Question about Annealing too much

[Kaveman44]

So I use a Gerardi power Trimmer to chamfer and deburr , I also have a Lyman case prep station where I also put a little more of a chamfer and deburr on some of my cases , I noticed when I’m puttting my bullets into my cases that the ones I’ll do the extra chamfer and deburr , there’s not as much neck tension, so what I did is re-anneal those cases and the neck tension was back to normal so is it a bad thing to anneal twice when reloading and I think I’m just gonna stop the second chamfer and deburr because I think it’s not needed obviously, The reason I did the second chamfer and deburr was one of my calibers on my Girard power trimmer was not set up correctly.

Thanks guys and Happy New Year!!!!

 

[predatornut]

I believe (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that as long as it is done properly, ie not over-annealled, that annealling multiple times won’t have any affect on the brass.

 

[Kaveman44]

I have a AMP Annealer

 

[The D]

There is a long thread in this subforum, probably within the first few pages, about annealing.

Edit: found it

Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

Kind of long winded but bare with me. I am relatively new to long range precision shooting and have definitely been bitten by the bug. Started with factory ammunition and now have taken up reloading. Annealing was the next step in my progression. As is my nature I read everything I could and...

www.snipershide.com

 

[308pirate]

As long as you limit the annealing to the neck/shoulder region, you can do it as many times as you want.

 

[whatsupdoc]

What may be happening is that your Giraud trimmer is not putting
enough chamfer on the inside of the case causing harder seating but when
you add the second chamfer step you put a better chamfer on the case neck and bullets
seat easier.

 

[RegionRat]

There is a first order effect from annealing with respect to yield strength, fatigue, and cracking.

When you take an annealed neck to the same forced strain as an un-annealed neck, eventually the un-annealed necks will statistically crack sooner with all other things being equal. But keep in mind, we are discussing multiple cycles, not a single event.

That said, if you can avoid extra annealing heat cycles with all other things being equal, the brass will last slightly longer. Microscopic cracks tend to propagate with things like heating cycles similar to the reasons they will propagate with stress, just to a far lesser magnitude.

I would try to get it right and be done with it in one cycle rather than two. Doing it in a pinch is one thing and no big deal, making a habit of it is another. I doubt you would make a habit of this, but since you asked...

Happy New Year!!!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

As suggested already, as long as the case head isn’t getting softened, you’re fine. You’d have to run the brass in the amp when it’s still pretty hot to mess up. So, you’re fine.

However, I have to ask what seating method and tools you’re using that showed less “tension” with once annealed brass than twice annealed…..all things being equal. As something doesn’t sound like it’s lining up with what should be happening.

 

[mtang45]

So I use a Gerardi power Trimmer to chamfer and deburr , I also have a Lyman case prep station where I also put a little more of a chamfer and deburr on some of my cases , I noticed when I’m puttting my bullets into my cases that the ones I’ll do the extra chamfer and deburr , there’s not as much neck tension, so what I did is re-anneal those cases and the neck tension was back to normal so is it a bad thing to anneal twice when reloading and I think I’m just gonna stop the second chamfer and deburr because I think it’s not needed obviously, The reason I did the second chamfer and deburr was one of my calibers on my Girard power trimmer was not set up correctly.

Thanks guys and Happy New Year!!!!

So I'm confused, you stated that annealing a second time apparently made the brass harder and therefore increased neck tension? Thats backwards from the way it is supposed to work.

 

[Kaveman44]

So I use an arbor press and after the second anneal it took more force to seat the bullet compared to only annealing it once , now I never had this problem until I chamfer and deburr twice

 

[308pirate]

So I use an arbor press and after the second anneal it took more force to seat the bullet compared to only annealing it once , now I never had this problem until I chamfer and deburr twice

Did you resize the mouth after the second annealing cycle?

Annealing relieves stresses in the metal and can sometimes create distortion. If you didn't at least run a neck mandrel through its possible that the mouth was out round enough to make seating need more force.

 

[Kaveman44]

I didn’t, is that a problem?

 

[Kaveman44]

I read that some people anneal their new brass so I figured I didn’t have to

 

[308pirate]

I didn’t, is that a problem?

You must have missed my edit. Go back over my last reply.

Reloading requires thought.

