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Project SALVO

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
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Yes!!....There is a munitions god.

Anyhow this is a link to a long running project, post WWII, that experimented with a lot of different cartridge combinations. I found this while looking for cartridge.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...rtridges/15609

This is a catridge collectors link. But it shows some pretty cool ideas of 1952 through 1960 when the project ended. Or, more truthfully morphed into other things.

Added:

Im not exactly computer savvy, and I'm on my phone for now, so this may come to you a little bit jumbled. Here is the link

www.cartridgecollectors.org

Added II:

Another site that talks about Project SALVO is:

www.looserounds.com
 
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Over at M40 forum there is a former Remington employee posting as of late that spoke of two weapons he worked on during the VN war.

One was a full auto Model 1100 intended to be used for perimeter defense and one was some sort of "stacking" of Nylon 66 .22s intended to fire simultaneously and release a "swarm" of .22 caliber projectiles to defend armored crews from attacking infantry.

Volley fire rather than aimed fire seems to be a recurring fantasy.
 
I don't know the designation, but there is a two-barreled infantry rifle prototype at the Springfield Armory Museum. Fired two 7.62's or similar simultaneously. Idea was to create two wound channels. Not a viable option. Regulating barrels, recoil, dual barrels... all totally FUBAR. But the prototype is cool as hell. I have a photo somewhere but can't find it.

I have a couple of caseless Smith and Wesson rounds given to me by Roy Jinks. One .22 and one 9mm. Live. Cool stuff. But so far, noone has ever cracked the caseless nut, either. Technologically, it's not hard. But acceptance... good luck!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I don't know the designation, but there is a two-barreled infantry rifle prototype at the Springfield Armory Museum. Fired two 7.62's or similar simultaneously. Idea was to create two wound channels. Not a viable option. Regulating barrels, recoil, dual barrels... all totally FUBAR. But the prototype is cool as hell. I have a photo somewhere but can't find it.

I have a couple of caseless Smith and Wesson rounds given to me by Roy Jinks. One .22 and one 9mm. Live. Cool stuff. But so far, noone has ever cracked the caseless nut, either. Technologically, it's not hard. But acceptance... good luck!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Let's not talk caseless ammo, please. It gets Diane Feinstein and Nancy Pelosi moist.

I like the idea of ammo made from components that guys that use their big toe as vice can reload......
 
Caseless ammo has been around for hundreds of years. In my time we called them Muzzle Loaders or Cap and Ball Revolvers.

Don't let Kraig fool you.... he was at the leading edge of technology in the day and pioneered a lot of the equipment used for tactical entry. He carried one of these for years!

1514929404856.jpg


On caseless.... yeah, the technology has been mature for decades. But noone trusts it or likes it. It's just one of those good ideas that seems like it's 20 years away... every year.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
This was an offshoot of Project SALVO:

todays article:
VIETNAM SNIPER STUDY


In 1967, the Army got the idea to study whether, how, and how effectively different units were using snipers in Vietnam. They restricted this study to Army units, and conventional units at that; if SF and SOG were sniping, they didn’t want to know (and, indeed, there’s little news either in the historical record or in conversations with surviving veterans that special operations units made much use of precision rifle fire, or of the other capabilities of snipers).

Meanwhile, of course, the Marines were conducting parallel development in what would become the nation’s premier sniper capability, until the Army got their finger out in the 1980s and developed one with similar strength. The Marines’ developments are mentioned only in passing in the study. Specific Weapons


The study observed several different sniper weapons in use:
  • ordinary M16A1 rifles with commercial Realist-made scopes. This is the same 3×20 scope made by Realist for commercial sale under the Colt name, and was marked Made in USA. (Image is a clone, from ARFCOM).
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"realist11","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"488","width":"650","src":"http:\/\/weaponsman.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/03\/realist11.jpg"}[/IMG2]
  • Winchester Model 70s in .30-06 with a mix of Weaver and Bushnell scopes, purchased by one infantry brigade;
  • two versions of the M14 rifle. One was what we’d call today a DMR rifle, fitted with carefully chosen parts and perhaps given a trigger job, and an M84 scope. The other was the larva of the M21 project: a fully-configured National Match M14 fitted with a Leatherwood ART Automatic-Ranging Telescope, which was at this early date an adaptation of a Redfield 3-9 power scope. (Image is a semi clone with a surplus ART, found on the net).
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"M21 ARTR","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"532","width":"1023","src":"http:\/\/weaponsman.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/03\/M21-ARTR.jpg"}[/IMG2]

The scopes had a problem that would be unfamiliar to today’s ACOG and Elcan-sighted troopies.
The most significant equipment problem during the evaluation in Vietnam was moisture seepage into telescopes. At the end of the evaluation period, 84 snipers completed questionnaires related to their equipment. Forty-four of the snipers reported that their telescopes developed internal moisture or fog during the evaluation period. In approximately 90 percent of the cases, the internal moisture could be removed by placing the telescope in direct sunlight for a few hours.​

The leaky scopes ranged from 41% of the ARTs to 62% of the Realists. The Realist was not popular at all, and part of the reason was its very peculiar reticle. How peculiar? Have a look.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Colt realist 3x20 scope reticle","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"600","width":"800","src":"http:\/\/weaponsman.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/03\/Colt-realist-3x20-scope-reticle.jpg"}[/IMG2](A later version of this scope, sold by Armalite with the AR-180, added feather-thin crosshairs to the inverted post. The British Trilux aka SUIT used a similar inverted post, but it never caught on here).

The theory was that the post would not obscure the target, the way it would if it were bottom-up. That’s one of the ones you file away in the, “It seemed like a good idea at the time,” drawer. Theory be damned, the troops hated it.

