Night Vision Pulsar XG 50 Drops

[swinestalker]

12 micron bae 640 core with internal recording and WiFi, PIP. 3x native mag, 6k price. Thoughts?

 

[MarinePMI]

Man, these BAE cores are becoming like tribbles...they're everywhere!

 

[avidflyer]

compared to the China skeet??...

 

[wigwamitus]

Not a BAE "Core" ... read the fine print ... says "BAE Sensor" ... and sensor != core ...

Now they want you to THINK a sensor = core ... but not the case !

 

[samson7x]

Not a BAE "Core" ... read the fine print ... says "BAE Sensor" ... and sensor != core ...

Now they want you to THINK a sensor = core ... but not the case !

That’s what I thought

Will you describe the difference in layman’s terms?

 

[wigwamitus]

Well at a high level ... the sensor/microbolometer receives the inbound "information" thru the lens ... regarding the temperature and emissivity of objects in the surrounding environment. Special materials in the sensor then convert that "information" into electronic data. The sensor then passes that data to the image processor (the core) which converts that data into an image which is then made available to the controller unit of the thermal. The controller unit, interfaces to the buttons, the power module and the display and manages the whole unit, but then passes the signal to the display so we can see it.

I couldn't find a nice simple article that describes this process, though I have seen some. If I find one, I'll post it. But reading about microbolometers will get you started.

 

[Namekagon]

Not a BAE "Core" ... read the fine print ... says "BAE Sensor" ... and sensor != core ...

Now they want you to THINK a sensor = core ... but not the case !

You beat me by 1 minute!

 

[wigwamitus]

Please dive in and join the party !!

 

[Namekagon]

I was gonna ask the question you answered.

I think this is an exciting offering. I was just telling someone TODAY that I didn't understand why you could buy a 640 thermal with 1.6x base magnification for 4k, but nobody offered one with 3-4x base mag unless you spent Halo or Trijicon money. Then I saw this dropped. Still 6k, but that's still alot better price than the other offerings.

 

[Namekagon]

We've been looking for a thermal unit with a little more base mag for coyote hunting, but wanted to keep the cost around 4-5k. This one would still be a stretch, but before this there was nothing close to our price range with a 640 sensor and minimum 3x mag.

 

[wigwamitus]

Used Armasight 640 Zeues ... and their newer Cousins the AGM FLIR cored Zeus-ishes will get you there without having to go Chynah ...

AGM PYTHON TS75-640 | AGM Global Vision

AGM PYTHON TS75-640 from the AGM Global Vision. ✔️Best Priced ✔️Excellent quality ✔️Fast shipping ✔️Easy Setup ✔️Order now!

www.agmglobalvision.com

==

Here's a Zeus Pro 100mm 640(30) for $5,900 shown price ... for instance ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Armasight-...542951&hash=item523a2a386f:g:bJoAAOSwkVlfLN1p

 

[wigwamitus]

Here's a post by Max over on vomitus.com ... on the topic of sensor != core ... don't forget to hold your nose if you go over there

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/...he-eye-/18-515357/?page=1&anc=bottom#i5368959

And here's the words ...

1. A sensor, aka Focal Plane Array (FPA) is a physical structure that consists of tiny resistors that change their resistivity as a function of temperature. This is it. Those temperature sensitive resistors are called micro-bolometers. There is a number of companies that make them here and around the world. The manufacturing process for sensors is not too complicated by modern standards and is very similar to the processes used in semiconductors manufacturing. As a result, they are relatively easy to reproduce. Secrets related to the structure are hard to keep because a powerful enough microscope will tell anybody knowledgeable in a field a lot about how they are built. That's the reason there are many thermal imaging _sensor_ manufacturers around the world (you know where the majority of semiconductor devices are coming from).

2. The "core" is a very specialized microcomputer and most importantly the software that runs on it. The core constantly takes measurements of the resistance of micro-resistors on the sensors (see #1) and produces the actual visible image based on those measurements. This process is quite complicated and core manufacturers treat it as extremely proprietary. This is where the real "know-how" is hidden. You may think about the "core" as a black box that gets some information from the sensor in and outputs an image that you see. However, the way this image is produced is "black magic" and nobody will ever talk to you about it. The difference between images from "good" and so-so cores can be drastic even if they use the same sensor as a "source".

To summarize, cores are the brains of the system and sensors are its eyes. Smart and not so smart "brains" may see the same picture (in our case the "picture" is information received from the sensor) but interpret it quite differently and produce quite different results.

 

[diggler1833]

Sooooooooo... Pulsar upgrades its 'eyes' and it costs an extra $1K per unit? As it was pointed out to me earlier by a friend; I doubt it costs 1/5 of the $100 going rate to produce an APS3 battery either.

