Pulling bullets? Will it change neck tension?

[wyosniper]

i have a question I been experimenting with a load and really got it where I want, my question is can I pull all the bullets I have and run a expander mandrel in the old cases, and then run it through my full length bushing die again and it have a new nice neck tension for my new seating depth? I will be moving the seating depth up and changing the primer also. Thanks

 

[Rob01]

If you are just adjusting seating depth then no need to pull the bullet fully. Just pull it a little and reseat to the length you want.

 

[domdoc]

If you use an inertial (hammer-like) bullet puller, whack it a couple of times to lengthen the seating depth, then reseat to the desired depth. If a bullet comes out, pour the powder back in and seat the bullet. If you use a collet bullet puller, the bullet will be damaged by the puller, in which case you will have to pull and discard the bullet, then seat a new bullet to the desired depth. Either way, you do not need to resize if you are going to shoot these cartridges single-loaded. In fact, they will likely be very consistent with regard to neck tension. I have done this to sized cases before priming or loading, to make neck tension more consistent. It's just a pain. What I do now is size the neck with a Lee collet/mandrel die, then run an expander mandrel down the necks. That results in a bit more neck tension, certainly not excessive, and very good consistency. If you're going to change the primer, go ahead and shoot these, then change the primer component of the load, and compare the two. Some push out live primers, but I don't recommend it, and I've never done it, because I don't want any accidents. Sometimes your first accident causes irreparable damage.

 

[Milo 2.5]

If you use an inertial (hammer-like) bullet puller, whack it a couple of times to lengthen the seating depth, then reseat to the desired depth. If a bullet comes out, pour the powder back in and seat the bullet. If you use a collet bullet puller, the bullet will be damaged by the puller, in which case you will have to pull and discard the bullet, then seat a new bullet to the desired depth. Either way, you do not need to resize if you are going to shoot these cartridges single-loaded. In fact, they will likely be very consistent with regard to neck tension. I have done this to sized cases before priming or loading, to make neck tension more consistent. It's just a pain. What I do now is size the neck with a Lee collet/mandrel die, then run an expander mandrel down the necks. That results in a bit more neck tension, certainly not excessive, and very good consistency. If you're going to change the primer, go ahead and shoot these, then change the primer component of the load, and compare the two. Some push out live primers, but I don't recommend it, and I've never done it, because I don't want any accidents. Sometimes your first accident causes irreparable damage.

You should really revisit most of what you said here, first, a collet puller wont ruin a bullet if set right, esp the Hornady model. 2nd, if you are shooting for accuracy, if you pull a bullet, your neck tension has been compromised, you more or less have run the largest expander made for that caliber through your neck, re-tension the neck if pulling bullets.
As for decapping live primers, a lot of people do, myself included and if common sense, not ramming and jamming, most likely done without incident, but it is his choice. I've also reused decapped live primers and never noticed a difference.

 

[Rob01]

I have moved bullets longer with a kinetic bullet puller and it does not effect the accuracy or neck tension any more so then you did seating the bullet into the case. You aren't twisting it back and forth or prying it out and stretching the neck. It's sliding out as it slid in when seating.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I've found if I seat them long an leave them there for awhile, (week or so), then re-seat deeper to my required depth just before a match, the load shoots better for me. It seems to even out the neck tension better than anything else.

 

[Fursniper]

I've found if I seat them long an leave them there for awhile, (week or so), then re-seat deeper to my required depth just before a match, the load shoots better for me. It seems to even out the neck tension better than anything else.

An expander mandrel will do the same thing without the wait.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

An expander mandrel will do the same thing without the wait.

I've not found that to be true, because of the cold weld that takes place between the copper an brass after a few days.

 

[domdoc]

Whether you can collet-pull the bullets without detriment will likely not help the OP, unless you can show him how you do it. His first attempts at that will most likely not be like your most recent attempt, so I recommend that he do it another way. I appreciate the hint by a later poster about the type of collet puller. That will make a difference. The OP is going to do whatever he wants. As for pulling a bullet compromising neck tension and subsequent accuracy, my experience does not support that concern. However, I still prefer to load the way I mentioned, with the collet/mandrel neck die followed by the Sinclair expander mandrel, just to test the consistency, and loosen any that feel too tight. Then those only get single-loaded, due to light neck tension. You are correct that we should all revisit our preconceived notions on a regular basis. It's just good advice. This is all for the benefit of the OP, since me, Milo 2.5, and Rob01 already have our processes like we want them. I have also heard shooters doing what Gunfighter says about long-seating, then finish-seating just before a match. Some real successful people have done that. I'm too lazy. And I'm also likely to forget to seat them. Don't have to worry about that any more, since I don't shoot any more competitions, just bull-shooting.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/neck-tension-bullet-seating-and-the-time-factor/

