PSA for those of you 'gearing up' for your daily carry stuff

[TheGerman]

I've seen threads here and other places where people are now carrying literally a backpack worth of stuff around in their pockets all day full of reloads,multiple knives, bear spray, window breakers, whatever.

Just stop.

You need a firearm concealed on your belt with 1 reload in a pocket; this basically covers everything short of you being involved in the firefight from HEAT.

What most people seem to forget about for those 'grey area' circumstances that are all too common now is something else you can carry around in your shorts/most pants (unless its like some faggot skinny jeans shit) that takes minimal training, doesn't weigh alot and is a force multipler when people are VERY close to you, yet there might not be enough of a threat to shoot them - go get yourself a legit, collapsible ASP baton.

They make versions that when collapsed will fit in mostly any cargo style shorts pockets and depending on your state (go check, mine is legal) you can carry them around on your person or your vehicle without the need of any kind of license or restriction.

If you've ever seen anyone smacked with a ASP before, you'll know how effective it can be. It's also a great tool for when you don't think you can legally pull a firearm, yet don't want to be at the mercy of what comes next. The ASP creates a bridge between either deescalating a situation with a few bonks on the hands/arms/shoulders/knees/heads of people and that being over, or if the situation escalates afterwards and the justified use of a firearm is needed, then pull the gun.

No need for an all or nothing approach. And stop carrying 25lbs of random shit in your pockets.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I've seen threads here and other places where people are now carrying literally a backpack worth of stuff around in their pockets all day full of reloads,multiple knives, bear spray, window breakers, whatever.

Just stop.

You need a firearm concealed on your belt with 1 reload in a pocket; this basically covers everything short of you being involved in the firefight from HEAT.

What most people seem to forget about for those 'grey area' circumstances that are all too common now is something else you can carry around in your shorts/most pants (unless its like some faggot skinny jeans shit) that takes minimal training, doesn't weigh alot and is a force multipler when people are VERY close to you, yet there might not be enough of a threat to shoot them - go get yourself a legit, collapsible ASP baton.

They make versions that when collapsed will fit in mostly any cargo style shorts pockets and depending on your state (go check, mine is legal) you can carry them around on your person or your vehicle without the need of any kind of license or restriction.

If you've ever seen anyone smacked with a ASP before, you'll know how effective it can be. It's also a great tool for when you don't think you can legally pull a firearm, yet don't want to be at the mercy of what comes next. The ASP creates a bridge between either deescalating a situation with a few bonks on the hands/arms/shoulders/knees/heads of people and that being over, or if the situation escalates afterwards and the justified use of a firearm is needed, then pull the gun.

No need for an all or nothing approach. And stop carrying 25lbs of random shit in your pockets.

I can attest to their effectiveness after having been hit with one.

 

[timesublime]

go get yourself a legit, collapsible ASP baton.

Do you have a brand recommendation?

 

[TheGerman]

I can attest to their effectiveness after having been hit with one.

I never thought much of them more than them being a solid stick.

Then I saw a guy hit someone that was 1.5 times his size with one in the knee/shin area from the side and holy shit.

Why are you getting hit with batons?

 

[LawnMM]

Legally, when you introduce a tool like a baton, you're escalating to a felony assault, in most places, if you're on the wrong side of a liberal DA or Judge's political spectrum.

You also leave yourself open to the other side making shit up or trying to say you robbed them or whatever.

IMO, stick with the gun and spare mag. If you get stuck in a situation wishing for an impact tool you already fucked up. The smartest play is to avoid it in the first place.

If it's unavoidable, well, dead men tell no tales and it's your version of the events and articulation of your actions against a corpse that can't talk

 

[TheGerman]

Do you have a brand recommendation?

Unless things have changed, I'd still go with the original gangster ASP brand.

 

[isofahunter]

So I should cancel the wheelbarrow with run flat tire order?

 

[TheGerman]

Legally, when you introduce a tool like a baton, you're escalating to a felony assault, in most places, if you're on the wrong side of a liberal DA or Judge's political spectrum.

You also leave yourself open to the other side making shit up or trying to say you robbed them or whatever.

IMO, stick with the gun and spare mag. If you get stuck in a situation wishing for an impact tool you already fucked up. The smartest play is to avoid it in the first place.

If it's unavoidable, well, dead men tell no tales and it's your version of the events and articulation of your actions against a corpse that can't talk

You're looking at this way too logically.

