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Gunsmithing Question for gunsmiths

#4
Re: Question for gunsmiths


So did you have a rifle built and when it was returned it had the smiths name / logo, or whatever, stamped on it?

I've seen it before on some guns but it would rub me the wrong way if a "smith" didn't at least ask for my okay. I probably would not have an issue with it as long as it wasn't in big block letters or branded into the stock,...but it would be courteous and good customer relations to let you know and ask for your okay prior to doing it.

I know these guys have to make a living and word of mouth and their builds are great advertisement. Don’t get me wrong... I just think getting a customers okay is the prudent thing to do.
 
#5
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Streak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So did you have a rifle built and when it was returned it had the smiths name / logo, or whatever, stamped on it?
</div></div>

You nailed it.

These barrels were also Melonite case hardened... so now what? He is going to try to turn the barrels down to remove the logo, which changes the contour of the barrel if even in a small way... I just do not see a reasonable resolution since it took around six month's to get the barrels in.

Below is the email response to my clearly displeased response. I likened his putting his logo on my rifles to a dog marking it's teritory. I gave him a spec sheet that itemized the work to be done and asked if he had any questions... well you can read the rest:

"First, I do no appreciate the disrespectful tone and approach to our situation. I have done nothing wrong and its a simple case of miscommunication on both ends."

I know it is obvious I am not pleased, and have really tried to throttle it back, apparently not successfully.

From the beginning I stated that these sorts of things get under my skin. My intention is not to insult or berate you, but I am calling it like I see it, and we may have to agree to disagree.

I checked your website before and again to see if I had gotten everything correct, and made extra effort to clearly communicate the specs. I clearly asked if you had any questions or needed any more information, and to ask so that there would be no misunderstandings.

Having never had a custom build, and there being no mention in our correspondence or your website that you engrave your logo, there would be no reason for me to suspect or even have it on my radar that you intended to engrave your logo on my rifles. So to be clear any miscommunication was on your part not mine.

When you answered vaguely regarding if the rifles had been engraved, a red flag immediately went up. To be blunt (not intended as an insult) your credibility with me was immediately called into question. I may not like what the truth of a matter may be, but I sure as hell want the truth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" just about every other custom rifle and pistol shop all etch their makers mark on the barrels on a rifle build. "

"The fact that you made no effort to request not to have your barrels etched before this discussion, and because it's an Industry Wide practice to etch the manufacturing mark on the build, I cannot apologize any more for something that is not my fault or anything I should be sorry for or ashamed of. "

It is irrelevant if everyone is doing it, I did not want nor ask for you to etch your information on my rifles.

Again, the whole concept behind custom is what the customer wants.

999 out of 1000 customers may want the etching, I simply do/did not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1- So it is known who has performed the work, if there is credit to be received or if there is a problem, then they can be contacted. "

If there were any issues, I do not think I would need to look at a permanently etched in logo to remind me of where the work was done and to suggest otherwise is simply insulting.

If I were happy with the rifle and service shouldn't I be the one that decides if I share that information?

If it does not shoot, then it is unlikely that anyone would see it as I doubt that I'd take it out... so a fairly no risk advertising method for you and free (free for you as you did not pay a dime for the parts. I am not trying to be “disrespectful” those are just the facts).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When you got your FN actions, did you call up FN and get angry with them for marking the action with their logo?"

As for FN: They manufactured the part and I bought it from them knowing full well that it was engraved with their information. If you manufactured the rifle then I would suspect that you could do the same and I would make my decision to buy or not with full knowledge. If I had every part manufactures name were engraved on the firearms that I have used to upgrade my firearms they would all look like the firearm equivalents of NASCAR race cars.

The difference is, you did not manufacture nor purchase any of the items, I did. If it is required by law, then by all means be in compliance,

1.Communicate that in advance since it was not on the spec sheet
2.Let's discuss and agree on a place in an inconspicuous location if at all possible, given it is required by law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"2- Its their manufacture mark. I am a class 2 and class 7 manufacture. Make no mistake that I do manufacture firearms, and according to the ATF that is what I am doing when I build a new rifle off of an existing action. "

I only recently noticed on your post of another customers rifle on the **** that you put your logo on his rifle as well. (advertising?)

Both rifles were previously barreled, I believe I had previously communicated that in an email regarding the SPR (you can contact Tim Pierce to confirm if you'd like: 703 288 1292 ext 104 or by email: [email protected] to confirm that it was infact a barreld action (rifle). I was serious when I mentioned that I had spent 6 month's researching this build).