 

[Rob01]

Yeah not sure I buy the whole neck tension changing with time. I do mass brass prep and some of my brass can and has sat for years and when loaded shot just as good as it always has.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I had pulled some 300wm brass that was 5-6 times shot an never annealed, pulling the bullets required effort. I had always resized the necks afterwards. Then one day I just re-seated the bullets w/o re-sizing and the re-seating effort was way less than new brass. So I grabbed a hand full of old loads and a hand full of re-seated same loads and found the re-seated loads were between 25-30% tighter groups on average. It was later on I tried the long seat, then re-seat to proper depth and that produced the same results. Try pulling a bullet that has set for a month vs a bullet that was just seated using a trigger spring scale on the press arm. I think this is another reason some bench rest guys load at the match/bench.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I have moved bullets longer with a kinetic bullet puller and it does not effect the accuracy or neck tension any more so then you did seating the bullet into the case. You aren't twisting it back and forth or prying it out and stretching the neck. It's sliding out as it slid in when seating.

I've done this more than I care to admit also, you should mention punching the bullet in the 2nd go requires a little more finesse as seat depth gets harder to control,

 

[domdoc]

Yeah not sure I buy the whole neck tension changing with time. I do mass brass prep and some of my brass can and has sat for years and when loaded shot just as good as it always has.

I accept the neck tension change over time to a certain extent, but like Rob01, I have sized cases and let them sit for a very long time, well over a year, before loading. When I sized them, they all had a consistent feel when checking tension with the mandrel. When I loaded them (they usually sit in the garage in Texas, so they get hot, but not very cold), about 1/2 of them retain the original tension, and the other half are tighter than when they were first sized. They are all the same brand of case, usually the same year of manufacture. Being a total heretic, some of my cases even have turned necks, and I throw them in with the rest, when they are sized as I noted in a previous post. The tension on the neck-turned brass stored like this also is about 1/2 the same as when sized, and 1/2 tighter than when sized. I run a mandrel down them all to check neck tension prior to loading, then run the mandrel down the necks of the tight ones enough times for them to loosen up equal to the other group of cases. After that, when loaded and shot, all cases (loose neck, tight neck resized with mandrel, and all the ones that were turned) go to the same POI, with group size unaffected by variations between any of the cases. I do not let them sit long before shooting them, since I usually load them in preparation for shooting the next day. YMMV. I think perhaps the OP has gone into a coma, though.

 

[Yondering]

I've not found that to be true, because of the cold weld that takes place between the copper an brass after a few days.

The cold weld bit is interesting and what you've shared makes sense, but there are other ways to avoid it if you understand why cold weld happens.

Do you tumble your brass in stainless pins, like so many people are doing now?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The cold weld bit is interesting and what you've shared makes sense, but there are other ways to avoid it if you understand why cold weld happens.

Do you tumble your brass in stainless pins, like so many people are doing now?

I tried it but switched back to walnut for cleaning and ground corncob for removing case lube.

 

[Yondering]

I tried it but switched back to walnut for cleaning and ground corncob for removing case lube.

That's a good thing IMO.

Something that might be worth trying - use corncob with Dillon case polish and a little odorless mineral spirits, and add a little car wax in there too. The cases will look clean, but won't be that squeaky labratory clean that results in cold weld. It seems that in a lot of cases, the stainless pin cleaning systems are bad about this because they clean too well.

If you don't already know, for cold weld to happen both surfaces have to be very clean, along with being smooth and under pressure (both of which we get by default in a loaded bullet neck). Adding some sort of intentional contamination (like a faint trace of wax) between the surfaces should eliminate it. Seems to work for me anyway. Maybe you're already getting a trace of case lube in the necks the way you do it though?

 

[mdmp5]

The cold weld theory just doesn't make any sense to me at all, in terms of accuracy. I have shot tight groups with all sorts of ammo regardless of when it was pressed. However, I am talking about discernible difference, where I wasn't measuring the difference.

What needs to be done is a randomized control trial to sort this out, rather than methods which impose multiple sources of bias into the equation.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I dip the bullet in motor mica before seating now, an that seems to correct the issue. When I have really hard necks (that should have been annealed) I find the long seat then re-seat works good, an produces much better groups, almost as good as new brass, w/o all the extra work.

 

[Yondering]

The cold weld theory just doesn't make any sense to me at all, in terms of accuracy. I have shot tight groups with all sorts of ammo regardless of when it was pressed. However, I am talking about discernible difference, where I wasn't measuring the difference.

