Night Vision PVS-31A vs PVS-31D

rlsmith1

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  • May 1, 2019
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    Anyone played with the PVS-31D? Looks to be Elbit’s response to the L3 31A. I thought all was the same except the tubes but that’s not true. 31D’s have independent power off for each pod, IR illuminator, adjustable diopters and a different battery cable location but also weigh about 2oz heavier.

    Anyone use the 31D’s? Reading between the lines it would seem Elbit may have some unfilmed competitor in the works?

    Here’s a video through a potato if anyone wants:
     
    Yes.

    The 31d has the Lemo connector in a place that doesn’t intrude on pod articulation. Having pods turn off when flipped up is kind of nice — no helmet splash. The focus range is quite huge — like I never fiddle with the objective piece once it’s set. The bikini covers and how they’re secured to the housing is quite nice. No need for perfect vision as it comes with adjustable diopters — it doesn’t care if you have astigmatism. Price point is better than 31a. The quality of tube that Elbit is putting out is exceptionally good, and their spot spec min spec is better than L3, and it shows.

    The only thing the 31a does better than the 31d, is Filmless. Been there done that — not a huge deal and you don’t have to worry about having shadows in your tube either. If it’s dark enough that one unit needs IR, they both do.

    Frankly, the 31d is a home run unit. Highly recommend.
     
    Last edited:
    Any update on which of these 31s is better over the last couple years? Considering both and looking to be swayed to one vs the other. How do the quality and service of both companies compare? Like the added features of the 31D. Like the simplicity and lighter weigh of the 31A. I'm much more familiar with L3H.
     
    So I use 31A’s at work but my personal set of nods at home are 31D’s

    I think theHorta gave a strong argument in favor of the D’s and I agree. He knows his nods to say the least lol.
    Anyways,

    Have seen a couple of 31A’s break, one of the arms that connect the pod to the bridge crack and the pod just flops around. I know if you’re buying them for personal use L3 offers a limited time warranty of some sort.

    For me the price + feature set of the 31D’s sealed the deal and that’s why I ended up with them.

    The only pros the 31A’s have are the filmless tubes are a touch better in low light and they’re a touch lighter than the D’s. Also, if you buy A’s it includes the ridiculously overpriced battery pack.

    A lot of guys go on and on about how good the image looks through the 31A’s but they usually only have PvS-14’s as a reference. I don’t think there’s any secret sauce in the 31A optics but who knows.

    The D’s have a better feature set as theHorta stated above, mainly the lemo port not interfering with pod articulation and the auto shutoff. The adjustable diopter doesn’t matter to me and the onboard ir illuminator doesn’t matter either. Keep in mind the battery pack for the D’s can be harder to find but you can check eBay for “surplus” battery packs for cheap lol.

    All that being said, the new Nocturn Industries aluminum housings (and the new Low Light Industries metal housing) look like they’ll be cheaper and comparative in weight and if I was buying today that’s what I’d go with. As long as it has manual gain + auto pod shutoff when articulated.
    Rambling over.
     
    So I use 31A’s at work but my personal set of nods at home are 31D’s

    I think theHorta gave a strong argument in favor of the D’s and I agree. He knows his nods to say the least lol.
    Anyways,

    Have seen a couple of 31A’s break, one of the arms that connect the pod to the bridge crack and the pod just flops around. I know if you’re buying them for personal use L3 offers a limited time warranty of some sort.

    For me the price + feature set of the 31D’s sealed the deal and that’s why I ended up with them.

    The only pros the 31A’s have are the filmless tubes are a touch better in low light and they’re a touch lighter than the D’s. Also, if you buy A’s it includes the ridiculously overpriced battery pack.

    A lot of guys go on and on about how good the image looks through the 31A’s but they usually only have PvS-14’s as a reference. I don’t think there’s any secret sauce in the 31A optics but who knows.

    The D’s have a better feature set as theHorta stated above, mainly the lemo port not interfering with pod articulation and the auto shutoff. The adjustable diopter doesn’t matter to me and the onboard ir illuminator doesn’t matter either. Keep in mind the battery pack for the D’s can be harder to find but you can check eBay for “surplus” battery packs for cheap lol.

    All that being said, the new Nocturn Industries aluminum housings (and the new Low Light Industries metal housing) look like they’ll be cheaper and comparative in weight and if I was buying today that’s what I’d go with. As long as it has manual gain + auto pod shutoff when articulated.
    Rambling over.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m not seeing anything from the Horta above in this thread. Am I missing something? I agree he seems like the yoda of NV/thermal around here. Also, my primary area of operations is going to be dark woods. Would that change the balance to favor filmless or even the new l3 super gain?
     
    [
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m not seeing anything from the Horta above in this thread. Am I missing something? I agree he seems like the yoda of NV/thermal around here. Also, my primary area of operations is going to be dark woods. Would that change the balance to favor filmless or even the new l3 super gain?

    Yeah I might have somehow confused theHorta and SkyScrapin. I blame the whiskey lol.

    So if extreme low light performance is the goal and money isn’t an object, then yeah, there is a noticeable difference in performance between high spec unfilmed and high spec elbit tubes. The performance delta isn’t massive but it is noticeable in those conditions, but as said above, you will reach the point of needing supplemental IR illum pretty rapidly in those types of environments. The supergain tubes were made with stuff like caves in mind and I can’t speak on those.

    I have heard that the 31D’s use a housing that’s shared with other European goggles.

    I think the best of both worlds would be L3 unfilmed tubes in a Nocturn ruggedized housing, but those housings are brand new and not a lot of reviews on them yet. If you do expect to be under thick tree cover at night and money isn’t an issue you may be better served with the L3 tubes, otherwise if you like the feature set of the 31D’s, don’t mind the 10% or so performance loss in very low light environments, and wanna save a couple thousand bucks, the 31D’s are a choice I haven’t been mad at.
     