So concerning a rebarrel is that manufacturing too? I seriously doubt that, but I am not an expert and will look into that tonight.

* No it is not, and I provided ample sources including the AFT website.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your vehicle, did you contact Ford or Chevy and tell them they should not have put their logo or model name on the vehicle? This is the same exact scenario with a custom rifle shop putting their logo on their work. "

FYI: Regarding my vehicles: I remove the dealer logo's and stickers.

Again the manufacturer had that on it when I bought the car, the other crap is snuck on after the papers are signed (technically my car at that point) during the final inspection. I had the foresight in this most recent case to request that it not be done, and only noticed after we had the vehicle home that they did it anyways.

I also mentioned my displeasure with the dealer and the Toyota customer service survey telemarketer that called to survey customer satisfaction with our new purchase. I am sure they were not pleased to hear it either.

I do however agree that this is a very similar example of using my property for their advertising and I do not like it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Once they get in, I will properly install the barrels on the actions."

So am I to intrerpret that as the barrels and actions are not scribed with index marks? As I had made my wishes known.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again we will most likely agree to disagree, to you this does not seem to be a big deal, for me this represents a large investment in time and money, and with that are proportionate expectations.

In doing my research I found ample recommendations as to your workmanship, and given the preponderance of positive reviews it was never called into question, nor was that my intention. My main 'bitch' is the engraving for the reasons previously mentioned.

Do not take my comment regarding your vague response a slam, but I was offering my honest feelings regarding your response, and read the email history during this exchange; you have changed from "not sure" to it is your policy to have the 'engraving done before any final finishes'. That sounds pretty definite to me.

I would be nothing but more than happy if I were to eat crow and, if infact you did not engrave the barrels, and it is required by law as you say (even for rebarrels)... I would owe you a huge appology and would gladly offer it to you. Until then I believe we will continue to not see eye to eye on this matter.

I had high hopes, and up till now, and even the longer than quoted wait time was not an issue. Now that I am irritated I have to admit everything bothers me.

This is truely unfortunate as I had hoped to establish a long term working relationship for other projects (allbeit smaller than these) to work with you on in the future, as well as having a vetted vender to refer others to since I am always looking for ways to help small businesses...

FYI: I will also verify if a rebarrel constitutes manufacturing...
 
#7
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude....

Go drink a twelve pack and get yourself laid.......
</div></div>

Good advice, your old lady busy?
 
#9
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Btw very nice quote by the great blind socialist. </div></div>

Unaware of her political views, thanks I'll read up on it. (and fixed it)

I was curious if others would see this the same as I did. I was/am very disapointed. He was chosen over another smith because of his faster (quoted) turn around time, all other things being equal. Now he had not only faild to follow the spec sheet but is behind his quoted build time...

Just frustrated.
 
#10
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Sort of hard to follow exactly what the scope of work done was from the above excerpts so I'll cover what I personaly would expect in either case.

Rebarrel= Would not expect a stamp.

Custom build= Expect and would want the stamp. By this I mean I send Smith X a roached out 30-06 rem 700 and everything but the receiver is replaced.

Those are generic expectations and based off of several years of having guns built or worked on by smiths.

As for the ATF thing I beleive that a build on a virgin action constitues making a new firearm. Builder "X" orders a Surgeon action and builds a rifle from an action never transfered to a non FFL would be responsible for collection of excise tax if applicable upon sale to non ffl (customer). If the action is a donor off a rifle previously sold to an individual everything can be replaced except receiver and its not new firearm in the eyes of the ATF. I'm sure theres more to it than that and I may be a bit off on the specifics but thats my understanding. Also there are exemptions if less than 50 are produced annualy

"Manufacturer. Includes any person who produces a taxable article from scrap, salvage, or junk material, or from new or raw material, by processing, manipulating, or changing the form of an article or by combining or assembling two or more articles. The term also includes a “producer” and an “importer.” Under certain circumstances, as where a person manufactures or produces a taxable article for another person who furnishes materials under an agreement whereby the person who furnished the materials retains title thereto and to the finished article, the person for whom the taxable article is manufactured or produced, and not the person who actually manufactures or produces it, will be considered the manufacturer."
 
#11
Re: Question for gunsmiths

To me this falls in the category of a petty nuisance. Even if it did bother me which it wouldn't I doubt I'd even notice it after a range trip or two. Of course it would be harder to see under some krylon. The months of wait time to get it fixed would bother me far more than the logo on the side. But like you said 999 out of 1000 wouldn't care. Seems you'll have to wait several hundred more responses to get one that will satisfy you. Sorry for dissatisfaction sir.

