PRS rule on moving wrong on stage

walkabout

walkabout

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 21, 2012
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Devon, England
#1
Hi Guys,
Could somebody explain the rule on the following PRS situation?
I'm on a stage with 3 positions, 3 targets to be shot left to right, 1 shot on each target from each position.
I'm at the first position, fire at only 2 targets and move to position 2.
I fire 1 shot at position 2 and realise I should have shot 3 rounds at position 1.
Do I go back to position 1 and shoot target 3, then go back to position 2 and continue to shoot target 2.
Or do I stay at position 2 engage target 3 to get back into sequence, then engage target 1 again?
Do I stay at Position 2 and engage target 1 again because Position 2,Target 1 is Shot 4.

Are positions and targets locked together?
I hope this makes sense??
 
#4
If the stage description gives a specific sequence of positions and/or targets, any rounds you send downrange from the wrong position or at the wrong target are considered a miss.

What you do to correct this depends on how you messed up.

- If you fired from the correct position, but at the wrong target......if you have more rounds remaining from that position, you engage the correct target. If you have no more rounds from that position, you move to the next position.

- If you fired from the wrong position, no matter what targets you missed or hit, they are considered a miss, but you still need to get to the correct position and take the shots from the position in the correct order.

Regardless though, any rounds you have fired incorrectly are misses and subtracted from the total round count of the stage. I.E. if the stage has 10 shots and you make two incorrect shots, you can now only fire eight more shots for points.
 
#5
Wouldn't it matter if the stage description says (hit to advance) or (engage and move hit or miss)?

Hit to advance, you would have to go back. Because you haven't made your hit yet.

Move hit or miss, shots 3 was a miss and shot 4 (which you are now on due to the error) should be on barricade #2 and target #1

Tip: You need to pay attention to your RO. The RO shouldn't tell you anything. But you make a hit and know it and hear nothing back (no "IMPACT!"). You should say, "I hit that". RO doing his job properly should keep his mouth shut.

*No helping on the line except for juniors.*

That's the clue you done fucked up. Take 5-10 seconds and figure out what you did. The stage can still somewhat be salvaged. Stop and figure it out.
 
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#6
Most likely, you cannot return to a previous position so that third shot is considered a miss as it was skipped as soon as you fire the first shot on position 2. Assuming you have already fired a round at target 1 on position 2, the correct course of action would be to move on to target 2, and continue the stage as normal.
 
#7
I’d require them to re-engage T1 from P2 for their 4th shot, just as they would’ve if the 3rd shot was taken from the correct position on the correct target. Otherwise they get two misses.
 
#8
Doesn't really make any sense to do that. You'd just be forcing them to waste a round with no possibility of gaining a point. Shooters are typically allowed to skip shots or positions, but cannot return to pick up the points.
 
#9
You shoot the order as stated. Nobody is going to stop you from going back and shooting it correctly. Especially when the stage specifically states hit to advance and the stage has multiple movements in it.

That's why the stage descriptions are written very carefully to illustrate the stage intent. Some stages are designed move on hit or miss as a means to punish the shooter for missing. Oh you missed the 2" plate....well the next target is over there and it now 1.5" or 1". Good luck. That ramping up in difficulty is meant to weed out shooters. It's a feature of the stage.

The real question is why did the OP move off of position 1 when impact wasn't declared by the RO? I assume that he was so quick to move, that an impact was in fact seen.

That said, the last thing I would be cool with is an RO taking liberties with the COF. Telling them to shoot a target from the wrong position. Screw that. If its a kid....tell him what he did wrong and make them fix their mistake. If its an adult....leave them alone and let them solve it or time out.

You fucked up. You need to go back and do it right to continue. Your paying the man in time wasted as well. You aren't wasting a round correcting your error if you then went back and shot it properly. You wasted a round MAKING the error initially. You get points again for fixing your mistake and moving forward.
 
#10

It sounds like he didn't take his 3rd shot from position 1. So there was no "impact" to be declared or not.

Assuming he likely figured out what happened when he moved to position 2, took a shot, made an impact and the RO didn't call the impact.


Had he not fired the round on position 2, he could go back to position 1 and make the final shot there. But as it sits in his scenario, his first shot on position 2 was in error and actually finished out his position 1 string. So he should stay at position 2 and fire all 3 shots on the targets.

