Night Vision Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

[sandwalk3r]

I have a LDI DBAL Class I IR kit that Victor at tnvc.com talked me into a little while back and have recently begun messing with it more.

I have a question regarding properly zeroing the lasers. Lasers seem so tricky to me that it's been a little frustrating, and I'm not pro.

I used the TNVC quick release mount for my PVS-14 in front of my Vector 1-4x22 scope in order to eyeball the dot to where the crosshairs said the laser dot should be.

Then I tried shifting my scope forward on the rails (16" Noveske stainless) to put the PVS 14 behind. After getting my forward dope dialed in on my scope, the dot seems way out of whack.

Do you have any tips on how to really properly and quickly adjust the vis and invis IR lasers?

I read something by John Plaster somewhere about needing to parallel the laser to the crosshairs. i.e. if I have my DBAL unit mounted on top, the IR laser is high left of bore. So at 100yds, the point of impact should be the exact distance low left. I may be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading that this allows your holds to be identical at varying ranges if you're operating off of a 100yd zero and holding over w/your scope.

After I got my scope dialed in and working at 100yds, I tried getting my laser dialed in and firing at 100. Couldn't get a single hit on a piece of printer paper, though it was very hard to see (1.8x magnification). Part of the problem was visibility, where I couldn't magnify to 4x with any sort of focus, and the small objective lens wouldn't let much light in.

Are there recommended ranges for zero? I know I can see the IR laser out to about 300at my farm. Are there any tricks for making a custom target that I can shoot at a closer range that is designed to zero for a longer distance (i.e. using the mechanical offsets discussed above?).

Any help would be great. Sorry that brevity ain't my thing.

~A

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Here's more info w/pics:

I was at 25 yards (paced off). Point of aim was dead center. Point of impact needed to be ~1.5" low (per my ballistics info & offset). Final 3 shots were basically right where they needed to be.

At 100 yds, readjusted my IR laser to be perfect at 100, but I couldn't hit jack in 5 rounds.

More pics showing my setup w/the DBAL and the PVS-14:

 

[Asm1]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Sonic rounds , Mount the day scope as you normaly use it Dial in a 50 yard zero with the day scope, Mount The I2 on the Top rail now Hold the PVS14 by hand behind the day scope site the IR laser to the scope zero cross hair You can move the Laser Pointer Dot 1" LEFT at 50 yards I use a single click left for mechanical laser Offset its close enough to Kill small things to 250 yards. Use Head Mount and Go Kill.

If your useing the scope piggy back-pvs14 then you must side mount with your Limited rail space. ZERO at 25 yards and use it for 75yards and in.And use the Optics and PVS14 for longer shots with out the laser .another Option if you need to stay piggy back You can ditch the BUIS sights and Mount the laser On the front top rail. I am a BUIS user myself and would not do it.

ALL RAILS FLEX and You will have some ZERO shift. I ZERO the same way I will be useing it.

 