I'm looking at this in relation to how things are popping up all over the place right now with random assaults on people for no reason. Generally, the assaulters won't call the police the same way a drug dealer isn't going to call them after being ripped off. There's a whole genre now of people pledging to knock anyone out that says 'all lives matter' and 100 other things. Hell, its getting to the point that you're a target simply because you're not right next to them screaming everyone is a racist.

You're also under the impression that I'm going to hang out and call/wait for police after an attempted random assault and theres people with broken arms/knees squirming about.

Using your firearm basically paints you in the corner that you now need to wait, go through the process and hope you come out fine on the other side. In a lot of states, its perfectly legal to defend yourself with a less than lethel weapon with the only prerequisite being that you are about to/have been physically assaulted. Again, check the regs for YOUR state.

I'm not pulling a gun out unless you're getting a round in your face right around the time you realize whats happening. This is something for the in between.

Oh, and be sure to be safe and wear your COVID mask!

 

[TheGerman]

So I should cancel the wheelbarrow with run flat tire order?

No.

How are you going to carry around all your bitches and loot?

 

[...]

an Asp agent is usually in my pocket any time im in a city.

Agent Concealable Baton, (Steel) 40cm | ASP Baton

The Nexus clip may be adjusted to a variety of positions along the handle to enhance concealment or ease of presentation. See all ASP police supplies for sale.

www.asp-usa.com

 

[...]

Legally, when you introduce a tool like a baton, you're escalating to a felony assault, in most places, if you're on the wrong side of a liberal DA or Judge's political spectrum.

You also leave yourself open to the other side making shit up or trying to say you robbed them or whatever.

IMO, stick with the gun and spare mag. If you get stuck in a situation wishing for an impact tool you already fucked up. The smartest play is to avoid it in the first place.

If it's unavoidable, well, dead men tell no tales and it's your version of the events and articulation of your actions against a corpse that can't talk

if i have some scrawny antifa hipster trying to throw a punch at me....im not about to gun him down......then again, im also not going to fist fight him.

me pulling a baton on someone trying to fist fight me isnt "escalation" or "assault", as im not the initial aggressor..... i have 0 moral or legal obligation to fight him "fairly"....and every legal right to defend myself.

 

[TheHorta]

Where does this unnatural affection for batons come from, TG?

(Too far? )

 

[TxWelder35]

Pass on a baton. If you have to smash someone in the face with a baton, you’ve already met the threshold for deadly force and need to have your pistol out.

 

[TheGerman]

Where does this unnatural love for batons come from, TG?

View attachment 7375239

(Too far? )

Who says I dont have one?

 

[Thorny]

Do you have a brand recommendation?

I have a Bonowi Camlock Push Button Expandable Baton. It has a push button tail cap, you push it to make it collapse. Very stout.

 

[TheGerman]

Pass on a baton. If you have to smash someone in the face with a baton, you’ve already met the threshold for deadly force and need to have your pistol out.

Not so sure; thats why I'm mentioning the grey area.

With the large amounts of literally random assaults as well as part of the population now either thinking they can get away with being hood rats and/or now on the lookout to being an opportunist, I've started watching a ton of the clips that are going around. Theres no shortage of them.

Most wouldn't warrant the legal use of a firearm until much later in the situation; by that point you are on the ground getting your head stomped on. Having 1-2 people coming up to you, unarmed, trying to sucker punch you or beat you, is a pretty grey area thing as far as a firearm is concerned. Are you willing to bet your life on everyone else seeing it your way?

Again, most states have a legal requirment for non lethal weapons that require only assault. If 1-2 people start pushing on you and trying to knock you over - thats assault. Yet, its not enough to really prove that you were justified to kill them. Sure, once you're on the ground getting your head kicked in, thats now fear of life, but why get to that point?

Assault = hit them with the baton.

More of them show up to join/someone is armed = shoot

 

[TheHorta]

I wonder if you cam get one of these to pass TSA? I would imagine so.

 

[TheGerman]

Does the cargo shorts also have the added benefit / side effect as birth control also?

 

[TheGerman]

I wonder if you cam get one of these to pass TSA? I would imagine so.

You can check it in your baggage.

On your person I'm not sure. Plus it depends which 10/hr genius is working that day. Rules at the TSA checkpoint seem to just be made up as they go.

