to look for and this can be done with a sharpened and bent paper clip along the inside near the web. I expect he won't find it?

Amigo, pick up another (different) recommended powder and start low and go slow. BB

edit: the above idea has some merit if you disregard everything the man says, and he has no idea how to full length resize or any variation. His description seems not suspicious, to me, but I have been wrong before? I don't remember when, but I think my wife pointed it out to me?

edit: good discussion though, entertaining and keeps us out of the bars!
 
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