Not a fan of the direction the company has taken in the last year.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Sooooooooo... Pulsar upgrades its 'eyes' and it costs an extra $1K per unit? As it was pointed out to me earlier by a friend; I doubt it costs 1/5 of the $100 going rate to produce an APS3 battery either.

Not a fan of the direction the company has taken in the last year.

All thermal companies have ridiculous margins, even after they pay for the core/sensor tech.... You'd be shocked at how many more would be on the market if you new the true costs, .. but capitalism is a thing and I support it.

 

[diggler1833]

Me too...and after my experience with the Thermion XP50 I'll choose to take my business elsewhere next time...margins aside.

One could say I was more surprised than anything about the new offering.

 

[DopeMan]

Well at a high level ... the sensor/microbolometer receives the inbound "information" thru the lens ... regarding the temperature and emissivity of objects in the surrounding environment. Special materials in the sensor then convert that "information" into electronic data. The sensor then passes that data to the image processor (the core) which converts that data into an image which is then made available to the controller unit of the thermal. The controller unit, interfaces to the buttons, the power module and the display and manages the whole unit, but then passes the signal to the display so we can see it.

I couldn't find a nice simple article that describes this process, though I have seen some. If I find one, I'll post it. But reading about microbolometers will get you started.

I'll add that the BAE sensor with Pulsar's proprietary core is the reason the XG50 achieves integrated video recording, Wi-Fi compatibility, manual focusing, auto calibration, etc. when competitors are not.

 

[BamaSE]

I just do not understand Pulsar.

So a few years ago they came out with the Trail. Which should have been a category killer except for this wee problem with retaining zero. Which they never admitted. But provided an algorithm that supposedly fixed the “problem” that must not be named. Full disclosure, I had a Trail that did not experience said problem but I am in South Alabama where we do not have large temp variations.....just Summer and Not Summer.

Then released the Thermion as a replacement. Which was pretty well received other than an inferior battery system. Then updated with the V2 this year that was supposedly even better (marketing wise).

Then hyped the release of their Trail 2 this year with a highly marketed new body material for some STRANGE and inexplicable reason (see lack of holding zero above). Which folks jumped on putting their hard earned money on as pre-sales since Shot Show.

Then boom......drop the XG round about the time folks are getting their Trail 2s. WTF. I am glad Pulsar is constantly innovating and updating, but this product has been in the pipeline for some time to be able to fulfill orders. I do not understand them staying mum. I have seen some fretting, cussing, and fussing amongst some Pulsar fans who had already upgraded to the Trail 2 (and have not received) and new model Thermions. They should be. Not the best way to build customer loyalty.

And just to add a little more insult to financial injury....the XG marketing seems to insinuate all other products are inferior. Dang. Basically ef you to all who have shelled out deposits or full payments for a Trail 2 and been waiting all these months for the next best Pulsar thang.

Just my .002 which I know is worthless. Stepping off my soapbox now

 

[MarinePMI]

I find it...curious that Pulsar announced the XG just a few days after NVision announced their new thermal offering. I'm not a big believer in coincidences...

 

[Max_R]

All thermal companies have ridiculous margins

I wish you were right.

 

[DopeMan]

I just do not understand Pulsar.

So a few years ago they came out with the Trail. Which should have been a category killer except for this wee problem with retaining zero. Which they never admitted. But provided an algorithm that supposedly fixed the “problem” that must not be named. Full disclosure, I had a Trail that did not experience said problem but I am in South Alabama where we do not have large temp variations.....just Summer and Not Summer.

Then released the Thermion as a replacement. Which was pretty well received other than an inferior battery system. Then updated with the V2 this year that was supposedly even better (marketing wise).

Then hyped the release of their Trail 2 this year with a highly marketed new body material for some STRANGE and inexplicable reason (see lack of holding zero above). Which folks jumped on putting their hard earned money on as pre-sales since Shot Show.

Then boom......drop the XG round about the time folks are getting their Trail 2s. WTF. I am glad Pulsar is constantly innovating and updating, but this product has been in the pipeline for some time to be able to fulfill orders. I do not understand them staying mum. I have seen some fretting, cussing, and fussing amongst some Pulsar fans who had already upgraded to the Trail 2 (and have not received) and new model Thermions. They should be. Not the best way to build customer loyalty.

And just to add a little more insult to financial injury....the XG marketing seems to insinuate all other products are inferior. Dang. Basically ef you to all who have shelled out deposits or full payments for a Trail 2 and been waiting all these months for the next best Pulsar thang.