Too big of hand sanitizer = bad/weapon
Solid stainless pen = totally ok

 

[TheGerman]

an Asp agent is usually in my pocket any time im in a city.

Agent Concealable Baton, (Steel) 40cm | ASP Baton

The Nexus clip may be adjusted to a variety of positions along the handle to enhance concealment or ease of presentation. See all ASP police supplies for sale.

www.asp-usa.com

They dont have enough space to engrave Guess What Motherfucker on it

 

[supercorndogs]

I fill my cargo pockets with 25 lbs of change. Is it enough for an ASP baton, or should I pour the change in a sock?

 

[TxWelder35]

Not so sure; thats why I'm mentioning the grey area.

With the large amounts of literally random assaults as well as part of the population now either thinking they can get away with being hood rats and/or now on the lookout to being an opportunist, I've started watching a ton of the clips that are going around. Theres no shortage of them.

Most wouldn't warrant the legal use of a firearm until much later in the situation; by that point you are on the ground getting your head stomped on. Having 1-2 people coming up to you, unarmed, trying to sucker punch you or beat you, is a pretty grey area thing as far as a firearm is concerned. Are you willing to bet your life on everyone else seeing it your way?

Again, most states have a legal requirment for non lethal weapons that require only assault. If 1-2 people start pushing on you and trying to knock you over - thats assault. Yet, its not enough to really prove that you were justified to kill them. Sure, once you're on the ground getting your head kicked in, thats now fear of life, but why get to that point?

Assault = hit them with the baton.

More of them show up to join/someone is armed = shoot

I don’t know man. 6 months ago I would have answered this differently. Nowadays if someone from the protected is harassing you I think you end up in jail either way if you resist your white privilege beating at all.

now if one of these little Antifa fucks are attacking you, I think it’s about time for someone to make an example out of them. If someone is attempting to assault you, you can make that meet the legal defense for deadly force.

 

[...]

I fill my cargo pockets with 25 lbs of change. Is it enough for an ASP baton, or should I pour the change in a sock?

View attachment 7375237

Mean Gene Leather | MGL “Hot Tamale” V1 Coin Purse

www.meangeneleather.com

 

[TheGerman]

I fill my cargo pockets with 25 lbs of change. Is it enough for an ASP baton, or should I pour the change in a sock?

View attachment 7375237

Homie sock?

 

[supercorndogs]

Homie don't play dat..

 

[308pirate]

Pass on a baton. If you have to smash someone in the face with a baton, you’ve already met the threshold for deadly force and need to have your pistol out.

Is that why it's below firearms in the police's force continuum?

 

[308pirate]

Don't forget a little chemical irritant while you're at it.

Sabre OC gel -> baton strikes -> pistol + knife

 

[supercorndogs]

I think there is some discrepancy in what would be a delay weapon if you just attack someone with it, and what would be a deadly weapon if defend yourself with it.

 

[TheGerman]

I don’t know man. 6 months ago I would have answered this differently. Nowadays if someone from the protected is harassing you I think you end up in jail either way if you resist your white privilege beating at all.

now if one of these little Antifa fucks are attacking you, I think it’s about time for someone to make an example out of them. If someone is attempting to assault you, you can make that meet the legal defense for deadly force.

No I get it; we agree.

I'm just not going to tell people to go out and machine gun down people either.

This was for those that have started to and/or are expanding what they carry because exactly what you mentioned.

Remember, Step 1 is deescalate and GTFO if you can. I was taught this when I wanted to get involved in any curret gunfight that was going on in our AO in Afghanistan that we went through until I we had to be reminded that if its not our mission its not our fight. Obviously there's circumstance where we'd need to, but this applies to anything.

If you can't get away, then legally, its going to be determined as to what you can do by what you're dealing with. In my example above of 1-2 guys zeroing in on you and wanting to sucker punch or knock you down for no real reason, lethal force is going to be a reach until you're in fear of loss of life; that generally wouldn't be justified unless A. one/both were armed with something or B. youre on your ass getting your head stomped on, which is way too late.

Then again, having pantifa faggot trying to attack you and one hopping away because his hand and shin are broken isn't bad either, right? You also didn't need to use a firearm and get yourself into that can of worms.

 

[308pirate]

. In my example above of 1-2 guys zeroing in on you and wanting to sucker punch or knock you down for no real reason, lethal force is going to be a reach until you're in fear of loss of life; that generally wouldn't be justified unless A. one/both were armed with something or B. youre on your ass getting your head stomped on, which is way too late.