My advice: Don't sweat the small stuff.
 
#12
Re: Question for gunsmiths

If I were the gunsmith, I'd give Rock Smith his money back and NEVER ever have anything to do with him again. I have discovered in this life that, no matter what you do, you can't make everybody happy. In fact, I'd advise any gunsmith out there to do the same with this type person. Anal...wooohaaa. FWIW...having the GAP logo engraved on my rifles means better resale later. In fact, knowing the gunsmith, caliber, chamber information, barrel manufacturer...all that means a lot in later years when you die and your family (if you have any) needs to sell. JMHO
 
#13
Re: Question for gunsmiths

FNP brings up a good point with regards to resale and the stamp. The right stamp demands better resale.

Going back to my original reply, a rebarrel should not have a stamp IMO to protect the reputation of the smiths name. I dont feel the scope of the work justifies a stamp as thats only one part of what goes into building a custom rig. You can have the best barrel ever made put on an action that was untrue with dicked up lugs, off center scope base holes, shitty trigger and no bedding, if I made a living off my name I wouldnt put it on a project such as this because it probably will have dissapointing results. On the flip side I would not turn the job down either if the customer understood all of the above and was insistent thats all he wants done...it just wouldnt have my name/logo stampped on it.
 
#14
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Austan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems you'll have to wait several hundred more responses to get one that will satisfy you. Sorry for dissatisfaction sir.

My advice: Don't sweat the small stuff. </div></div>

Nope, not at all. I value many of the opinions here and would not have posted if I didn't. Thanks for your input.
 
#15
Re: Question for gunsmiths

I engrave all barrels with the company name. I dont see what the big deal is here. I have never considered, nor have I ever asked a customer to check or validate the engraving.
In all the builds I ordered before I started chambering barrels I never discussed what the engraving would read. If I had a request (which I have), I mentioned it.

If I had to collect info on font, italics, where to start and stop, etc, I would raise my prices for the PITA factor

this reminds me of the person who wanted to sue McDonalds because they spilled hot coffee on themself


 
#16
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugholes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this reminds me of the person who wanted to sue McDonalds because they spilled hot coffee on themself</div></div>

LOL had to laugh at this, I actually know the lawyer that won the case.

So do you stamp for just a rebarrel or only on full builds...just wondering what the general practice is.

BTW cant wait to spin up that Oby barrel I got from you thanks again!
 
#18
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Full builds, my parts or yours, logo and caliber are etched.

Partial builds, my parts or yours, caliber only is etched.



</div></div>

This is my practice as well.

I would say that if you chose a 'smith that frequents this site, you made a decision based on a reputation for doing good work. Seems pretty petty to argue over such a small detail that in no way defaces anything and likely increases the value based on the reputation of the 'smith/shop that did the work.

Question is, after this post, do you think there's a 'smith on here that will accept any work from you?
 
#19
Re: Question for gunsmiths

If I were the owner I would want the BBL signed, And if I were the smith I would want to sign it, It's a CYA on all sides, Can't think of any Art or paintings worth a damn that aren't signed come to think of it!

Besides who the hell cares, shoot it and focus on the far end, the down down range end. UNLESS....it's a "safe" queen, and all it does is look purty, and aimed at Hajji's on the TV. And looked out the apartment window.
 
#20
Re: Question for gunsmiths

I would be dissapointed if there was no logo stamp on my builds. I think that is going to be the popular opinion on this. It is a very common practice with the higher end gunsmiths and is considered to be a badge of honor/ status. I don't think your smith owes you anything, certainly not anything monetary.
 
#21
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both rifles were previously barreled, I believe I had previously communicated that in an email regarding the SPR (you can contact Tim Pierce to confirm if you'd like: 703 288 1292 ext 104 or by email: [email protected] to confirm that it was infact a barreld action (rifle). <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I was serious when I mentioned that I had spent 6 month's researching this build)</span></span></span></div></div>

So you're telling me that in the 6 months you spent researching the build you had not figured out that the shop mark was standard practice for something that was rebuilt from the ground up?

This sounds suspciously like you knew exactly what you were getting into, and with your claimed history of HATING marks such as these, you would have easily thought about it in the 6 months that you were researching your decision. I suspect you planned the petty argument and difficulty in satisfying you for free work.




If the barrels come from the factory, and are discarded, then it is a re-barrel job and that is pretty simple.