The trick is having an RO who's on the same page. With ROs being volunteers and many with zero training/experience, It's probably fairly possible the RO thinks he should go back to position 1 and finish even after he took a shot on position 2.
 
#11
to my knowledge, there is no specific rule on this in the PRS rule book

they did trial both versions at MKM for the rimfire finales
- they ran the regional finale one way, and the national finale the other

hopefully they add something soon to make it 100% clear
 
#12
Thanks Guys for the replies.
Seems there is now real definitive answer.
When I shot in the PRS worlds in France last year and the .22 worlds in Italy this year there was different Interpretations.
But I think a lot of time it's down to the knowledge of the RO's and spotters, who are most of the time volunteers and may not know themselves.
Luck of the draw and down to the match director hopefully explaining beforehand, so many beginners loosing points and getting frustrated.
Seems especially here in the UK, where stages are getting more "Tricky" with lots of different targets from different positions.
 
#13
@walkabout almost everyone agrees that it's like I said in post #2

I can't say I've ever heard of it being handled any other way.
You don't get a chance to go back and get those points it's just a miss.
Hopefully you figure it out before you carry on any farther because you could likely screw up your entire stage if you don't
 
#14

it’s not so much about going back and getting points

it’s about losing points until you go back to the position you “missed”

I guess for context, in the rimfire worlds,
I heard, if you skipped a position or target, you had to go back to it.
Otherwise all future engagements would be considered misses.

to my knowledge this was specific to the rimfire worlds and the north east rimfire finale this past year.

but, it’s not clearly stated in the PRS rule book to my knowledge which is “correct”
 
#15
I don't think you understood properly.

The problem would be if you accidentally skipped a shot and then just continued the regular course of fire all your shots would be off the course of fire and considered misses.

If you realize you skipped one then you need to figure out where in the COF you should be based on your shot count and resume there.
 
#16
nope i understood perfectly

it was discussed at length at the rimfire national finale amongst a few of the worlds shooters

this is what’s being discussed

rule set 1 - have to go back
position 1
T1
T2
T3 - not fired
all future shots will be misses until you go back to P1, T3 and engage,
then you can continue

rule set 2 - don’t have to go back
position 1
T1
T2
T3 - not fired
Position 2
T1 - miss(wrong target, wrong position)
T1 again - impact

issue being discussed is, there’s no rule in the current PRS rule book that says which is correct

edit:
added the rule from IPRF for those who care
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#18
I think Set 1 is the strictest way of handling it. If the next position is meant to test a different skill or vantage point, repeating that shot (as we typically do), spoils that test and could theoretically give you an advantage depending on the circumstances.

At a major match, I could see Set 1 being enforced. At a local match, I could see that driving people away, rapidly.

I can see the intent and merits of both methods. I think picking only one paints course designers into a narrow corner, with wildly different penalties depending on the course.

I don’t see a good solution, other than clearly communicating which is being enforced on that stage/match.
 
#20
This is kinda dumb IMHO

Here is my example, shooting national matches...

At one match, the weather was so bad you couldn't see the far targets, so many of us skipped targets because we are not going to fire rounds randomly into the rain abyss.

In that case, it was scored as you changed positions. It was a 12 round stage from 4 positionS, 3 shots each, however each position had a 1-2 targets that could not be seen. A 8/12 was a CLEAN.
 
#24
This. A quick confab with the RO and spotter before rounds go down range helps. The more experienced the RO/spotter, the better things run. If I don’t hear “impact”when I know I hit what I was aiming, at it’s time to take a deep breath and think. Salvaging a few good hits when you blow the start is better than hammering on and zeroing the stage.
 
#26

Forgive me, as I have experience in many years of NRL22 and haven't even been to a PRS format match. So take this for what it's worth.

That's why I said stage descriptions are written very specifically (and I'll admit rarely sometimes not).

In NRL22 you are supposed to follow the instructions exactly. It forces you to have an understanding of what is being asked of you. It forces you to have things like target discrimination and time management and equipment management. Not just shooting skill.

When the COF says hit to advance....its done to force you into a series of events. You didn't shoot the proper target to advance. Any shots after are misses until/if you go back and fix your error.