The use of the rifles varied unit by unit. Two units contemptuously dismissed the scoped M16s, and wouldn’t even try them (remember, this was the era of M193 ammo, rifles ruined by “industrial action,” and somewhat loose acceptance standards; the AR of 20145 is not the AR of 1965). The proto-M21s came late and not every unit got them. It’s interesting that none of the weapons really stood out, although the NATO and .30-06 guns were the ones used for the longest shots.

None of the weapons was optimum, but in the study authors’ opinion, the DMR version of the M14 was perfectly adequate and available in channels. The snipers’ own opinions were surveyed, and the most popular weapon was the M14 National Match with ART scope, despite its small sample size: 100% of the surveyed soldiers who used it had confidence in it. On the other hand, the cast scope rings were prone to breakage.

The biggest maintenance problem turned out to be the COTS Winchester 70 rifles, and the problem manifested as an absence of spare parts for the nonstandard firearm, and lack of any training for armorers.

Looking at all the targets the experimental units engaged, they concluded that a weapon with a 600 meter effective range could service 95% of the sniper targets encountered in Vietnam, and that a 1000 meter effective range would be needed to bag up to 98%. (Only one unit in the study engaged targets more distant than 1000 m at all).

Snipers were generally selected locally, trained by their units (if at all), and employed as an organic element of rifle platoons. A few units seem to have attached snipers to long-range patrol teams, or used the snipers as an attached asset, like a machine-gun or mortar team from the battalion’s Weapons Company.

An appendix from the USAMTU had a thorough run-down on available scopes, and concluded with these recommendations (emphasis ours):
Recommendations:
a. That the M-14, accurized to National Match specifications, be used as the basic sniping rifle.

b. That National Match ammunition be used in caliber 7.62 NATO.

c. That a reticle similar to Type “E” be used on telescopic sights of fixed power.

d. That the Redfield six power “Leatherwood” system telescope be used by snipers above basic unit level.

e. That the Redfield four power (not mentioned previously) be utilized by the sniper at squad level.

f. That serious consideration be given to the development of a long range sniping rifleusing the .50 caliber machine gun cartridge and target-type telescope.

(NOTE: It is our opinion that the Redfield telescope sights are the finest of American made telescopes.)​

Note that the Army adopted the NM M14 with ART (as the M-21 sniper system) exactly as recommended here, but that it did not act on the .50 caliber sniper system idea. That would take Ronnie Barrett to do, quite a few years later.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Rifle_M21_2","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"212","width":"615","src":"http:\/\/weaponsman.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/03\/Rifle_M21_2.jpg"}[/IMG2]The Effects of Terrain


Terrain drives weapons employment, and snipers need, above all, two elements of terrain to operate effectively: observation and fields of fire. Their observation has to overlook enemy key terrain and/or avenues of approach. Without that, a sniper is just another rifleman, and snipers were found to be not worth the effort in the heavily vegetated southern area of Vietnam.

In the more open rice fields and mountains, there was more scope for sniper employment. But sniper employment was not something officers had been trained in or practiced. The Effects of Leadership


In a careful review of the study, we found that the effects of leadership, of that good old Command Emphasis, were greater than any effects of equipment or even of terrain. The unit that had been getting good results with the Winchesters kept getting good results. One suspects that they’d have continued getting good results even if you took their rifles away entirely and issued each man a pilum or sarissa.

Units that made a desultory effort got crap for results. Some units’ snipers spent a lot of time in the field, but never engaged the enemy. Others engaged the enemy, but didn’t hit them, raising the question, “Who made these blind guys snipers?” Sure, we understand a little buck fever, but one unit’s snipers took 20 shots at relatively close range and hit exactly nothing. Guys, that’s not sniping, that’s fireworks.

The entire study is a quick read and it will let you know just how dark the night for American sniping was in the mid-1960s: there were no schools, no syllabi, no type-standardized sniper weapons, and underlying the whole forest of “nos” was: no doctrine to speak of.

Vietnam Sniper Study PB2004101628.pdf

About Hognose


Former Special Forces 11B2S, later 18B, weapons man. (Also served in intelligence and operations jobs in SF)
 
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Excellent read sand.. any clue why SOF in 'Nam didn't really make much use of snipers? Seems like they'd be the prime groups to need them most.

But then again maybe snipers were utilized in some secret squirrel ops, possibly without even realizing they were conducting unconventional operations..? For instance, Ive read Adelbert Waldron and some of his peers racked up quite a few enemy KIA while furthering the CIA's Phoenix Program and may not have even realized they were doing so in the bigger picture-view of things. It wouldn't surprise me anyhow, it don't seem uncommon for the CIA to utilize doorkickers while simultaneously keeping them out of the large scale-loop... compartmentalizing info and such.
 
Coyote,

SOF actually did quite a bit. A lot more than we ever knew back in the day. They had access to anything they wanted that could be had both military and civilian, ...and what could be made. You may remember a Rem 700 with an ART stuck on top of it. Turns out that was done, just not that rifle during VN. Rem 700's in various cartridges. Win70's too, both pre and post.

​​​​​​​VN started as an ideal from the American perspective, but became a testbed for a lot of things.
 
Different cartridge. the FAT-1E3 (same case as current 7.62) with a .22 cal bullet:
1516774375547.png


"The 22 NATO is one of the
experimental rounds developed
for testing in Project SALVO,
a US military test in the 1950s to
evaluate the effectiveness of small
caliber and multiple projectile
cartridges.
The Caliber .22 NATO round was
based on the standard NATO case
and fired from specially modified
M-14s.
It was made on special government
contract by Winchester Western
and bears the (WCC 56)
head stamp for 1956.
The 22 Cal has a .223" diameter
projectile vs. the 7.62 Nato
or (308 Winchecster) at .308"
diameter projectile.
"
 
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