I hear people talking about "hard hold". What exactly do they mean? I have been trying to shoot from a bipod the past few weeks and needless to say have not been very consistent. I hear people talking about loading the bipod and then others talking about pulling the rifle into the shoulder. I find it hard to do both at the same time. I know I need to sign up for training, but I am a little tapped out between a new rifle and various reloading equipment. Any tips for getting a more solid hold on the rifle would be appreciated.
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Advanced Marksmanship Question about hard hold
- Thread starter jpistolero02
- Start date
Re: Question about hard hold
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1706869#Post1706869
what the 2 videos in this thread. It may give you a better idea of what is being talked about
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1706869#Post1706869
what the 2 videos in this thread. It may give you a better idea of what is being talked about
Re: Question about hard hold
A little clarification might be useful.
Military marksmanship instructors used to tell students to "hold hard", largely because of a lack of understanding of proper NPA.
That was back in the day when a prone position had the shooter inclined at about a 30 degree angle to the line of fire.
"Hold hard", to them, meant exactly that - use a lot of force to try to keep the rifle from moving during the recoil cycle, including a tight grip on the rifle and considerable head pressure on the stock.
Which, if you have a good NPA, isn't necessary. If you watch the referenced videos, the shooter isn't exerting a lot of force on the rifle, and doesn't have to, because his NPA is correct.
We teach people to get straight behind the rifle, but with some hard-recoiling rifles, I've actually found it necessary to be slightly inclined toward my strong side, so that the center of my body is directly behind the rifle, rather than the line of the bore being parallel to my spine.
If the rifle stays on or returns to the target after recoil, NPA is correct. You don't have to guess at this - the rifle will tell you what to do.
A little clarification might be useful.
Military marksmanship instructors used to tell students to "hold hard", largely because of a lack of understanding of proper NPA.
That was back in the day when a prone position had the shooter inclined at about a 30 degree angle to the line of fire.
"Hold hard", to them, meant exactly that - use a lot of force to try to keep the rifle from moving during the recoil cycle, including a tight grip on the rifle and considerable head pressure on the stock.
Which, if you have a good NPA, isn't necessary. If you watch the referenced videos, the shooter isn't exerting a lot of force on the rifle, and doesn't have to, because his NPA is correct.
We teach people to get straight behind the rifle, but with some hard-recoiling rifles, I've actually found it necessary to be slightly inclined toward my strong side, so that the center of my body is directly behind the rifle, rather than the line of the bore being parallel to my spine.
If the rifle stays on or returns to the target after recoil, NPA is correct. You don't have to guess at this - the rifle will tell you what to do.
Re: Question about hard hold
Thanks guys!
Lindy, I see you are down in Rockport. I love that area. Unfortunately, I had to move over to San Antonio bay to get away from the crowds down in Rockport. I still have some good friends that live in Key Allegro.
Thanks guys!
Lindy, I see you are down in Rockport. I love that area. Unfortunately, I had to move over to San Antonio bay to get away from the crowds down in Rockport. I still have some good friends that live in Key Allegro.
Re: Question about hard hold
We love this area, too. We don't find it too crowded, except during spring break and the July 4th weekend. And it's large enough to have a good H.E.B. grocery store and a Super Wal-Mart.
There's a picture of the front yard on my web site:
http://www.arcanamavens.com
Regards,
-- Lindy
We love this area, too. We don't find it too crowded, except during spring break and the July 4th weekend. And it's large enough to have a good H.E.B. grocery store and a Super Wal-Mart.
There's a picture of the front yard on my web site:
http://www.arcanamavens.com
Regards,
-- Lindy
Re: Question about hard hold
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpistolero02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear people talking about "hard hold". What exactly do they mean? I have been trying to shoot from a bipod the past few weeks and needless to say have not been very consistent. I hear people talking about loading the bipod and then others talking about pulling the rifle into the shoulder. I find it hard to do both at the same time. I know I need to sign up for training, but I am a little tapped out between a new rifle and various reloading equipment. Any tips for getting a more solid hold on the rifle would be appreciated. </div></div>
Today "hold hard" and break-a-leg are synonymous. And, in the shooting sports, when you hear the phrase it's usually in the context of someone reminding you to concentrate and not make mistakes. After the shooter leaves the firing line, if things went well, folks might say, "you really tore it up".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpistolero02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hear people talking about "hard hold". What exactly do they mean? I have been trying to shoot from a bipod the past few weeks and needless to say have not been very consistent. I hear people talking about loading the bipod and then others talking about pulling the rifle into the shoulder. I find it hard to do both at the same time. I know I need to sign up for training, but I am a little tapped out between a new rifle and various reloading equipment. Any tips for getting a more solid hold on the rifle would be appreciated. </div></div>
Today "hold hard" and break-a-leg are synonymous. And, in the shooting sports, when you hear the phrase it's usually in the context of someone reminding you to concentrate and not make mistakes. After the shooter leaves the firing line, if things went well, folks might say, "you really tore it up".
Re: Question about hard hold
In traditional highpower rifle shooting (not bipod shooting) a shooter with an outstanding proper and technically correct position is considered a "Hard holder" -- his natural point of aim brings him back down onto target once the rifle goes off, recoils and cycles, and comes back on target.
His sling is snug and correct, his eye distance keeps him from getting smacked, and his weapon comes back onto target effortlessly. It was much more challenging to do with a 30-caliber rifle, but the principles are the same if you're shooting an M4, M16, or bolt action.
If you were to stand behind a service rifle team shooter after his 60 or 70-second 10-shot rapid-fire string (shooting two rounds and changing magaiznes to shoot another eight rounds) his coach will ask him how his shots broke. You might hear the shooter say something like "Two shots wide to the right."