Just my .002 which I know is worthless. Stepping off my soapbox now

I do understand were some might be frustrated with the release of the XG. There's simply no way to please everybody, it seems. The XG was released with availability to ease dealer pressures, especially with respect to consumers, considering most releases include months and months of waiting for dealers and consumers alike--products unveiled at SHOT Show aren't available for MONTHS. The Thermion has not become a replacement for the Trail but LRF was added to the Trail line and non-LRF Trails are no longer offered. To my knowledge there is no plan to stop producing Trail LRF models although Trail offerings do continue to evolve--case in point, Trail LRF to the TRAIL 2 LRF. This is the same for the Thermion model: XM models to XQ, XP models continue, and now we've added the XG model. Some are definitely migrating to the Thermion platform and buying XGs while others enjoy the longer battery life and LRF that our Trails provide and are staying put with their those.

As far as inferior, that is subjective isn't it? Honestly, an XG compared to other 640s and especially 384s are most definitely going to be superior. We can argue all day about who has better imaging--Pulsar, N-Vision, Trijicon, ATN--but to some extent that is also subjective. What can't be argued is the technology built into the Thermion XG, including the BAE sensor, Pulsar core and the features present as a result that competitors don't have, at a lower price point. Superior? Subjective. Premium performance and the bundled value to go with it, including our customer service if something does go sideways?
Yes, we do think the XG50, Trail XP50 LRF, Trail 2 XP50 LRF, helion 2 XP50, Accolade 2 LRF XP50 and all of our other thermal optics rock! With respect to the Trail 2 LRF, keep in mind that it also includes an extended battery life and LRF. Those who think those features are critically important, stay with the Trail. Me personally, Considering those features, I think the Trail 2 LRF XP50 and Thermion XG50 are on a pretty level playing field--do I want a 640/17 with longer battery life and LRF or do I want a 640/12 with lesser battery life (external rechargeable and internal rechargeable) and no LRF? Part of this plays on magnification, too. Some may believe the Trail 2 LRF XP50 is best for hog hunters while others will think the XG50 is best for predator hunting at longer ranges.

What we aren't is arrogant. What we don't do is bash brands--EVER--but sure, we'll compare specs, features, etc. and we strive to deliver truly feature-rich, premium performance optics and customer service people can rely upon. What we ARE... are hunters and shooters like the people writing and reading these comments. As far as price points, it's a good thing we aren't having this discussion 10-15 years ago. Today, I have day scopes that cost more than some thermals. We are at a point where people who save, prioritize, sell items, etc. do have realistic options and opportunities to own thermal technology without filing bankruptcy. Hell, back in my Marine Corps days, thermal was just about unicorn-level, now they're all over the place and are getting more and more affordable. What a great time we are living in with respect to thermal technology and it keeps getting better.

By the way, your .02 is far from worthless. I don't have a soapbox but I hope I've provided my own .02 in the positive spirit I intended and that it's received the same. Cheers!

 

[BamaSE]

I do understand were some might be frustrated with the release of the XG. There's simply no way to please everybody, it seems. The XG was released with availability to ease dealer pressures, especially with respect to consumers, considering most releases include months and months of waiting for dealers and consumers alike--products unveiled at SHOT Show aren't available for MONTHS. The Thermion has not become a replacement for the Trail but LRF was added to the Trail line and non-LRF Trails are no longer offered. To my knowledge there is no plan to stop producing Trail LRF models although Trail offerings do continue to evolve--case in point, Trail LRF to the TRAIL 2 LRF. This is the same for the Thermion model: XM models to XQ, XP models continue, and now we've added the XG model. Some are definitely migrating to the Thermion platform and buying XGs while others enjoy the longer battery life and LRF that our Trails provide and are staying put with their those.

As far as inferior, that is subjective isn't it? Honestly, an XG compared to other 640s and especially 384s are most definitely going to be superior. We can argue all day about who has better imaging--Pulsar, N-Vision, Trijicon, ATN--but to some extent that is also subjective. What can't be argued is the technology built into the Thermion XG, including the BAE sensor, Pulsar core and the features present as a result that competitors don't have, at a lower price point. Superior? Subjective. Premium performance and the bundled value to go with it, including our customer service if something does go sideways?
Yes, we do think the XG50, Trail XP50 LRF, Trail 2 XP50 LRF, helion 2 XP50, Accolade 2 LRF XP50 and all of our other thermal optics rock! With respect to the Trail 2 LRF, keep in mind that it also includes an extended battery life and LRF. Those who think those features are critically important, stay with the Trail. Me personally, Considering those features, I think the Trail 2 LRF XP50 and Thermion XG50 are on a pretty level playing field--do I want a 640/17 with longer battery life and LRF or do I want a 640/12 with lesser battery life (external rechargeable and internal rechargeable) and no LRF? Part of this plays on magnification, too. Some may believe the Trail 2 LRF XP50 is best for hog hunters while others will think the XG50 is best for predator hunting at longer ranges.