If the stock, the sights, the magazines, etc., etc., etc are replaced as well you're now well into that gray area of "is it a gunsmithing job or a remanufacturing job?"

Until about 6 months ago there was little clarification on this from the ATF and when the finally DID clarify it, the notice was (as usual) poorly publicized on their website and buried amongst the other things they put up there.

I would be surprised if even 1/4 of the custom rifle builders who hold Type 7's are aware that they can now do almost all of their normal work with "just" a Type 1 now.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These barrels were also Melonite case hardened... so now what? He is going to try to turn the barrels down to remove the logo, which changes the contour of the barrel if even in a small way... I just do not see a reasonable resolution since it took around six month's to get the barrels in.</div></div>

How about you put up a picture of the offending barrel mark so that we can see how deep this is. If I'm understanding it right, this is likely a cosmetic etch or engraving no more than 0.007-0.010" deep AT WORST.

I guarantee that if I took a 1.200" and a 1.207" diameter bar and sat them on the table 3 feet from you, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart with a regularity that beats the statistical odds of simply guessing.

Melonite on the outside of a barrel does absolutely nothing anyway. The whole idea behind the marketing for melonite is a bore treatment for wear resistance. Since when does the outer surface on the barrel shank "wear out". I have a pile of barrels sitting at my dad's machine shop which have roached throats but the outside looks no different from the new tube sitting for my next rebarrel.

I'd also be surprised if the builder you're talking about will back the accuracy guarantee that many carry here if the barrels have been melonited. I certainly would not. My course of action is to test fire and proof the platform during break in, after that, if you must really have the snake oil have at it, but don't expect a guarantee that those 6 month lead time barrels aren't going to get F'd up somehow during that post process that involves changing the crystal structure and stress state of the barrel steel.

The depth and soundness of these complaints you have are akin to a 3 year old complaining that they wanted a cookie monster band-aide instead of the elmo band-aide. You seem to be LOOKING for something to complain about, and I suspect it is a planned argument in an effort to avoid paying the tab.


I think Mr. Bush nailed the head on this one, especially the part in <span style="font-weight: bold">bold</span>:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems pretty petty to argue over such a small detail that in no way defaces anything and likely increases the value based on the reputation of the 'smith/shop that did the work.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Question is, after this post, do you think there's a 'smith on here that will accept any work from you?</span></div></div>
 
#22
Re: Question for gunsmiths

I want the smith to etch the rifles I have built. Why???? Because it is saying that the smith takes pride in his work.

But I'm always here to help the someone in need

so

I have 2 barreled actions

Rem 700 308 sendero contour
Mauser 3006 #4 contour

if your barreled action was chambered by a smith that frequents the hide I'll swap you even!
smile.gif
 
#23
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude....

Go drink a twelve pack and get yourself laid.......
</div></div>

Good advice, your old lady busy? </div></div>

After reading this thread it's likely that you don't have what it would take.

Really dude, you're being silly about a silly issue.......
 
#24
Re: Question for gunsmiths

As already said, but any work I do involving chambering / barrel replacement, action truing or replacement always gets the etching. For 1 reason, the caliber, and secondly the new ATF rules on marking. I have my 07 manufacturing lic and some things an 01 does is technically in violation. I found this out the hard way. The builder actually was right in doing it without asking, but if it was so important to you you should have made it clear at the begining you did NOT want the marking and he would have found a way to accomodate you.
 
#26
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keydiverfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if it was so important to you you should have made it clear at the begining you did NOT want the marking and he would have found a way to accomodate you. </div></div>

Thanks Woody. That is one of the points I made. I had provided a detailed spec sheet of what I wanted done. This being my first gunsmith builds I didn.t know what I didn't know.
 
#27
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So you're telling me that in the 6 months you spent researching the build you had not figured out that the shop mark was standard practice for something that was rebuilt from the ground up?

This sounds suspciously like you knew exactly what you were getting into, and with your claimed history of HATING marks such as these, you would have easily thought about it in the 6 months that you were researching your decision. I suspect you planned the petty argument and difficulty in satisfying you for free work.

</div></div>

Yes, I spent six month's. I researched triggers, actions, heat treat of the actions and barrels, coatings (Cerecoat, Duracoat and ION Bond), corrosion resistance and treatment of firearms by Melonite. Barrel harmonics and deflection of different profiles/contours. Barrel weights, and velocity gains/losses for a given length, etc... Calibers and accuracy, available components,and barrel life. This is by no means an exhaustive list of what I researched but it does give some perspective of where my focus was and that I knew exactly what I wanted. During the prebuild communication he expressed no issues with my specs or doing exactly what was on the build spec sheets.