Nope. Disparity of force is a widely accepted doctrine in court and I'm not going to wait until I'm nearly unconscious.

 

[LawnMM]

Generally, the assaulters won't call the police the same way a drug dealer isn't going to call them after being ripped off.

You'd laugh at the number of Robbery calls I took working downtown after somebody got ripped off buying or selling drugs.

Today, there's cameras everywhere. If you think you're just going to crack a couple skulls (even deservedly) and disappear into the ether you're going to be disappointed.

You also look guilty by fleeing. Not saying it's right, or that I agree with any of it. Just politely disagreeing with your gray area theory.

You seem pretty capable, I doubt one thug is in for anything but an ass beating if he fucks with ze German.

If there's more than one, now the gun is justified and they shouldn't have brought fists to a gunfight.

I won't harp, just saying I don't think it's a good idea. That's all. What do I know

 

[308pirate]

Today, there's cameras everywhere.

They are hard to fool if you don't assume they're everywhere.

 

[chevy_man]

The shitty thing is the ASP is sold all over, with a "LE only" clause.

I have one, but it took some serious searching to find someone who would sell to me.
It fits very nicely in the side pocket of Carhartt work pants. Nestled next to the Leatherman and utility knife.

 

[TheGerman]

You'd laugh at the number of Robbery calls I took working downtown after somebody got ripped off buying or selling drugs.

Today, there's cameras everywhere. If you think you're just going to crack a couple skulls (even deservedly) and disappear into the ether you're going to be disappointed.

You also look guilty by fleeing. Not saying it's right, or that I agree with any of it. Just politely disagreeing with your gray area theory.

You seem pretty capable, I doubt one thug is in for anything but an ass beating if he fucks with ze German.

If there's more than one, now the gun is justified and they shouldn't have brought fists to a gunfight.

I won't harp, just saying I don't think it's a good idea. That's all. What do I know

I get your point. There is no cut/dry scenerio short of 'guy came at me with a knife/gun'. My suggesting a collapsable baton isn't instead of a firearm, but as a tool to be used if you think the situation wouldn't be enough for using a firearm, yet you're not wanting to wait around until it does.

It's the same premise as to why you probably have a baton, mace and a tazer when you're on duty. Same line of thinking.

No, I dont think (or imagine myself) running around clubbing people and running off into the night. But with alot of these situations, you defend yourself, you get away. Using a firearm in the same situation paints you into a lot of corners afterwards. But, we do agree there is a time to use the firearm.

And I'm not huge or anything lol I'm 6 foot, 180. Just like most of the SOC guys, we all look like hockey players with our shirts off, not Rambo and a 12 pack and 30 inch biceps I always followed the mantra that an instrutor had after we did line training in that, we've 'accomplished' learning these skills and if we ever find ourselves needing to employ them, we are more fucked than we can imagine. Not because we're some sort of 'deadly weapon' but instead, because the situation has gotten THAT bad and you have no advantage.

But honestly, les say from your professional knowledge; 2 guys zero in on someone. Noone has a weapon that is observed. They both attempt to get around you/sucker punch you/knock you over. You're saying using a firearm to shoot them would be justified? This example is where I'm hung up on that it wouldn't as neither are armed.

Regardless its good to run through these situations as I'm sure alot of people with a CCW have 10 different reactions to the same scenerio.

 

[Jscb1b]

What about brass knuckles?

 

[TheGerman]

What about brass knuckles?

Arent those illegal like everywhere?

Plus they require you to get even closer to someone than a baton.

 

[TxWelder35]

I get your point. There is no cut/dry scenerio short of 'guy came at me with a knife/gun'. My suggesting a collapsable baton isn't instead of a firearm, but as a tool to be used if you think the situation wouldn't be enough for using a firearm, yet you're not wanting to wait around until it does.

It's the same premise as to why you probably have a baton, mace and a tazer when you're on duty. Same line of thinking.

No, I dont think (or imagine myself) running around clubbing people and running off into the night. But with alot of these situations, you defend yourself, you get away. Using a firearm in the same situation paints you into a lot of corners afterwards. But, we do agree there is a time to use the firearm.