    I believe this may be my first post!

    I purchased NV to use at work for felon apprehension on k9 tracks and other odds and ends where seeing in the dark on patrol gives me an advantage.

    I started with an Elbit PVS14 running 34ish SNR if I recall correctly. My first night messing around with it on one of our golf courses and I couldn't believe how much it sucked on a night with a full moon. A minute later I realized I had the daytime filter on...

    Anyway, I very quickly went from the PVS14 to a set of goggles. I was having trouble moving at speed with the PVS14 and I found that with ambient light, ie in a fairly urban setting, the image from the PVS14 being beamed into my right eye was jumbling itself up with the image my left eye was seeing.

    I purchased a set of BNVD 1431's with L3 unfilmed tubes running almost 37 SNR and 69K gain. One evening, on a SWAT callout, I was holding a perimeter spot in an alley behind the residence. One of my guys on the opposing end of the perimeter told me to "turn my light off". Turns out, he was looking at tube splash coming off of my helmet when I rolled the pods up in order to color PID someone who had exited their house. That made me really, really nervous. I am well aware of the fact that I do not exist in a war zone but you simply never know when it comes to domestic law enforcement work. After that evening I began shopping for a set of goggles with individual pod shut off.

    I realized I wanted the following in a set of goggles:

    Manual gain
    Independent pod shutoff
    Articulation (see above)
    Battery pack compatibility (you never know)
    AA battery

    After Shot Show 2023 I was fiending hard for the manticore housing. I would email Nocturn Industries every three months in the hopes that the housings were going to drop soon as I was planning on taking my L3 tubes and sticking them into that housing upon its release. The housing never came. Fast forward to March of 2024 and the housings are trickling out although I heard something about there being a recall? Perhaps that was the metal katana housing and i'm confusing the two. Absolutely nothing against Nocturn industries. I'd rather the system work right out of the gate rather than have issues. I firmly believe in the "when its done, its done" mantra. I'll buy it then.

    In October of 2023 I decided that I didn't want to wait any longer and I started shopping once again. My biggest hangup was going from an L3 unfilmed tube back to a lowly Elbit. After all, the internet says that unfilmed tubes are the "best" and everything else is shit. My only real factual datapoint was my PVS14 versus my L3 tubes. The Elbit tube that I have in my PVS14 does NOT perform as well as my L3 tubes in ultra low light scenarios.

    In October of 2023 I had literally ONE option that would give me what I wanted. The PVS31D.

    I spoke with Ryan at Apollo for two hours prior to purchasing.

    I ended up picking the specs that I wanted which aren't nearly as good as my L3 tubes but were good enough for me.

    Two days later I had the system in hand.

    I have been using this goggle system since October of 2023 and I am absolutely tickled pink.

    The BNVD 1431 housing is shit compared to what theon/elbit is putting out. You can feel the quality difference between the two units.

    Some highlights or comparison points:

    The 31D has all of its screws covered or sealed against the elements. I don't think the 1431 has anything like that. Having said that, my 1431 was used in absolute pouring rain quite a few times without an issue.

    The 31D has a VERY course battery cap which is AWESOME for throwing a battery in quickly when you grab your helmet and nods. I really, REALLY appreciate this. Especially in the dark. Also, you can cram the 31D's battery in either positive side up or down. The goggle doesn't care.

    The 31D pod articulation is seriously robust. It's very, very stiff without being too stiff. I really, really like the default tension that they've set.

    The 31D rubber caps are the best in the industry. They fold out of the way and can be put back on in an EXTREMELY fast manner. I really, really like these and wish more companies would follow suit.

    The 31D IPD stops are exceptional. Every time I would go to move a pod on my 1431's I would bump the IPD stop out of place. The 31D's stops simply don't move unless you deliberately move them.

    The 31D comes with course thread sacrificial objective covers. I dig it but i've never seen these covers sold separately. You cannot get a Tiffen filter on these things as they use proprietary glass up front and in the rear.

    The Elbit tubes are every bit as clear and effective as my L3 tubes. Whatever sauce Elbit is putting into their milspec tubes is certainly worth it. I am extremely happy with the performance I purchased and I really don't give a shit about specs. These goggles simply, work. I also have to add that when I got my L3 tubes, I bought them after looking at the data sheets and seeing that they were "free of spots". Upon receipt, my tubes had the "dark spots ok" box checked on the spec sheet and there was peppering in the tubes. I thought for a minute that perhaps the tubes had been switched, or they were assembled in an unclean environment but I was absolutely wrong. I come to find out that peppering in l3 tubes is quite common. My Elbit tubes are absolutely 100% pristine. There is ZERO peppering, dark spots or anything of the sort. They are absolutely, crystal clear.

    Here are the downsides to the 31D.

    The 31D does not use a lemo port. It uses a proprietary cable which no one makes an aftermarket solution for. You're either using the VERY expensive Elbit battery or nothing. For now. I believe a while ago, Steele Industries stated that they were planning on making a battery pack. I messaged them and they said they could make a custom cable that would work with the 31D. I never followed up as my 1431's battery pack existed mostly as a counterweight.

    The 31D does not articulate UP as much as my 1431's. They lay parallel to the brim of my helmet rather than folding up above the brim. It's a personal preference issue and not really an issue but I do wish they could articulate further up. The IPD stops and the Wilcox G24 prevent them from rotating up further. This is honestly, pretty trivial.

    Having said all of this. The latest crop of housings are manual gain, independent pod shut off housings that are WAY newer technology than the 31D housing. Some of these housings are modular like the LLI MH1 which is pretty darned cool. The Manticore housing that is trickling out is also going to be a hot contender. These two housings are super interesting because they're metal. IF i could have metal over polymer as my last desired item on my list, I would add that.

    It's not a deal breaker but I really do believe at some point I will break my 31d's. Not because they're fragile but because I break EVERYTHING.