[TNVC - Kyle]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

In reference to your John Plaster comment: Yes, this is a way that some people like to run their lasers. What you are doing is dupicating the physical offset that exists between your day optic and your IR aiming laser. In effect, this means that (if set-up correctly) the variance that exists at the barrel will duplicate itself at any distance. This is of course highly dependant on bullet drop and drift so, let's stick to <span style="text-decoration: underline">this</span> particular sighting issue. So, two major rules of thought:
1. Sight your rifle in where your laser converges with your day sighting device, at a known distance. Pros - dead on accuracy at that distance and easy to sight in. You just sandbag a zeroed rifle, put your day optic on the target, line up your IR laser to the exact same point. Done. Cons - at variable distances, your bullet will impact off-center in direct relation to the offset of your sight. Expample: laser is 1" lower and 1" right of optic sight line. With a 50 yard zero, your bullet should impact 1/2" low and 1/2" right at 25 yards. At 75 yards, 1/2" high and 1/2" left. That's the crossover. Predictable but, you have to know your distance and your holds.
2. Sight your rifle in to match the Laser and Day-optic offset. This is a little more complex but, some guys (me included) like this method. So, get your cleared rifle that already has a zeroed optic. Take a piece of grid paper and place the muzzle in the center of the paper. Look through your optic and mark the center. Turn on your laser and mark the projection point. Remove rifle and measure the difference. This is your physical offset target. Use this target to go through the same procedure as above: sandbag rifle, place day-optic crosshairs on the day-optic pointyou marked and, adjust the laser to the laser point you marked. Voila! you have set your offset. Now, you will hold that offset at any distance. Make sense?
Again, this is not taking into effect the bullet drop and drift. That is another animal. However, if you are zeroing at 50 and, you know what your next crossover flight is (say 200)then, your offset hold is the same at 200. You have to look at the rest of your ballistic profile and just figure it out.
Lastly, if you want to do all of this a little easier: cut out a 1 to 2 inch hole in the target. That's the crosshairs for Method #1 and the offset point for Method #2. That way, when you are adjusting the laser to the desired point, it will diminish or dissapear when you get to the correct spot.
Hope all that helps.
Have fun.
Kyle

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Hello all,

Folks here on the Hide NV forum have just started seeing a few post from K7H, his name is Kyle and let it be known he is one of our TNVC trainers and has a wealth of knowledge from his years of heavy trigger pull days in SF and years also spent with ITT.

Kyle has an amazing set of skills in the NV arena and has trained thousands over the years. He's also a great guy and VERY approachable so feel free to pick his brain!

We here at TNVC are all about bringing the best knowledge we can to the community and our staff is made up of the finest NV folks with real world experience. Not many "posers" around here. ;-)

Glad to see Kyle hanging out around here nowadays.

Vic

 

[Asm1]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

.Sandwalk3r

A question that comes to mind I wanted to ask you.

Did you check the vortex after the forward move to verify Zero by shooting it ?
I moved alot of scope forward on a lot of different rails WITH ZERO shifts.

I have never had one that was the same zero when moved forward.

Off Topic here Vic, But Glad your expanding the payroll its good for the economy.

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Thanks Kyle and Vic. TNVC rules! I need to order a replacement scope/PVS-14 adapter. I lost the threaded screw that attaches the PVS-14 ;(

Re: ASM1 - yes, I have a zero shift. That's where I was trying to re-zero from 25 relative to what it should be @ 100.

But I later realized I did a calc error and was compensating for twice the true amount that I needed to come down ;(

 

[Asm1]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

I thought that was the case..There is nothing new under the sun.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Kyle and Vic. TNVC rules! I need to order a replacement scope/PVS-14 adapter. I lost the threaded screw that attaches the PVS-14 ;(

Re: ASM1 - yes, I have a zero shift. That's where I was trying to re-zero from 25 relative to what it should be @ 100.

But I later realized I did a calc error and was compensating for twice the true amount that I needed to come down ;( </div></div>

 

[shooter6.5]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

these are all very good answers and give you several options. If you go to the PDF files for some of the mil lasers they will go into great detail and even show targets and where bullet impact should be. I use the method ASM1, and K7H does as it is easy to do. If you are having problems then start off close, and get on paper and then move out to your desired range. Save some time and frustration and start at 10 yards. Works for me, and is easy to do. Gotta have the weapon in a very solid devise or the cross hair moves. Really works easy with two folks. One to steady the weapon while you adjust the beam. Also keep in nmind that with the end cap on the PVS-14 you can safely see the IR laser during the day time. That is with the end cap ON. Do not do it for long periods of time and do NOT take the end cap off during day light conditions as you take the chance of damaging the tube.

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Okay, here's what I did, and you can tell me if I'm entirely doing it wrong. No opportunity to range test it yet or really see how it adds up beyond 25yds, but here's the methodology.