I never claimed to be perfect or to know it all. It was a simple question of: is it normal and is it required by law to put your logo on a rifle. Normal is debatable and no it is not required by law.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-10.htm

A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when <span style="font-weight: bold">he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts</span>. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.



In fact it poses problems for law enforcement.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-5.pdf

* Oh I missed this on my first read: "you planned the petty argument and difficulty in satisfying you for free work." Now you are being an instigator! I have email and I had discussed on the phone with him that I was going to pay full price and for him to stop where he is at and I'll finish the projects myself. Your comment is slanderous and unfounded I will PM you his name so you can call him yourself. I didn't post who he is because there is no reason to hang his ass out there, I simply wanted to solicite opinions from others as it seemed odd that he did this and I could not find legal documentation for what he had claimed...
 
#28
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

* Oh I missed this on my first read: "you planned the petty argument and difficulty in satisfying you for free work." Now you are being an instigator! <span style="font-weight: bold">I have email and I had discussed on the phone with him that I was going to pay full price and for him to stop where he is at and I'll finish the projects myself.</span> Your comment is slanderous and unfounded I will PM you his name so you can call him yourself. I didn't post who he is because there is no reason to hang his ass out there, I simply wanted to solicite opinions from others as it seemed odd that he did this and I could not find legal documentation for what he had claimed... </div></div>


So you have other emails but you didn't include them above. You've provided only part of the story then... I can't say that I'm surprised.

The legal documentation is easy to find and everything you're talking about is quite common practice. It's harder to find someone who doesn't put a mark on the barrel because they would be in violation of the law.

It doesn't sound from even the partial email conversations above (which may or may not have been modified before posting them... we have no idea) that the builder in question ever said that he would not make it right. It sounds like he told you that he's not going to eat 2 barrels and 2 install jobs for a detail that has absolutely no effect on performance AND that you didn't specify from the beginning.

Lesson learned on your part, next time you get something done by a custom builder ask him to mark the barrel on the underside for the stock to cover it up. It covers their ass legally and your feelings of abhorrence at markings have been satiated.
 
#29
Re: Question for gunsmiths

I will not speak to legality because I am not 100% certain what the current requirements are.

Regarding the standards of practice:
For years I have been to various ranges, matches and competitions and have seen hundreds upon hundreds of custom rifles from many dozens of gunsmiths/builders. The following comments summarize my observations. ALL quality builders mark their work when doing a complete build and many mark even when only completing a barreled action. Some but a relative few will mark a rebarrel only job. <span style="font-weight: bold">(on edit the rebarrel comment pertains to doing a rebarrel job on an action that they have not trued, checked or otherwise feel confident that the original factory work or work of others is up to par; most builders will mark a rebarrel job when they have done the original work or have gone over things previously)</span>

This may not have been what you wanted but this IS the de facto practice in the industry.
 
#30
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Every rebarrel I have gotten has had the a gunsmith/company logo, personal stamp under barrel and caliber on the barrel. Not a big deal. Doesn't effect the performance of the rifle and not overly noticable visually.

Why is it a big deal? I don't ever remember seeing a rifle factory or custom which wasn't marked in some way.
 
#31
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you have other emails but you didn't include them above. You've provided only part of the story then... I can't say that I'm surprised.

The legal documentation is easy to find and everything you're talking about is quite common practice. It's harder to find someone who doesn't put a mark on the barrel because they would be in violation of the law.

It doesn't sound from even the partial email conversations above (which may or may not have been modified before posting them... we have no idea) that the builder in question ever said that he would not make it right. It sounds like he told you that he's not going to eat 2 barrels and 2 install jobs for a detail that has absolutely no effect on performance AND that you didn't specify from the beginning.

Lesson learned on your part, next time you get something done by a custom builder ask him to mark the barrel on the underside for the stock to cover it up. It covers their ass legally and your feelings of abhorrence at markings have been satiated. </div></div>

I had provided a clear spec sheet of what I wanted done. I also explained that I wanted/expected nothing more or less. Based on this and his turn around time quote I chose him. He knowing all of this on the front end chose to accept the project. He then unilaterally chose to deviate from the agreement.