Once the targets come up for score the coach will use his scope to take down data and read the score board. If the coach says something like "Seven X, two wide on the right" the shooter's score might be something like 100 with seven X's with two of the tens on the right between mid-ring to just breaking the 10-9 scoring ring.
THAT is hard holding.
In traditional highpower rifle shooting (not bipod shooting) a shooter with an outstanding proper and technically correct position is considered a "Hard holder" -- his natural point of aim brings him back down onto target once the rifle goes off, recoils and cycles, and comes back on target.
His sling is snug and correct, his eye distance keeps him from getting smacked, and his weapon comes back onto target effortlessly. It was much more challenging to do with a 30-caliber rifle, but the principles are the same if you're shooting an M4, M16, or bolt action.
If you were to stand behind a service rifle team shooter after his 60 or 70-second 10-shot rapid-fire string (shooting two rounds and changing magaiznes to shoot another eight rounds) his coach will ask him how his shots broke. You might hear the shooter say something like "Two shots wide to the right."
Once the targets come up for score the coach will use his scope to take down data and read the score board. If the coach says something like "Seven X, two wide on the right" the shooter's score might be something like 100 with seven X's with two of the tens on the right between mid-ring to just breaking the 10-9 scoring ring.
THAT is hard holding.
Re: Question about hard hold
I was shooting a 1000 yard team match at 29 Palms. We were shooting next to the AMU team. They were using M-14s.
Their combined score was 799 (forgot the X Count.
Thats what I call hard holding.
In case you're wondering, the poor kid that dropped a point caught holy hell.
I was shooting a 1000 yard team match at 29 Palms. We were shooting next to the AMU team. They were using M-14s.
Their combined score was 799 (forgot the X Count.
Thats what I call hard holding.
In case you're wondering, the poor kid that dropped a point caught holy hell.
Re: Question about hard hold
Thanks for the clarification guys. I don't have a fancy rig (Remington 700 SPS Varmint), so I think that I need to temper my expectations slightly. I will continue to work on NPA, trigger control, breathing, etc. before making any more investments on the rifle. Also, I think I have some accuracy gains out there with a properly tuned load. I have always handloaded, but for shooting deer under a feeder at 80 yards. Needless to say, I need to do things like the ladder test to truly find what works in my rifle. Thanks again for the help.
Thanks for the clarification guys. I don't have a fancy rig (Remington 700 SPS Varmint), so I think that I need to temper my expectations slightly. I will continue to work on NPA, trigger control, breathing, etc. before making any more investments on the rifle. Also, I think I have some accuracy gains out there with a properly tuned load. I have always handloaded, but for shooting deer under a feeder at 80 yards. Needless to say, I need to do things like the ladder test to truly find what works in my rifle. Thanks again for the help.
Re: Question about hard hold
Sterling Shooter & kraigWY can testify to this better than I, but it my experience is that the AR15 with its low recoil is usually shot with a much looser softer hold than the M1 and M1A. The 30 cals recoil pushes you around in position a lot more. They do not let you can away with position errors like an AR will. I also think they require more muscle tension and grip (hold) to decrease the amount of NPA change caused by the gun's recoil. I believe that there was/is a need to actually Hold these rifle tighter than with the AR.
This term came from position shooting. Now with the many different shooting disciplines this term often does not apply. Short range Benchrest for group is mostly shot free recoil. shooting off a bipod is different that with a sling in position. Every rifle and cartridge is different. Every rifle seem to have its own preference as to how much "hold" works best. I have some that off a rest like to be squeezed to death and other that say "don't touch me!"
Sterling Shooter & kraigWY can testify to this better than I, but it my experience is that the AR15 with its low recoil is usually shot with a much looser softer hold than the M1 and M1A. The 30 cals recoil pushes you around in position a lot more. They do not let you can away with position errors like an AR will. I also think they require more muscle tension and grip (hold) to decrease the amount of NPA change caused by the gun's recoil. I believe that there was/is a need to actually Hold these rifle tighter than with the AR.
This term came from position shooting. Now with the many different shooting disciplines this term often does not apply. Short range Benchrest for group is mostly shot free recoil. shooting off a bipod is different that with a sling in position. Every rifle and cartridge is different. Every rifle seem to have its own preference as to how much "hold" works best. I have some that off a rest like to be squeezed to death and other that say "don't touch me!"
Re: Question about hard hold
I think you're correct, adding only, grip with enough force to maintain control of the rifle. The key is, of course, consistency; and, usually, consistency is better realized from a muscularly relaxed position.
BTW, back in 2002, during the National Long Range Championships, I shot a 200-9 in match 531, an iron sight 600 yard event. I did not win, and, if fact, only came in 4th place. What was my honor however was to be recognized by my scorer, a young Marine, who said, as I left the firing line, "you're the hardest holder I've ever seen". I was really full of myself having received that complement. Truth was he was indeed a young Marine and had not yet really seen hard holding. Nevertheless, I will remember his kind words as much as I will the score. It really made my day.
I think you're correct, adding only, grip with enough force to maintain control of the rifle. The key is, of course, consistency; and, usually, consistency is better realized from a muscularly relaxed position.
BTW, back in 2002, during the National Long Range Championships, I shot a 200-9 in match 531, an iron sight 600 yard event. I did not win, and, if fact, only came in 4th place. What was my honor however was to be recognized by my scorer, a young Marine, who said, as I left the firing line, "you're the hardest holder I've ever seen". I was really full of myself having received that complement. Truth was he was indeed a young Marine and had not yet really seen hard holding. Nevertheless, I will remember his kind words as much as I will the score. It really made my day.