What we aren't is arrogant. What we don't do is bash brands--EVER--but sure, we'll compare specs, features, etc. and we strive to deliver truly feature-rich, premium performance optics and customer service people can rely upon. What we ARE... are hunters and shooters like the people writing and reading these comments. As far as price points, it's a good thing we aren't having this discussion 10-15 years ago. Today, I have day scopes that cost more than some thermals. We are at a point where people who save, prioritize, sell items, etc. do have realistic options and opportunities to own thermal technology without filing bankruptcy. Hell, back in my Marine Corps days, thermal was just about unicorn-level, now they're all over the place and are getting more and more affordable. What a great time we are living in with respect to thermal technology and it keeps getting better.

By the way, your .02 is far from worthless. I don't have a soapbox but I hope I've provided my own .02 in the positive spirit I intended and that it's received the same. Cheers!

Thank you for your comments, and most importantly responding......it is great to receive input from folks within the various companies of product discussed on this forum, and part of the uniqueness of SH. FWIW, I am far from a Pulsar basher, and currently run a Helion 2 which I recently acquired, and will purchase a used Accolade XP whenever I can find a good dealio. Why? Because for my purposes and hunting conditions, the rechargeable battery system and features such as Auto-NUC, mag level, and ease of use are hard to beat by any competitor. Me likey those very much in my scanners.

But, the purpose of my comments was to bring light to a sense of angst that can easily be found by reviewing the commentary regarding this announcement on various NV hunting platforms and groups. And the history of past product is real and well documented. And something Pulsar needs to be mindful of when developing and releasing new product. That angst is real and it is there, and it is not bashing the current new product, just the delivery and timing. Please learn from it and be better. Consider this forum your free existential R&D department and general feedback loop. Glad you are aboard the crazy train and along for the ride
Thanky.

 

[P&Y]

Dopeman, you sound sincere in your post and if you are, I will humbly ask you to reevaluate. Coming from the prospective of someone who did "save, prioritize, sell items" and generally sacrifice to own a thermal I can say knowingly selling products that do not function is not how fellow hunters and shooters should treat each other. A weapon sight that does not hold zero is not a "realistic" option nor an ethical one.

I will be he first to admit I am jaded but feel obligated to speak up when I read such hypocrisy because I know there are many other blue collar folks working overtime right now.

 

[rosterhouse]

12 micron bae 640 core with internal recording and WiFi, PIP. 3x native mag, 6k price. Thoughts?

I have to say that I was interested to learn that the simple fact is that you want the smallest sensor array possible to maximize detail at range.
So it is not so much about the core as it is the sensor. In my opinion, this puts the Tri Reap tech in the pulsar. Daddy Like.

 

[MarinePMI]

I have to say that I was interested to learn that the simple fact is that you want the smallest sensor array possible to maximize detail at range.
So it is not so much about the core as it is the sensor. In my opinion, this puts the Tri Reap tech in the pulsar. Daddy Like.

I think you don't fully understand how thermal sensors work. The sensor array is but a small part of gaining detail at range...

 

[rosterhouse]

I would not claim to be a expert. My only point is that when it comes to thermal sensors smaller is better. True?

 

[MarinePMI]

I would not claim to be a expert. My only point is that when it comes to thermal sensors smaller is better. True?

Not always.

 

[wigwamitus]

... My only point is that when it comes to thermal sensors smaller is better ...

In general, the concept of "better" requires context to have meaning.

With regard to thermals, the term "sensor" is generally used to mean the whole array of microbolometers. So, for example a 320x240 sensor has 1/4 of the number of microbolometers as a 640x480. If the sensor is exchanged and the lens remains the same, then the magnification will roughly double when the 320 sensor is substituted for the 640. This might be better for long distance viewing (versus hitting 2x digital on the 640 unit) ... but gives up field of view (FOV).

If a smaller pitch microbolometer is used, like a 12 micron versus a 17 micron but the number of pixels and lens remains the same, then the magnification will increase slightly though again the FOV will decrease.

But, "better" depends on the purpose for which the unit would be used. When performing "coop defense" around my chicken coop, I'm generally observing and shooting at under 100yds ... and FOV is king. But when overwatching calving cows out in the pastures, magnification is useful for PID, to ensure I can tell the difference between a calf and a yote.
"Better" depends on the requirements.

 

[1clicktrick]

Has anyone purchased one of these recently? Thoughts? Problems?