And I'm not huge or anything lol I'm 6 foot, 180. Just like most of the SOC guys, we all look like hockey players with our shirts off, not Rambo and a 12 pack and 30 inch biceps I always followed the mantra that an instrutor had after we did line training in that, we've 'accomplished' learning these skills and if we ever find ourselves needing to employ them, we are more fucked than we can imagine. Not because we're some sort of 'deadly weapon' but instead, because the situation has gotten THAT bad and you have no advantage.

But honestly, les say from your professional knowledge; 2 guys zero in on someone. Noone has a weapon that is observed. They both attempt to get around you/sucker punch you/knock you over. You're saying using a firearm to shoot them would be justified? This example is where I'm hung up on that it wouldn't as neither are armed.

Regardless its good to run through these situations as I'm sure alot of people with a CCW have 10 different reactions to the same scenerio.

Two guys trying to mug you is 10/10 grounds for lethal force. One guy trying time attack you is justified deadly force.

“Judge he was trying to attack me, if he’s able to knock me out who knows what he would have done to me, I was in fear for my life”

To me that is easier to justify than, “no judge I was t in fear for my life so I just beat the defendant with a baton breaking his arm and fracturing his skull because he looked scary”

 

[Jscb1b]

Ok on the knuckles. What length baton? They show 16 to 26 inches.

 

[goosed]

You're in a situation where you're weapon fighting in close proximity with baton while your firearm stays on your hip because you're more scared of some woke judge than the attacking force that caused you to need a weapon in the first place?

Nah... if I'm really in a situation where I can't deescalate and instead need to escalate it to a weapon fight. I'm no longer playing any games and I'm going straight to the firearm.

If the situation is really serious enough to need a weapon a low carry of a firearm is a far better shield even before it gets pointed at anyone than some stupid baton. I'll take my chances of decent plea deal in court if need be as I don't take pulling a firearm lightly, so when it does come out any consequences on the back side will be never be as hazardous as the force(s) that me caused me to draw in the first place.

That's just me though, you do you.

 

[pmclaine]

Refreshing.

As a poor I expected a paywall to read Germans suggestions.

I think I can actually afford this advice and have the gear available.

Does a Condor expanding baton count?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Do they make one with a removable compass on the end, and a place to store emergency fishing gear inside... 'just in case'?

All of the 'GOOD' knives have that, you know.

 

[pmclaine]

Side note........No one lives life in constant Condition Red.

I leave the house with the knowledge a gun is the most useless thing I'm carrying.

I don't go places where I think, "I'm going to need a gun."

First step in my plan is ......get away with family intact and having not attracted the attention of anyone.

 

[TxWelder35]

Refreshing.

As a poor I expected a paywall to read Germans suggestions.

I think I can actually afford this advice and have the gear available.

Does a Condor expanding baton count?

Only if it’s in a condor carrier on a condor vest

 

[Jscb1b]

Refreshing.

As a poor I expected a paywall to read Germans suggestions.

I think I can actually afford this advice and have the gear available.

Does a Condor expanding baton count?

Damn poores.

 

[roostercogburn98]

So we need to start a petition to ban skinny jeans. I thought I was the only one that hates them shits.

 

[scotty2hotty]

I get your point. There is no cut/dry scenerio short of 'guy came at me with a knife/gun'. My suggesting a collapsable baton isn't instead of a firearm, but as a tool to be used if you think the situation wouldn't be enough for using a firearm, yet you're not wanting to wait around until it does.

It's the same premise as to why you probably have a baton, mace and a tazer when you're on duty. Same line of thinking.

No, I dont think (or imagine myself) running around clubbing people and running off into the night. But with alot of these situations, you defend yourself, you get away. Using a firearm in the same situation paints you into a lot of corners afterwards. But, we do agree there is a time to use the firearm.

And I'm not huge or anything lol I'm 6 foot, 180. Just like most of the SOC guys, we all look like hockey players with our shirts off, not Rambo and a 12 pack and 30 inch biceps I always followed the mantra that an instrutor had after we did line training in that, we've 'accomplished' learning these skills and if we ever find ourselves needing to employ them, we are more fucked than we can imagine. Not because we're some sort of 'deadly weapon' but instead, because the situation has gotten THAT bad and you have no advantage.

But honestly, les say from your professional knowledge; 2 guys zero in on someone. Noone has a weapon that is observed. They both attempt to get around you/sucker punch you/knock you over. You're saying using a firearm to shoot them would be justified? This example is where I'm hung up on that it wouldn't as neither are armed.