Here's a pic of the chart I used to get my mechanical parallels:

Didn't have a ruler on me, but using the Moleskine grids (0.2"), I realized that my crosshairs are actually 2.8" over the bore's centerline and not 2.5" (oops!).

Put the barrel on the bottom center of page (you can see the grime), and confirmed crosshair point of aim @~2.8".

Measured height of center of the laser ports on the DBAL. Both are 2" above bore centerline, and each are 0.8" to the right and left, respectively. Noted on chart.

I used a level to get it taped on a cabinet door and propped up my AR a couple of yards away and leveled it off. I got the green laser on spot.

I had to use my PVS-14 handheld for the IR portion, though. I got the gun more or less still and used the point for the desired point of aim to bring the IR laser on target.

So should this get it with the parallel zero model? I'm thinking that if it's truly aimed properly (probably not perfect with the imprecise setup) then the mechanical parallels with the point of aim should be fine.

Input?


*Edited to reduce image size*

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

Here is the setup. Noveske set up to keep day optic in place and head mount PVS-14. DBAL was moved up to the top rail per your suggestions.

I'm new with Camo Form, but I love it. It makes a great wrap for grip on the AR grip, cheek weld and foregrip.

I'm posting a close-up on the wrap around the pressure switch for the DBAL. I'm a fan, even though it's in an alternate hand position for me.

 

[Asm1]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

You're on the right track, But this is a simple thing to do.


I presume your zero at 100 yards and this is where my way may not be working for you as I use a 50 yard zero , here is the same thing in a different way.Do you know your 200 or 250 yard dope? Dial it up I presume around 1.5MOA ? Now Dial 1 MOA left in the scope, Now move the POINTER to the reticule aiming pointer close as it will go.

You are done. Go practice on small targets until you get comfortable with Hip shooting the whole package.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the setup. Noveske set up to keep day optic in place and head mount PVS-14. DBAL was moved up to the top rail per your suggestions.

I'm new with Camo Form, but I love it. It makes a great wrap for grip on the AR grip, cheek weld and foregrip.

I'm posting a close-up on the wrap around the pressure switch for the DBAL. I'm a fan, even though it's in an alternate hand position for me.

</div></div>

 

[TNVC - Kyle]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

You are doing it right. Of course, you will be achieving proper results at your actual zero distance. This method should get you properly setup to Move to a dry confirmation at distance then, live fire.
Have fun!

 

[Asm1]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K7H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are doing it right. Of course, you will be achieving proper results at your actual zero distance. This method should get you properly setup to Move to a dry confirmation at distance then, live fire.
Have fun! </div></div>

Just ZERO day scope with turrets use a PVS14 to hold behind the scope useing the laser move it to the day scope ZERO to any desired zero range. This is proven zero method with Zero rounds fired to ZERO the laser.

So You Prefer basic standard manual Bore sight ZERO over the ABOVE ?


To the OP Here is the basic manual for the D2 You should have the same Information in your manual for The I2.

LBS 10 METER..

By ASM1

25 meter zero target

ByASM1

 

[SNIPERS4DUMMIES]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

tagged

 

[sandwalk3r]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

I found the I2 manual in PDF pretty easily.

I do have a 100yd zero.

I like the prospect of the mechanical offset method, but I may just need to do the 50yd zero and get them on target.

In the end, ya gotta hit what you're aiming at!

Thanks all for the help. I'll update with actual range results once it stops being freezing cold!

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: Proper Sight-In with IR Laser

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Kyle and Vic. TNVC rules! I need to order a replacement scope/PVS-14 adapter. I lost the threaded screw that attaches the PVS-14 ;(

Re: ASM1 - yes, I have a zero shift. That's where I was trying to re-zero from 25 relative to what it should be @ 100.

But I later realized I did a calc error and was compensating for twice the true amount that I needed to come down ;( </div></div>

Btw sandwalk3r, thank you for your purchase and the kind words. We appreciate your business and glad we could help with your IR laser zeroing process.

Vic