What needs to be done is a randomized control trial to sort this out, rather than methods which impose multiple sources of bias into the equation.

Cold weld is not a theory, it's a real thing that has even been used in some industrial applications. Whether it affects accuracy or not might be a theory, but with so many other variables in play, it might have an effect sometimes but not others.

 

[mdmp5]

Cold weld is not a theory, it's a real thing that has even been used in some industrial applications. Whether it affects accuracy or not might be a theory, but with so many other variables in play, it might have an effect sometimes but not others.

I meant it in the context of affecting accuracy as a theory, not actual cold welding

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I meant it in the context of affecting accuracy as a theory, not actual cold welding

I'm in the camp that see group size on Targets as fact.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Yeah not sure I buy the whole neck tension changing with time. I do mass brass prep and some of my brass can and has sat for years and when loaded shot just as good as it always has.

it absolutely happens and its absolutely real

 

[Rob01]

it absolutely happens and its absolutely real

Never seen it in the tens of thousands of cases I have sized and prepped and let set before loading. Guess I am lucky.

 

[wyosniper]

Thanks for the answers

 

[TripleBull]

I don't doubt that different handloading processes - like how the brass is cleaned and/or lubed - can result in differences in adhesion between brass and a bullet. And time can be a key variable in adhesion. BUT: industrial cold weld involves very clean surfaces, in vacuum, under very high pressure.

 

[spife7980]

Never seen it in the tens of thousands of cases I have sized and prepped and let set before loading. Guess I am lucky.

The difference being empty brass sitting and loaded ammo sitting. It's the copper bullet and zinc in the brass that causes the galvanic corrosion. I thought it was electrolysis but googles telling me otherwise.

 

[supercorndogs]

The difference being empty brass sitting and loaded ammo sitting. It's the copper bullet and zinc in the brass that causes the galvanic corrosion. I thought it was electrolysis but googles telling me otherwise.

Yea, electrolysis is what happens in a cooling system for an engine, when the antifreeze looses its alkaline reserve, and becomes acidic. Then the dissimilar metals in the engine and radiator begin to act like a battery with the acid solution. I have seen a radiator making as many as 4V. This speeds up corrosion, the main culprit being the liners in big diesel engines. You don't see it much anymore, the problems from it anyway.

 

[spife7980]

Yea, electrolysis is what happens in a cooling system for an engine, when the antifreeze looses its alkaline reserve, and becomes acidic. Then the dissimilar metals in the engine and radiator begin to act like a battery with the acid solution. I have seen a radiator making as many as 4V. This speeds up corrosion, the main culprit being the liners in big diesel engines. You don't see it much anymore, the problems from it anyway.

Yep, back when I did AC work for my father in high school it was called electrolysis because its the two dissimilar metals with one pulling electrons off of the other causing the other (copper) to corrode but I think that may be because it was in the presence of the refrigerant and household cleaners which contribute greatly to the deterioration of the coils inside, Im reading true electrolysis requires the presence of a liquid/acid as you stated.

This rifle brass issue is dry so the galvanic or bimetallic corrosion is the more appropriate terminology.

Regardless of semantics I cant verify the effect on target personally but I can say that Ive pulled old factory rounds apart that are corroded after a few years but Ive never compared results on target of when new vs old. I never let ammo I load or intend to shoot sit around that long. I am skeptical of the tangible effect after only a few weeks time though.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Yea, electrolysis is what happens in a cooling system for an engine, when the antifreeze looses its alkaline reserve, and becomes acidic. Then the dissimilar metals in the engine and radiator begin to act like a battery with the acid solution. I have seen a radiator making as many as 4V. This speeds up corrosion, the main culprit being the liners in big diesel engines. You don't see it much anymore, the problems from it anyway.

The liners in diesel engines were not pitting from electrolysis, they were pitting do to implosion of steam bubbles. Coolant water was not touching the liner on the heavy force side during the firing stroke, 100% of the time. Cummins engine company spent just over a million bucks getting to the bottom of the pits. Water hardness was the only culprit. Remember when a diesel engine with wet liners is running every part bolted or forceably clamped is moving in all directions. On the old NTC engines you could put a 0.005 feeler Gage under the heads (metal to metal) while it was running, but not so when it was not, no matter the engine temp. Dry liner engines like Mack, an dry liner 2 stroke Detroit's plus some other Rice an Euro engines never had that issue. Increasing the water pump pressure to greater than 40psi stops it as well, but 40psi an up creates other issues, so water treatment was the cheapest/easiest way to go. Liner coatings (which worked will)were tried as well, but drove the price way up, on a re-build/overhaul. After determining the issue most mfg's offered either a charged or none charged water filter. Like everything else folks went overboard with the charging, which caused leaks to appear, so then they came out with coolant test kits, and most under/over issues went away.