Regardless its good to run through these situations as I'm sure alot of people with a CCW have 10 different reactions to the same scenerio.

Kimber Pepper Blaster It's a two shot watch videos on youtube, you would rather get shot by a gun that one of these.

 

[Nik H]

Side note........No one lives life in constant Condition Red.

I leave the house with the knowledge a gun is the most useless thing I'm carrying.

I don't go places where I think, "I'm going to need a gun."

First step in my plan is ......get away with family intact and having not attracted the attention of anyone.

My strategy as well...

My sidearm is a last resort item. My knife is probably the most useful thing I carry.

 

[SilentStalkr]

QUOTE="TheGerman, post: 8705066, member: 33717"]
I get your point. There is no cut/dry scenerio short of 'guy came at me with a knife/gun'. My suggesting a collapsable baton isn't instead of a firearm, but as a tool to be used if you think the situation wouldn't be enough for using a firearm, yet you're not wanting to wait around until it does.

It's the same premise as to why you probably have a baton, mace and a tazer when you're on duty. Same line of thinking.

No, I dont think (or imagine myself) running around clubbing people and running off into the night. But with alot of these situations, you defend yourself, you get away. Using a firearm in the same situation paints you into a lot of corners afterwards. But, we do agree there is a time to use the firearm.

And I'm not huge or anything lol I'm 6 foot, 180. Just like most of the SOC guys, we all look like hockey players with our shirts off, not Rambo and a 12 pack and 30 inch biceps I always followed the mantra that an instrutor had after we did line training in that, we've 'accomplished' learning these skills and if we ever find ourselves needing to employ them, we are more fucked than we can imagine. Not because we're some sort of 'deadly weapon' but instead, because the situation has gotten THAT bad and you have no advantage.

But honestly, les say from your professional knowledge; 2 guys zero in on someone. Noone has a weapon that is observed. They both attempt to get around you/sucker punch you/knock you over. You're saying using a firearm to shoot them would be justified? This example is where I'm hung up on that it wouldn't as neither are armed.

Regardless its good to run through these situations as I'm sure alot of people with a CCW have 10 different reactions to the same scenerio.

as long as you can convince people that you reasonably believed there was an imminent threat of serious bodily injury then I think you’re in the clear unless you’re somewhere that you have a duty to retreat if you reasonably believed you could do so safely

I don’t necessarily think this is a “legal” problem in the sense that there is any sort of complicated “legal” issue that needs to be answered or is unsettled. It’s more of a fact issue or an evidentiary issue.

It’s more of an evidentiary issue in that how do you convince the law enforcement officer, prosecutor, and potentially jury of the above
[/QUOTE]

To me this is no easy task and it waters down your ability to use or have the 2A I the first place, so much so that it comes to a point where someone needs to define whether we have this right or not and under what circumstances.

I know nobody wants to hear that, but imo, if you are outnumbered, backed into an alley and are getting the shit beat out of you then you should be able to use your firearm or whatever necessary to protect yourself. You have no idea how bad a group of thugs attacking you are actually going to beat you. Are they going to give you some love taps and rob you or are they going to kill you? Once it starts you have no idea when it’s going to end or if they aren’t going to kill you and as such are justified in using deadly force to make it stop. Period. The end. You should not have to prove that the threat was enough when there were multiple attackers.

Again, how does the prosecutor prove that you knew you wouldn’t be killed? You see I think you should be able to use your 2A rights without fear of any kind of recourse, within reason. Multiple assailants in a back alley qualifies as reason enough. Someone trying to run you over with a car, reason enough. I can go on. Nobody wants to hear it but at some point someone has to define the use otherwise innocent people are going to continue to go to jail for exercising their rights and gang violence is going to continue to escalate until there are repercussions for their actions. We are seeing the 2A being more and more watered down while blatant thugism is getting more and more protected. That’s backwards and leads to the further downfall of society.

 

[P-Squared]

No.

How are you going to carry around all your bitches and loot?

If @isofahunter has to carry around his bitches and loot in a wheelbarrow, then as you would say, 'He can go be poor somewhere else'

 

[Mike_Honcho]

IMHO that grey area exists for a reason and is different for every person and every situation. Adding non lethal and thinking it allows them to push further into the grey probably gets one into more trouble faster than it should.

Grey area is probably best covered by being 15% body fat or less, having thrown hands and rolled a bunch of times, having a sense of humor and a strong ability to communicate.

I could be wrong.