    If you've got the money for it and you want a factory system, do it. Period.
     
    Last edited:
    From knowledge, PVS-31A is the L3Harris WP 2376+ FOM goggle. The 31B isn’t a thing afaik, the 31D is an entirely different goggle made my Elbit, more commonly called the 5032.
     
    I believe this may be my first post!

    I purchased NV to use at work for felon apprehension on k9 tracks and other odds and ends where seeing in the dark on patrol gives me an advantage.

    I started with an Elbit PVS14 running 34ish SNR if I recall correctly. My first night messing around with it on one of our golf courses and I couldn't believe how much it sucked on a night with a full moon. A minute later I realized I had the daytime filter on...

    Anyway, I very quickly went from the PVS14 to a set of goggles. I was having trouble moving at speed with the PVS14 and I found that with ambient light, ie in a fairly urban setting, the image from the PVS14 being beamed into my right eye was jumbling itself up with the image my left eye was seeing.

    I purchased a set of BNVD 1431's with L3 unfilmed tubes running almost 37 SNR and 69K gain. One evening, on a SWAT callout, I was holding a perimeter spot in an alley behind the residence. One of my guys on the opposing end of the perimeter told me to "turn my light off". Turns out, he was looking at tube splash coming off of my helmet when I rolled the pods up in order to color PID someone who had exited their house. That made me really, really nervous. I am well aware of the fact that I do not exist in a war zone but you simply never know when it comes to domestic law enforcement work. After that evening I began shopping for a set of goggles with individual pod shut off.

    I realized I wanted the following in a set of goggles:

    Manual gain
    Independent pod shutoff
    Articulation (see above)
    Battery pack compatibility (you never know)
    AA battery

    After Shot Show 2023 I was fiending hard for the manticore housing. I would email Nocturn Industries every three months in the hopes that the housings were going to drop soon as I was planning on taking my L3 tubes and sticking them into that housing upon its release. The housing never came. Fast forward to March of 2024 and the housings are trickling out although I heard something about there being a recall? Perhaps that was the metal katana housing and i'm confusing the two. Absolutely nothing against Nocturn industries. I'd rather the system work right out of the gate rather than have issues. I firmly believe in the "when its done, its done" mantra. I'll buy it then.

    In October of 2023 I decided that I didn't want to wait any longer and I started shopping once again. My biggest hangup was going from an L3 unfilmed tube back to a lowly Elbit. After all, the internet says that unfilmed tubes are the "best" and everything else is shit. My only real factual datapoint was my PVS14 versus my L3 tubes. The Elbit tube that I have in my PVS14 does NOT perform as well as my L3 tubes in ultra low light scenarios.

    In October of 2023 I had literally ONE option that would give me what I wanted. The PVS31D.

    I spoke with Ryan at Apollo for two hours prior to purchasing.

    I ended up picking the specs that I wanted which aren't nearly as good as my L3 tubes but were good enough for me.

    Two days later I had the system in hand.

    I have been using this goggle system since October of 2023 and I am absolutely tickled pink.

    The BNVD 1431 housing is shit compared to what theon/elbit is putting out. You can feel the quality difference between the two units.

    Some highlights or comparison points:

    The 31D has all of its screws covered or sealed against the elements. I don't think the 1431 has anything like that. Having said that, my 1431 was used in absolute pouring rain quite a few times without an issue.

    The 31D has a VERY course battery cap which is AWESOME for throwing a battery in quickly when you grab your helmet and nods. I really, REALLY appreciate this. Especially in the dark. Also, you can cram the 31D's battery in either positive side up or down. The goggle doesn't care.

    The 31D pod articulation is seriously robust. It's very, very stiff without being too stiff. I really, really like the default tension that they've set.

    The 31D rubber caps are the best in the industry. They fold out of the way and can be put back on in an EXTREMELY fast manner. I really, really like these and wish more companies would follow suit.

    The 31D IPD stops are exceptional. Every time I would go to move a pod on my 1431's I would bump the IPD stop out of place. The 31D's stops simply don't move unless you deliberately move them.

    The 31D comes with course thread sacrificial objective covers. I dig it but i've never seen these covers sold separately. You cannot get a Tiffen filter on these things as they use proprietary glass up front and in the rear.

    The Elbit tubes are every bit as clear and effective as my L3 tubes. Whatever sauce Elbit is putting into their milspec tubes is certainly worth it. I am extremely happy with the performance I purchased and I really don't give a shit about specs. These goggles simply, work. I also have to add that when I got my L3 tubes, I bought them after looking at the data sheets and seeing that they were "free of spots". Upon receipt, my tubes had the "dark spots ok" box checked on the spec sheet and there was peppering in the tubes. I thought for a minute that perhaps the tubes had been switched, or they were assembled in an unclean environment but I was absolutely wrong. I come to find out that peppering in l3 tubes is quite common. My Elbit tubes are absolutely 100% pristine. There is ZERO peppering, dark spots or anything of the sort. They are absolutely, crystal clear.

    Here are the downsides to the 31D.

    The 31D does not use a lemo port. It uses a proprietary cable which no one makes an aftermarket solution for. You're either using the VERY expensive Elbit battery or nothing. For now. I believe a while ago, Steele Industries stated that they were planning on making a battery pack. I messaged them and they said they could make a custom cable that would work with the 31D. I never followed up as my 1431's battery pack existed mostly as a counterweight.

    The 31D does not articulate UP as much as my 1431's. They lay parallel to the brim of my helmet rather than folding up above the brim. It's a personal preference issue and not really an issue but I do wish they could articulate further up. The IPD stops and the Wilcox G24 prevent them from rotating up further. This is honestly, pretty trivial.

    Having said all of this. The latest crop of housings are manual gain, independent pod shut off housings that are WAY newer technology than the 31D housing. Some of these housings are modular like the LLI MH1 which is pretty darned cool. The Manticore housing that is trickling out is also going to be a hot contender. These two housings are super interesting because they're metal. IF i could have metal over polymer as my last desired item on my list, I would add that.