 

[supercorndogs]

Yep, back when I did AC work for my father in high school it was called electrolysis because its the two dissimilar metals with one pulling electrons off of the other causing the other (copper) to corrode but I think that may be because it was in the presence of the refrigerant and household cleaners which contribute greatly to the deterioration of the coils inside, Im reading true electrolysis requires the presence of a liquid/acid as you stated.

This rifle brass issue is dry so the galvanic or bimetallic corrosion is the more appropriate terminology.

Regardless of semantics I cant verify the effect on target personally but I can say that Ive pulled old factory rounds apart that are corroded after a few years but Ive never compared results on target of when new vs old. I never let ammo I load or intend to shoot sit around that long. I am skeptical of the tangible effect after only a few weeks time though.

I was not aware electrolysis could happen in a refrigeration system. I have seen the results from bullets cold welding as well.

 

[Rob01]

The difference being empty brass sitting and loaded ammo sitting. It's the copper bullet and zinc in the brass that causes the galvanic corrosion. I thought it was electrolysis but googles telling me otherwise.

That's why I was quite clear in my posts that it wasn't loaded.

 

[spife7980]

That's why I was quite clear in my posts that it wasn't loaded.

And the other people were clear in discussing loaded but yet there was still a back and forth...

 

[Rob01]

And the other people were clear in discussing loaded but yet there was still a back and forth...

And if you look at the article linked it was what I was answering. It mentioned brass sized weeks before and then seated later and sized closer and neck tension being different. Not seated and then reseating for an different OAL.

"James Phillips discovered that time is a critical factor in neck tension. James loaded two sets of 22 Dasher brass. Each had been sized with the SAME bushing, however the first group was sized two weeks before loading, whereas the second group was neck-sized just the day before. James noticed immediately that the bullet seating effort was not the same for both sets of cases — not even close."

 

[Milo 2.5]

And if you look at the article linked it was what I was answering. It mentioned brass sized weeks before and then seated later and sized closer and neck tension being different. Not seated and then reseating for an different OAL.

"James Phillips discovered that time is a critical factor in neck tension. James loaded two sets of 22 Dasher brass. Each had been sized with the SAME bushing, however the first group was sized two weeks before loading, whereas the second group was neck-sized just the day before. James noticed immediately that the bullet seating effort was not the same for both sets of cases — not even close."

In retrospect, the op asked if he needed to re-tension his necks if a bullet were to be pulled, he wanted to decap and switch primers at the same time. You reinvented the wheel on the first response, now we're into cold welding or fusion in a fucking vacuum.
This reloading form should really be named "dumbass advice section"

 

[Rob01]

I didn't link the article so save the wise ass comments. I just posted my opinion of it from my experience. I also told him my experience with readjusting a loaded round earlier in the post. I have done that with my loaded ammo and with factory ammo with no difference in accuracy.

So so there was no reinventing the wheel from my end and no dumbass advice given either.

 

[Milo 2.5]

my end and no dumbass advice given either.

Did not single you out on that aspect, it was a statement in general on the reloading section, every post an argument in the making. I thought I somewhat agreed with you on semi pulling and reseating bullets, it eliminates the need to re-tension necks.

 

[Rob01]

Figured seeing as you quoted me you were speaking to me and not making a general statement.

 

[Milo 2.5]

No. we're usually in some sort of mutual agreement, common sense does still play a part in this stuff.

 

[Yondering]

Did not single you out on that aspect, it was a statement in general on the reloading section, every post an argument in the making. I thought I somewhat agreed with you on semi pulling and reseating bullets, it eliminates the need to re-tension necks.

I think you've got a pretty solid point. Seems like everybody wants to answer the question they think should have been asked, instead of what was actually asked. At least every other thread here seems to take that direction eventually. It really makes one question the credibility of the people answering at way.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Man; I tried all kinds of methods to get on top of neck tension, and none of them ever performed in a predictable manner. I finally concluded that:

A) whenever you do something to brass it work hardens, and if it's the neck, the seating tension will be neither the same nor consistent, so trying to control neck tension is like shooting at a moving target. Some do, I don't, and for my purposes, annealing is just another headache.

B), I shoot SAAMI chambers exclusively, so a lot of the neck worship mantras are superfluous to me.

C), there is a certain amount of additional accuracy derived from all the neck worship mantras. The way I shoot, it's wasted effort anyway. I hit what I aim at, I just don't have any real reason to obsess about it.

Greg