When the COF says advance hit or miss...you are penalized for that one first bad shot and can just move forward given you realized what you did.

It's not messed up as you say. Its a feature of the stage by design.

You as the shooter should be asking questions of the MD (not necessarily the RO's) if at all possible whenever there is a concern of what your supposed to do. And do it  before you start the stage.

When that stage description is vague. You can use that to look for an advantage. Maybe something is there....maybe there isn't. But not knowing exactly wtf to do when they ask you if you understand the COF....is totally on you. Not saying that to be mean or uncaring...its just a fact. And I personally can tell you I've found a few smart crafty ways to shoot a stage in the past because I asked the MD beforehand.

If I'm standing there on the sidelines watching the RO give you some non standard instruction....I'm gonna pipe up. Unless your a kid.

Because for #1....you as an adult is not supposed to recieve any help per the rules. You can have a 20 man confab asking 20 questions of everyone.... before you are standing on the firing line. You can ask neighboring squads who shot the stage before you and after for what it's worth.

And #2, because we have a written COF sheet stapled to the stage for reference. You can literally get up and go look at what the firing order or specific instruction is.

Yeah, its gonna suck time. Yeah, your gonna look dumb because you forgot wtf your supposed to do. But so what. Fix your mistake or figure out where your supposed to be and keep kicking ass.

I haven't met a person who regularly competes that hasn't burned a stage because they misunderstood the COF intent or did some boneheaded mistake. You do it once and you instantly become more focused on what is truly important.

As far as NRL22 rules/format is concerned, it's pretty easy to see what is supposed to done. They are gonna walk you to the COF sheet and say, "see here....its says advance hit or miss. You are off a correct plate every shot after that." or "you didn't make an impact to justify you advancing."

Even as a total loss you can always ask the MD if you qualify for a reshoot because it was possibly vague. Maybe he will give you a reshoot on the target or the stage or tell you your boned (MD's word is final). And even then, you can message the organization. But they mostly revert to the MD final say or they look at the wording and give you a solution. Which likely won't do you any good after the match is long over. But it will be addressed into the future.

And I've seen at least a half dozen times when the COF is released that people immediately found a wording error or a vaguely worded line of instruction the first day of its release is up. Let alone making it to game day.

Sorry for being a long winded post. But you saying they don't have a answer is usually false. Especially this far along in both series lifespan.

Your example isn't even that exotic of an issue to address to be honest. Just saying. I wish you luck going forward.
 
#27

there are no rules to my knowledge in the NRL22 or NRL22x rule book either that clarify this

we are not talking about hit to move on stages

we are mainly talking about positional procedural errors and how to correct them on the clock
 
#28

those sections only define what RO’s can say for hits or misses

“not an impact” was used in place of “wrong target”

main reason, it could be the right target, but wrong position
 
#29
I'd be pissed if an RO said "not an impact". The only time they should say the word "impact" is when an impact is made and is counted for score. If you didn't hear "not an", you would rightfully assume you had an impact.

"Negative"
"Nope"
"Doesn't count"
Pretty much anything other than a sentence or phrase containing "Impact"
 
#35

I've never seen rule set 1 enforced at any PRS match that I've been to, unless the course of fire specifically said Hit to Move on. I've seen it handled like rule set 2 many, many times.

Rule set 1 seems wrong to me. What would be next? If you shoot at the wrong target are they going to make you go back and shoot at the correct one?
 
#36
Yes. I always walk along with the MD’s stages brief to the ROs if I can. If I blow a stage, shrug and move on. Don’t be whiner, we all mess up and trying to crank at an MD isn’t very helpful in the long run. If it’s a bad mistake on the MD’s part I don’t shoot their matches next time.
 
#37
correct, only used at the rimfire worlds and the PRS22 northeast regional finale so far

but, I read the rule book a few times, it doesn't 100% say what the correct way is

and yes, under rule set 1, you would not get more impacts, until you go back to the position you "missed",
and reengaged

to me, it makes sense in matches like worlds, where every stage is timed, and your score is an integral of both points and time

other matches not so much,
but again, right now its not written anywhere which is correct in the PRS rule book, which it should be
 
#39
The reason for the RO to say "not a impact" is because spotters watching through glass will call impact not realizing the shooter is in the wrong position. Its very clear when i heard it and right away new what i did.
 
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