    It's not a deal breaker but I really do believe at some point I will break my 31d's. Not because they're fragile but because I break EVERYTHING.

    If you've got the money for it and you want a factory system, do it. Period.
    Heck of a first post.
     
    So I ended up canceling the order from Optics Planet for a few reasons and ended up ordering the last set from Apollo Optics. Ryan has been great to deal with thus far. The Goggles should be in tomorrow, and I'm really looking forward to trying them out. Will report back once I get to give them a little test run.
     
    The 31D does not use a lemo port. It uses a proprietary cable which no one makes an aftermarket solution for. You're either using the VERY expensive Elbit battery or nothing. For now. I believe a while ago, Steele Industries stated that they were planning on making a battery pack. I messaged them and they said they could make a custom cable that would work with the 31D. I never followed up as my 1431's battery pack existed mostly as a counterweight.

    The 31D does not articulate UP as much as my 1431's. They lay parallel to the brim of my helmet rather than folding up above the brim. It's a personal preference issue and not really an issue but I do wish they could articulate further up. The IPD stops and the Wilcox G24 prevent them from rotating up further. This is honestly, pretty trivial.


    Never been a huge of the G24, I wonder if the newish Cadex low profile mount and maybe their CHIP plate would help.
     
    Never been a huge of the G24, I wonder if the newish Cadex low profile mount and maybe their CHIP plate would help.
    You sir, are on the same wavelength as me.

    I've been meaning to try this.

    I like the force to overcome feature of the Cadex mount. I figured that perhaps, without the two buttons on the G24 in the way, the goggle may articulate further. Truth be told, it's not a huge issue but if I could swing them up a teeny bit more, i'd be pretty happy. If I ever get around to buying a Cadex mount ill report back.
     
    Last edited:
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    Ok, so i've had the goggles for 2 days and have about 2 hours on them between getting them set up and trying them in different lighting and environments. This is the first night vision device i've ever had or possibly even looked through so take this for what it's worth. First impressions are overall positive. I like the feel and the high build quality is apparent. Going over the spec sheet I was initially a little disappointed from all things i've read on the internet over the years. FOM's are 2450 and 2500 which isn't bad, but the EBI is 1.69 and 1.06 with S/N of 32 and 33. The sheet shows no spots anywhere, and I can confirm the tubes have absolutely no flaws or blemishes, they are visually perfect. I'm not sure how common this is, but I was expecting some level of black spots from everything i've read and heard over the years. Very happy with that as my OCD can get out of hand.

    They can focus very well and produce a nice clear image, but is very dependent on the distance I am looking at. I feel like I'm constantly needing to refocus as I look around. Is this normal?

    Also, sometimes when i put the lens covers on and off I feel like I am inadvertently moving the diopter or objective focus. I wish these were a little stiffer. Any tips for this?

    In my dark basement I learned real quick how important IR illuminators can be. If it wasn't for the onboard IR i wouldn't be able to see in dark shadows or next to large object.

    I played around with some of my passive weapon sights and found the holographic sights produced good results visually, but found it a little awkward getting down and lined up correctly behind the sight. Hopefully some more practice makes this easier. I can appreciate now how an IR laser is a necessity as well.

    Overall, I'm happy with my purchase and the PVS-31d. Going forward, I'm really looking forward to gaining proficiency with these. Thanks again to everyone who helped along the way in the decision making process. I'm welcoming any tips and tricks on its operation to gain the necessary skills I need to get the most out of them. I have a Voodoo S coming soon and a surefire XVL2-IRC for primarily pistols. Starting to research laser/illuminators for the long guns.

    Cheers!
     
    Ok, so i've had the goggles for 2 days and have about 2 hours on them between getting them set up and trying them in different lighting and environments. This is the first night vision device i've ever had or possibly even looked through so take this for what it's worth. First impressions are overall positive. I like the feel and the high build quality is apparent. Going over the spec sheet I was initially a little disappointed from all things i've read on the internet over the years. FOM's are 2450 and 2500 which isn't bad, but the EBI is 1.69 and 1.06 with S/N of 32 and 33. The sheet shows no spots anywhere, and I can confirm the tubes have absolutely no flaws or blemishes, they are visually perfect. I'm not sure how common this is, but I was expecting some level of black spots from everything i've read and heard over the years. Very happy with that as my OCD can get out of hand.

    They can focus very well and produce a nice clear image, but is very dependent on the distance I am looking at. I feel like I'm constantly needing to refocus as I look around. Is this normal?

    Also, sometimes when i put the lens covers on and off I feel like I am inadvertently moving the diopter or objective focus. I wish these were a little stiffer. Any tips for this?

    In my dark basement I learned real quick how important IR illuminators can be. If it wasn't for the onboard IR i wouldn't be able to see in dark shadows or next to large object.

    I played around with some of my passive weapon sights and found the holographic sights produced good results visually, but found it a little awkward getting down and lined up correctly behind the sight. Hopefully some more practice makes this easier. I can appreciate now how an IR laser is a necessity as well.

    Overall, I'm happy with my purchase and the PVS-31d. Going forward, I'm really looking forward to gaining proficiency with these. Thanks again to everyone who helped along the way in the decision making process. I'm welcoming any tips and tricks on its operation to gain the necessary skills I need to get the most out of them. I have a Voodoo S coming soon and a surefire XVL2-IRC for primarily pistols. Starting to research laser/illuminators for the long guns.

    Cheers!
    Ok.

    Lets address a few things.

    1. The milspec EBI "limit" for most tubes is 2.0. You're still well below that. No worries man. Clean tubes are a higher priority for me than ultra low numbers. IF I can have my cake and eat it too, sure, i'll take the highest FOM and lowest EBI and Halo numbers I can find.