 

[308pirate]

I read that some people anneal their new brass so I figured I didn’t have to

This has nothing to do with your issue

 

[Kaveman44]

He said that some manufactures don’t anneal good enough, the force feels like It does when I only chamfer and deburr once, when I chamfer and deburr twice I can literally push in the bullet into the case by hand after I seat the bullet, it takes some forced to do it but I can do it, Normally I can’t so that’s why I annealed it the second time and now I can’t push it in by hand after the bullets seated

 

[Kaveman44]

They all look like they did before as far as them being deformed

 

[spife7980]

Why would one do that? It gets one final anneal after all forming steps are done.

I do because if it doesnt go further than the factory did, then it causes no harm. If it does go further than factory, then it will be more in line with how it will be treated for the rest of its life. I do mandrel the necks open after though. If it doesnt need a mandrel I probably wouldnt bother.
And funnily enough amp has one of their studies saying that if youre going to work the necks first on virgin brass then annealing will do what I did it for. If you arent then to not bother.



That said, Kaveman, IM having a hard time tracking what exactly you did or why you did it. It sounds like youre shooting in the dark at whats cauing things.
You should set the giraud up to give a bit more inside chamfur and a little less deburr and youll find that with a more adequate chamfer the giraud that it will seat smoothly.
Instead of guessing at whats been done to it and why things are happening, you should get some measurements. Its all in the data there somewhere.
And quit annealing guessing at cures, annealing wont ever be the cure on a virgin case and if you did soften the necks until they are finger malleable then you ruined it. But without measurements we cant know any of that. Sounds like you have some nice tools, what are the measurements?

 

[Kaveman44]

So I loaded 80 rounds to practice with this way, do I need to unload them all and start over or do you guys think that these rounds will be OK for practice

 

[308pirate]

So I loaded 80 rounds to practice with this way, do I need to unload them all and start over or do you guys think that these rounds will be OK for practice

Shoot them and find out. You'll learn more that way.

 

[Kaveman44]

That’s true! Thanks for all your help guys! have a great new year!

 

[308pirate]

They all look like they did before as far as them being deformed

We're talking a few thousands of an inch deformation. Not something you can see.

Are you going to take advice from people who know more than you or are you going to argue?

Let me know so I stop wasting my time.

 

[308pirate]

He said that some manufactures don’t anneal good enough

Stop listening to whomever told you that.

 

[Kaveman44]

I’m just gonna start over I appreciate your guys answers and I am listening , i’m sorry it doesn’t seem that way because I’m trying to look at everybody’s response and think about what I’m gonna do but I appreciate your guys help amd have a great new year

 

[Kaveman44]

We're talking a few thousands of an inch deformation. Not something you can see.

Are you going to take advice from people who know more than you or are you going to argue?

Let me know so I stop wasting my time.

And I didn’t think I was arguing I was just telling you something that I seen

 

[Kinetic Moose]

OK,
my experience is as follows with an amp annealer as well.
chamfer on the case makes a huge difference on FELT neck tension when you are inserting the projectile, but actual neck tension will only be measured by using a gauge to check the ID and comparing it to your bullet's OD. I spin my lyman chamfer tool backwards for 1/2 a turn and that puts a nice smooth edge on it without dropping a lot of brass off of the front, deforms it just enough to allow my bullets to slip right in. I did notice when i purposely over annealed a few that there was stiction,,, that i attributed to oxidation during the annealing process, as everything else was the same.

I never checked concentricity of the over annealed rounds, but there was most definitely a POI change and accuracy lost for the same speed, seating depth, etc. I assume that the shoulder allowed a little more give and maybe pushed back just a little more or even possibly unevenly.

Ditched the brass and answered that question.

Good Luck

 

[Feniks Technologies]

OK,
my experience is as follows with an amp annealer as well.
chamfer on the case makes a huge difference on FELT neck tension when you are inserting the projectile, but actual neck tension will only be measured by using a gauge to check the ID and comparing it to your bullet's OD. I spin my lyman chamfer tool backwards for 1/2 a turn and that puts a nice smooth edge on it without dropping a lot of brass off of the front, deforms it just enough to allow my bullets to slip right in. I did notice when i purposely over annealed a few that there was stiction,,, that i attributed to oxidation during the annealing process, as everything else was the same.