    2. 2450 and 2500 FOM is awesome. Just a few short years ago, tubes over 2k FOM were always absurdly expensive and fairly rare.

    3. L3 tubes typically have peppering in them. From what i've been told. Elbit, in their PVS31D is producing a cleaner tube that L3 unfilmed tubes. Your mileage may vary.

    4. My diopter and focus rings are pretty stiff. If you're moving things, you're probably rough housing those covers. There's no reason to touch your diopter adjustment ring when you remove the cover. Grab one of the tabs and simply swing the cover off to the side. I prefer to put my tube covers at the 12 o'clock position so as to not block my peripheral vision to the sides and below the device. You said that you feel like you're moving your settings. Are you actually moving your settings or are you just worried that you're going to bump something?

    5. Set your focus to infinity. Look at the stars and make sure that they're as clear as they can be. Everything from say 10 feet out will be clear. Anything closer than ten feet may be blurry. ALL NVG devices have this "issue". It's simply the way the goggles work and there is no way around this. You can try various IRIS devices that will "cheat" and give you "near focus" by limiting the amount of light coming in. Moondog industries makes a device as well as Phokus research.

    6. NV needs ambient light, period. We take for granted how much light the moon and stars provide. Inside, without supplemental IR light, any tube is going to struggle no matter how awesome it's specs may be.

    I hope this was helpful! Congrats on the beginning of an awesome and exciting journey!
     
    In my dark basement I learned real quick how important IR illuminators can be. If it wasn't for the onboard IR i wouldn't be able to see in dark shadows or next to large object.
    Yup, a common rookie realization. Just remember that Image Intensifiers need photons to work. Yes, you will see better in dark conditions, but extremely dark conditions where photons are few and far between need supporting photons.
     
    Ok.

    Lets address a few things.

    1. The milspec EBI "limit" for most tubes is 2.0. You're still well below that. No worries man. Clean tubes are a higher priority for me than ultra low numbers. IF I can have my cake and eat it too, sure, i'll take the highest FOM and lowest EBI and Halo numbers I can find.

    2. 2450 and 2500 FOM is awesome. Just a few short years ago, tubes over 2k FOM were always absurdly expensive and fairly rare.

    3. L3 tubes typically have peppering in them. From what i've been told. Elbit, in their PVS31D is producing a cleaner tube that L3 unfilmed tubes. Your mileage may vary.

    4. My diopter and focus rings are pretty stiff. If you're moving things, you're probably rough housing those covers. There's no reason to touch your diopter adjustment ring when you remove the cover. Grab one of the tabs and simply swing the cover off to the side. I prefer to put my tube covers at the 12 o'clock position so as to not block my peripheral vision to the sides and below the device. You said that you feel like you're moving your settings. Are you actually moving your settings or are you just worried that you're going to bump something?

    5. Set your focus to infinity. Look at the stars and make sure that they're as clear as they can be. Everything from say 10 feet out will be clear. Anything closer than ten feet may be blurry. ALL NVG devices have this "issue". It's simply the way the goggles work and there is no way around this. You can try various IRIS devices that will "cheat" and give you "near focus" by limiting the amount of light coming in. Moondog industries makes a device as well as Phokus research.

    6. NV needs ambient light, period. We take for granted how much light the moon and stars provide. Inside, without supplemental IR light, any tube is going to struggle no matter how awesome it's specs may be.

    I hope this was helpful! Congrats on the beginning of an awesome and exciting journey!
    Elbit, on average is producing cleaner tubes (right now) than L-3. You are correct.

    Spec sheets: I've given up on them. I've had a LOT of NV through my hands over the years and nothing beats looking through them side by side. I have had a 3000 FOM unit with a stellar spec sheet get absolutely trounced by a 2400 FOM unit of the SAME MANUFACTURER with a spec sheet that was worse than the 3k unit on paper in every way.

    Our eyes are not machines.
     
    Ok.

    Lets address a few things.

    1. The milspec EBI "limit" for most tubes is 2.0. You're still well below that. No worries man. Clean tubes are a higher priority for me than ultra low numbers. IF I can have my cake and eat it too, sure, i'll take the highest FOM and lowest EBI and Halo numbers I can find.

    2. 2450 and 2500 FOM is awesome. Just a few short years ago, tubes over 2k FOM were always absurdly expensive and fairly rare.

    3. L3 tubes typically have peppering in them. From what i've been told. Elbit, in their PVS31D is producing a cleaner tube that L3 unfilmed tubes. Your mileage may vary.

    4. My diopter and focus rings are pretty stiff. If you're moving things, you're probably rough housing those covers. There's no reason to touch your diopter adjustment ring when you remove the cover. Grab one of the tabs and simply swing the cover off to the side. I prefer to put my tube covers at the 12 o'clock position so as to not block my peripheral vision to the sides and below the device. You said that you feel like you're moving your settings. Are you actually moving your settings or are you just worried that you're going to bump something?

    5. Set your focus to infinity. Look at the stars and make sure that they're as clear as they can be. Everything from say 10 feet out will be clear. Anything closer than ten feet may be blurry. ALL NVG devices have this "issue". It's simply the way the goggles work and there is no way around this. You can try various IRIS devices that will "cheat" and give you "near focus" by limiting the amount of light coming in. Moondog industries makes a device as well as Phokus research.

    6. NV needs ambient light, period. We take for granted how much light the moon and stars provide. Inside, without supplemental IR light, any tube is going to struggle no matter how awesome it's specs may be.

    I hope this was helpful! Congrats on the beginning of an awesome and exciting journey!
    Thank you for the clarification on these concerns.

    I did move the focus and diopters early on when removing the covers. Seems to be a better now being really careful. Still wish they were a bit stiffer though.

    I haven't seen a single star since I got the goggles with the lousy weather in the east. I have found a method that seems to work for me. I focus on something about 20-25 yards away and that seems to do very well from 15 yards to infinity. I find it acceptable from 5 to 15 yards. Inside 5 forget it.

    Still getting use to everything but it's getting much more natural. I brought in the trash cans and picked up some twigs last night. Just getting use to moving and scanning with them.
     
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    Thank you for the clarification on these concerns.

    I did move the focus and diopters early on when removing the covers. Seems to be a better now being really careful. Still wish they were a bit stiffer though.

    I haven't seen a single star since I got the goggles with the lousy weather in the east. I have found a method that seems to work for me. I focus on something about 20-25 yards away and that seems to do very well from 15 yards to infinity. I find it acceptable from 5 to 15 yards. Inside 5 forget it.

    Still getting use to everything but it's getting much more natural. I brought in the trash cans and picked up some twigs last night. Just getting use to moving and scanning with them.
    I would have to agree with everything @Magsz18 has posted about them.

    As far as the diopters, there’s a trick that pretty much works with any goggle. I’ll attach a photo below, but essentially you just need to find a really wide ranger band (twice as wide as the one in my photo preferably), and slip it over the diopter and allow it to hang over onto the ocular lens housing. The grippy rubber will hold the diopter knurling in place and prevent you from accidentally bumping them out of adjustment. I’ll usually devote an evening to carefully adjusting my diopters, marking with a paint pen (easily removed with alcohol), and finally applying the ranger band, and then never touch or worry about them ever again. This also works exceptionally well with pvs14 lenses.



    As far as my input on the 31Ds: I’ve owned most of the common night vision housings to include anvis, pvs15, rnvg, rpnvg, 1431, pvs31A, 1531, photonis PD Pro, DTNVS, multiple bridged pvs14 setups, and probably some other binos I’m forgetting, and of course my current set, the pvs31D.



    It’s hands down my favorite housing due to its tasteful balance of features, weight, and my perception of its durability (it’s got the tightest articulation of any goggle I’ve ever used). The M24 tubes perform very well against Filmless, with Filmless having about 5% better low light performance, and better halo performance spec for spec. The outdoor photos above were taken on a overcast night under tree canopy (please pay attention to the photo labels to help differentiate between devices). To the eye, it was really splitting hairs trying to compare the M24 Elbit tubes Vs the Filmless tubes in the 1531. And I can say that was definitely dark enough for a good comparison, the brighter photos were enhanced, the dark photos are how each device looked to the eyes (gain was maxed on both devices). Any darker out and we probably would have started using IR to help navigate that particular trail, as some parts were slightly sketchy.

    The last two photos show how thin filmed vs Filmless tubes react to halo. You can always test this yourself by creating whats called a “artificial star”, by placing aluminum foil over a flashlight head and using a pin to poke a tiny hole in the middle of the foil. This will mimic a really bright star or normal laser pointer splash, and allow you a consistent way to reference halo specs between different devices.

    Both devices had a halo of .7 on paper, yet you can easily tell that Filmless responds to light far better than the thin filmed Elbit tubes, at least in this example (although it holds true across the board imo). This comes into play when using laser pointers, navigating urban environments, or for law enforcement if you can imagine for a moment… needing to see past things such as vehicle headlights and through a vehicle windshield. Or trying to ID someone who is surrounded by a well lit area or who may be shining a light your direction. This is why I will always recommend Filmless to professionals that are put in life/death situations, as these small performance characteristics can make a huge difference. However, for the people who don’t shoot others for a living, you’ll find that thin filmed tubes have a better performance to cost ratio (at least at this point in time). This halo difference is a much bigger factor than what little low light performance differences I’ve witnessed. In lesser/older thin filmed tubes I’ve been able to see more performance loss in low light, but these high end Elbit tubes really do well.

    In my opinion, it’s always ended up seeming like I was paying ~30% more money for about a 5-10% difference in performance going with Filmless. I like them all honestly, but I don’t feel disadvantaged having a set of pvs31D over a set of pvs31A, as the 31D housing has impressed me more, and the tubes are so close to what you get with Filmless apart from the halo aspect.

    One last comment: the lenses of the 31D are absolutely superb, and are one of the few proprietary lens systems which can come very close to the gold standard Carson PVS14 lenses. I’ve used other high end binos with their own proprietary glass, and have been let down by the eyebox, eye relief, and flatness of the image (or the lack thereof) . The 31D lenses do not disappoint however, and I essentially forget about them and feel like I’m wearing a regular set of binos with pvs14 lenses

    Also, big shout out to Ryan @ Apolo Gear, as thats where my 31Ds came from also.

    Sorry I haven’t posted in a while, I’ll try to jump back in here more often.

    Bonus 31D photos. Higher light environment

     
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    I would have to agree with everything @Magsz18 has posted about them.

    As far as the diopters, there’s a trick that pretty much works with any goggle. I’ll attach a photo below, but essentially you just need to find a really wide ranger band (twice as wide as the one in my photo preferably), and slip it over the diopter and allow it to hang over onto the ocular lens housing. The grippy rubber will hold the diopter knurling in place and prevent you from accidentally bumping them out of adjustment. I’ll usually devote an evening to carefully adjusting my diopters, marking with a paint pen (easily removed with alcohol), and finally applying the ranger band, and then never touch or worry about them ever again. This also works exceptionally well with pvs14 lenses.



    As far as my input on the 31Ds: I’ve owned most of the common night vision housings to include anvis, pvs15, rnvg, rpnvg, 1431, pvs31A, 1531, photonis PD Pro, DTNVS, multiple bridged pvs14 setups, and probably some other binos I’m forgetting, and of course my current set, the pvs31D.