I never checked concentricity of the over annealed rounds, but there was most definitely a POI change and accuracy lost for the same speed, seating depth, etc. I assume that the shoulder allowed a little more give and maybe pushed back just a little more or even possibly unevenly.

Ditched the brass and answered that question.

Good Luck

You’re describing two different things.

Interference fit is the inside diameter. It is absolutely not “tension” even though that’s what most people describe it.

The “felt” tension is the actual tension (at least part of it) and is very important (depending on what reason it’s high or low).

You can take the exact same interference fit (what you called “actual”) , and completely destroy a bullet jacket with different seating pressure if the pressure is caused by certain negative things.


Short story: there’s much more to this than your post entails.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

OK,
my experience is as follows with an amp annealer as well.
chamfer on the case makes a huge difference on FELT neck tension when you are inserting the projectile, but actual neck tension will only be measured by using a gauge to check the ID and comparing it to your bullet's OD. I spin my lyman chamfer tool backwards for 1/2 a turn and that puts a nice smooth edge on it without dropping a lot of brass off of the front, deforms it just enough to allow my bullets to slip right in. I did notice when i purposely over annealed a few that there was stiction,,, that i attributed to oxidation during the annealing process, as everything else was the same.

I never checked concentricity of the over annealed rounds, but there was most definitely a POI change and accuracy lost for the same speed, seating depth, etc. I assume that the shoulder allowed a little more give and maybe pushed back just a little more or even possibly unevenly.

Ditched the brass and answered that question.

Good Luck

Also, “over annealed” is no longer annealed. It’s damaged and that goes beyond annealing.

If the brass isn’t actually damaged on a crystallized level, it will still shoot fine. Albeit that you may need to adjust other things.

 

[Kinetic Moose]

You’re describing two different things.

Interference fit is the inside diameter. It is absolutely not “tension” even though that’s what most people describe it.

The “felt” tension is the actual tension (at least part of it) and is very important (depending on what reason it’s high or low).

You can take the exact same interference fit (what you called “actual”) , and completely destroy a bullet jacket with different seating pressure if the pressure is caused by certain negative things.


Short story: there’s much more to this than your post entails.

so, I will disagree a little and agree a little.
Interference fit is defined by us the shooters as neck tension, I usually set mine at .002, the FELT tension is completely dependant on what press you happen to be using, and the feedback it gives, but in my experience can be substantially lessened by precise and proper chamfering of the necks. FELT tension is completely irrelevant and very hard to replicate without a force gauge plot while seating every round, Que 21st century shooting and Amps new press etc. You can't tell me a Rock Chucker is remotely repeatable by feel, mechanical advantage is too high, and it's been proven that even professional mechanics are doing good to estimate torque within 15F/LBS.

I think is goes without saying that if you're destroying bullet jackets this thread isn't for you, you are correct, we could talk for hours on reloading, but i have some reloading to do myself.

Cheers!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

so, I will disagree a little and agree a little.
Interference fit is defined by us the shooters as neck tension, I usually set mine at .002, the FELT tension is completely dependant on what press you happen to be using, and the feedback it gives, but in my experience can be substantially lessened by precise and proper chamfering of the necks. FELT tension is completely irrelevant and very hard to replicate without a force gauge plot while seating every round, Que 21st century shooting and Amps new press etc. You can't tell me a Rock Chucker is remotely repeatable by feel, mechanical advantage is too high, and it's been proven that even professional mechanics are doing good to estimate torque within 15F/LBS.

I think is goes without saying that if you're destroying bullet jackets this thread isn't for you, you are correct, we could talk for hours on reloading, but i have some reloading to do myself.

Cheers!

Mostly true.

But your inside diameter is far less important than the rest of what you described.

And just because shooters describe something incorrectly, doesn’t make it right.

Chamfer also has far, far less to do with jacket damage that people think. This is being shown know with AMP presses.

Inside surface finish and things like lube are far more influential than inside neck chamfering.

 

[Kinetic Moose]

Mostly true.

But your inside diameter is far less important than the rest of what you described.

And just because shooters describe something incorrectly, doesn’t make it right.

Chamfer also has far, far less to do with jacket damage that people think. This is being shown know with AMP presses.

Inside surface finish and things like lube are far more influential than inside neck chamfering.

Why isn't ID important?