    It’s hands down my favorite housing due to its tasteful balance of features, weight, and my perception of its durability (it’s got the tightest articulation of any goggle I’ve ever used). The M24 tubes perform very well against Filmless, with Filmless having about 5% better low light performance, and better halo performance spec for spec. The outdoor photos above were taken on a overcast night under tree canopy (please pay attention to the photo labels to help differentiate between devices). To the eye, it was really splitting hairs trying to compare the M24 Elbit tubes Vs the Filmless tubes in the 1531. And I can say that was definitely dark enough for a good comparison, the brighter photos were enhanced, the dark photos are how each device looked to the eyes (gain was maxed on both devices). Any darker out and we probably would have started using IR to help navigate that particular trail, as some parts were slightly sketchy.

    The last two photos show how thin filmed vs Filmless tubes react to halo. You can always test this yourself by creating whats called a “artificial star”, by placing aluminum foil over a flashlight head and using a pin to poke a tiny hole in the middle of the foil. This will mimic a really bright star or normal laser pointer splash, and allow you a consistent way to reference halo specs between different devices.

    Both devices had a halo of .7 on paper, yet you can easily tell that Filmless responds to light far better than the thin filmed Elbit tubes, at least in this example (although it holds true across the board imo). This comes into play when using laser pointers, navigating urban environments, or for law enforcement if you can imagine for a moment… needing to see past things such as vehicle headlights and through a vehicle windshield. Or trying to ID someone who is surrounded by a well lit area or who may be shining a light your direction. This is why I will always recommend Filmless to professionals that are put in life/death situations, as these small performance characteristics can make a huge difference. However, for the people who don’t shoot others for a living, you’ll find that thin filmed tubes have a better performance to cost ratio (at least at this point in time). This halo difference is a much bigger factor than what little low light performance differences I’ve witnessed. In lesser/older thin filmed tubes I’ve been able to see more performance loss in low light, but these high end Elbit tubes really do well.

    In my opinion, it’s always ended up seeming like I was paying ~30% more money for about a 5-10% difference in performance going with Filmless. I like them all honestly, but I don’t feel disadvantaged having a set of pvs31D over a set of pvs31A, as the 31D housing has impressed me more, and the tubes are so close to what you get with Filmless apart from the halo aspect.

    One last comment: the lenses of the 31D are absolutely superb, and are one of the few proprietary lens systems which can come very close to the gold standard Carson PVS14 lenses. I’ve used other high end binos with their own proprietary glass, and have been let down by the eyebox, eye relief, and flatness of the image. The 31D lenses do not disappoint however, and I essentially forget about them and feel like I’m wearing a regular set of binos with pvs14 lenses

    Also, big shout out to Ryan @ Apolo Gear, as thats where my 31Ds came from also.

    Sorry I haven’t posted in a while, I’ll try to jump back in here more often.

    Bonus 31D photos. Higher light environment


    Super helpful post, jelous of your time behind all those bino systems!

    How do the Photonis tubes stack up with regards to Halo? Do they keep up with the Elbit stuff in low light?
     
    Photonis are amazing for halo control but they don’t keep up with gen 3 for low light.
    Your typical echo tube has 10K gain vs 60K+ for Gen 3 WP
    This

    I’m still a big Photonis fan though, I’ve owned at least half a dozen Photonis tubes in various devices and they have always been consistently good performers, especially for the money.

    The only device that didn’t fit my needs was the Photonis PD pro, which had some odd characteristics of the image which probably has something to do with the lenses or the smaller diameter image tubes.
     
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    This

    I’m still a big Photonis fan though, I’ve owned at least half a dozen Photonis tubes in various devices and they have always been consistently good performers, especially for the money.

    The only device that didn’t fit my needs was the Photonis PD pro, which had some odd characteristics of the image which probably has something to do with the lenses or the smaller diameter image tubes.
    Oh by all means I didn’t mean to critique the photonis product. I run an echo tube, it’s very clear and works great around the farm and if it gets too dark on some night, I simply turn on my IR.
    That being said, some people say they’re as bright as actual Gen 3 WP and that’s where I disagree but for most night conditions where you have a bit of starlight, they get really close. Where supergain Gen3 stuff shines is in the shitty overcast no moon no stars nights, the ECHO will have a lot of noise.
     
    I have been following this thread from the beginning because I have had such a hard time making a final decision on what to buy. I've had two years to comb the interweb to increase my knowledge as much as possible regarding NVG. I am still not where I want to be, but you guys have taught me a lot just by reading the forums here at snipershide. So much so, that I created an account and this is my first post. I have to say that I particularly learned a lot from the posts put out by @Magsz18. I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss in great detail your experiences between the 31A & 31D. I even called your guy Ryan @ Apollo and he spent a lot of time on the phone with me and I just place my order today.

    Although I did not go with either unit, this particular post let me know what I did and did not want as far as features go. I am sure once I get more familiar with my new device, I will probably have paid for features I did not need and wish I had some features I did not pay for. I can tell you reading about you guys experience definitely got me closer to the mark than where I would have been. At the end of the day, I think you just have to make the best decision you can and the experience of using the NV will be the ultimate teacher.

    Anyways, just wanted to let you guys know there are a lot of people like me that do not join the forum and post comments, but we read and learn through your discussions. I really appreciate this place and the people that are willing to offer up their wisdom.
     
    I have been following this thread from the beginning because I have had such a hard time making a final decision on what to buy. I've had two years to comb the interweb to increase my knowledge as much as possible regarding NVG. I am still not where I want to be, but you guys have taught me a lot just by reading the forums here at snipershide. So much so, that I created an account and this is my first post. I have to say that I particularly learned a lot from the posts put out by @Magsz18. I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss in great detail your experiences between the 31A & 31D. I even called your guy Ryan @ Apollo and he spent a lot of time on the phone with me and I just place my order today.

    Although I did not go with either unit, this particular post let me know what I did and did not want as far as features go. I am sure once I get more familiar with my new device, I will probably have paid for features I did not need and wish I had some features I did not pay for. I can tell you reading about you guys experience definitely got me closer to the mark than where I would have been. At the end of the day, I think you just have to make the best decision you can and the experience of using the NV will be the ultimate teacher.

    Anyways, just wanted to let you guys know there are a lot of people like me that do not join the forum and post comments, but we read and learn through your discussions. I really appreciate this place and the people that are willing to offer up their wisdom.
    Agree, it's a wealth of information and a great group overall. Out of curiosity what did you end up going with?
     
    Agree, it's a wealth of information and a great group overall. Out of curiosity what did you end up going with?
    I ended up going with the DTNVS L3 Unfilmed 24UAH Super-Gain. I'm in rural Louisiana and I just felt the 100K luminance gain was best for me. I kept going back and forth between the DTNVS and the 31D and just settled on the DTNVS, but honestly, I feel either was a good decision. The 31A was never even an option for me after reading the posts above. Hopefully I made the right choice, but I think my biggest fear was getting ripped off because of my lack of knowledge.

    One more thing, I do feel thermal is king and that was where I wanted to go first, but I feel there is too much of a gap in the market right now between the high end thermal and the lower end thermal. I have a feeling that the thermal market will be in a completely different place as more people start looking at fusion and NV/TH bridged units. I feel that right now, NV was the right first step for me.
     
    You mind sharing what the specs were on the unit you got? Res, SNR, Halo, EBI ect.?

    I'm sure you will love them! I've run Elbits and liked them but the L3 stuff just looked better to me (saving for binos now)
     
    I was really relying on Ryan with some of the specs. It took me a while to man up and hit the “submit payment” button. My understanding is anything NV related is about to be having a big price increase in a few months. I do not know why, but I assume people are getting a little nervous with what’s happening to our country right now.
     
    Ryan is good people - I’ve gotten a few units from him over the past couple years and he recently did a pretty bonkers custom build for me where his perfectionist attitude paid off.
     
    I have been following this thread from the beginning because I have had such a hard time making a final decision on what to buy. I've had two years to comb the interweb to increase my knowledge as much as possible regarding NVG. I am still not where I want to be, but you guys have taught me a lot just by reading the forums here at snipershide. So much so, that I created an account and this is my first post. I have to say that I particularly learned a lot from the posts put out by @Magsz18. I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss in great detail your experiences between the 31A & 31D. I even called your guy Ryan @ Apollo and he spent a lot of time on the phone with me and I just place my order today.

    Although I did not go with either unit, this particular post let me know what I did and did not want as far as features go. I am sure once I get more familiar with my new device, I will probably have paid for features I did not need and wish I had some features I did not pay for. I can tell you reading about you guys experience definitely got me closer to the mark than where I would have been. At the end of the day, I think you just have to make the best decision you can and the experience of using the NV will be the ultimate teacher.

    Anyways, just wanted to let you guys know there are a lot of people like me that do not join the forum and post comments, but we read and learn through your discussions. I really appreciate this place and the people that are willing to offer up their wisdom.
    Cool first post.

    What unit did you settle on?

    Edit: I’m an idiot, I should have read your other post. Congrats, Ryan is one of the greats in the industry.
     
    Ryan really is great people.

    I'm happy that my input was useful to some people here. I've been a long time lurker. I finally figured I would register and post since some of these topics were...well, topical. :)

    The reality is that there really is no perfect NV device. Some people don't give two hoots about manual gain and other's cant live without it. Some people get by just fine with a fixed bridge and other's can't live without articulation. Ultimately, finding good information regarding use case and experiences can help drive people towards making good decisions for themselves.

    It's really exciting when people hop on board a new adventure. Make sure you guys get out and use your devices. Enjoy them!
     
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    Ryan really is great people.

    I'm happy that my input was useful to some people here. I've been a long time lurker. I finally figured I would register and post since some of these topics were...well, topical. :)

    The reality is that there really is no perfect NV device. Some people don't give two hoots about manual gain and other's cant live without it. Some people get by just fine with a fixed bridge and other's can't live without articulation. Ultimately, finding good information regarding use case and experiences can help drive people towards making good decisions for themselves.
    👍🏻
    It's really exciting when people hop on board a new adventure. Make sure you guys get out and use your devices. Enjoy them!
     
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    Definitely a new adventure to say the least. I’ve never looked through NV. Since you brought it up, my biggest sticking point was the manual/auto gain feature. I was kind of told there isn’t a right answer. What ultimately made the decision was the weight of the unit. It’s lighter than most and it had auto gain so that was the determining factor. I can tell you now that I’ve been able to finally get the NV picked out and ordered, I feel like a weight has been lifted. Almost two years of my free time trying to figure this out. Unit supposed to be here Friday and then the real learning will begin. I suppose my biggest hurdle will be learning how to accurately shoot with these things. Glad I joined because I’m sure there are a few threads on that too!
     
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    Definitely a new adventure to say the least. I’ve never looked through NV. Since you brought it up, my biggest sticking point was the manual/auto gain feature. I was kind of told there isn’t a right answer. What ultimately made the decision was the weight of the unit. It’s lighter than most and it had auto gain so that was the determining factor. I can tell you now that I’ve been able to finally get the NV picked out and ordered, I feel like a weight has been lifted. Almost two years of my free time trying to figure this out. Unit supposed to be here Friday and then the real learning will begin. I suppose my biggest hurdle will be learning how to accurately shoot with these things. Glad I joined because I’m sure there are a few threads on that too!
    You got some BITCHIN tubes. There's no way you're not going to be happy with them. From here on out, it's just a matter of finding time to put them on your skull and go find some work.

    The hardest part about NV skill building is that the barrier to entry is really high. Building handgun skills can be done with a blue gun and some dry fire targets.

    Building skill with NV requires thousands of dollars spent. Once the money is spent, building those skills can only be done at certain times, ie on the range, at night etc. Otherwise, simply learning to use the device is limited to approximately 12 hours a day/night.