Further, I never allowed any "discount" to be on the table. I told him that he would be paid in full, and to simply return my components so that I can finish my builds. So your assumption is wrong again. <span style="font-weight: bold">I PM'd his contact information to you so that you can ask him for yourself before you start smearing my good name.</span>

I have nothing against the smith. He is a pleasant enough fellow, and his other projects have recieved favorable reviews. I only take issue with deviating from the specs (with no prior communication). As previously discussed with him, if it is a legal requirement, then by all means let's be in compliance, but let's discuss how it can be done without being immediately visible.

I see other smith's that build customs and stamp their log on custom builds. It never occured to me that smithing would also require a stamp.

Although many opinions have said that if I did not want a specific piece of work done I should have said so, but that really does not seem to be very practical or realistic to anticipate everything that can be done and say not to.

I did however provide a detailed spec sheet, using the nomenclature directly from his website to create the spec sheet. No where on the website (his old one or the new one) did it mention that he etches his logo on all his work.

My rifle, my components, my money, so my specs... seemed simple enough to me.
 
#32
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is it a big deal? I don't ever remember seeing a rifle factory or custom which wasn't marked in some way. </div></div>

Personal preference is all. Why buy a white, red or black car?

As previously mentioned if manufactured, then I have a choice to buy or not. When I provide all parts that I selected and paid for, then I really do not care to have someone etch their information on my property... just personal preference, neither right or wrong.
 
#34
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Guess you learned a lesson for the future then but in my opinion you are making way to big a deal about everything.
 
#35
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As previously mentioned if manufactured, then I have a choice to buy or not. When I provide all parts that I selected and paid for, then I really do not care to have someone etch their information on my property... just personal preference, neither right or wrong. </div></div>

Remind me to never sell you one of my knives....

I stamp my initials, my town/state, and a steel identifier.

Maker's marks.........
 
#36
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Just thinking out loud after reading the whole thread... Could it be he wanted to take credit for the work after it was done by a good gunsmith? Now he's going to finish the job himself since the spec sheet wasn't followed. Why didn't he just do the work himself if he was able to in the first place. Something seems off about this whole thing.
 
#37
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I PM'd his contact information to you so that you can ask him for yourself before you start smearing my good name.</span></div></div>

I have not received any PM's from you. I've checked twice since you have mentioned it twice now in the thread.



I'm not sure I particularly care about who did the work, it's clear that it was a builder from this site and judging by the comments about being a Type 7 FFL and Type 2 SOT that narrows it down to about 6-8 builders who frequent here. I know all of them mark the barrels in the legally required manner so as to avoid any unwarranted attention by the ATF. Your complaints strike me as one of the more ridiculous issues I've seen around here in a long time.
 
#38
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As previously mentioned if manufactured, then I have a choice to buy or not. When I provide all parts that I selected and paid for, then I really do not care to have someone etch their information on my property... just personal preference, neither right or wrong. </div></div>

Remind me to never sell you one of my knives....

I stamp my initials, my town/state, and a steel identifier.

Maker's marks......... </div></div>


Seriously? Did you not read the thread? I do not have an issue with buying something from the manufacturer with their mark on it, and if I do I simply do not buy it.

A better analogy is: I seriously doubt you put your mark on a customers knife that you sharpen though.
 
#39
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I PM'd his contact information to you so that you can ask him for yourself before you start smearing my good name.</span></div></div>

I have not received any PM's from you. I've checked twice since you have mentioned it twice now in the thread.



I'm not sure I particularly care about who did the work, it's clear that it was a builder from this site and judging by the comments about being a Type 7 FFL and Type 2 SOT that narrows it down to about 6-8 builders who frequent here. I know all of them mark the barrels in the legally required manner so as to avoid any unwarranted attention by the ATF. Your complaints strike me as one of the more ridiculous issues I've seen around here in a long time. </div></div>

I will send again.
 
#40
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jammer61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just thinking out loud after reading the whole thread... Could it be he wanted to take credit for the work after it was done by a good gunsmith? Now he's going to finish the job himself since the spec sheet wasn't followed. Why didn't he just do the work himself if he was able to in the first place. Something seems off about this whole thing. </div></div>

Yes, he stated that he wanted to take credit for it... (I believe my second post on this thread).


There are other issues with the build. I did not want to buy a barrel vice and action wrench as having him do it there would be more cost effective. Also for him to pull the barrels and to send it to me for shipping for Melonite treatement and ION bond coating would be expensive in shipping.

As it stands now I want to salvage what I can, and simply am not happy. So I have bought the barrel vise and action wrench, and will simply finish the work myself. Turning this into a personal attack on me is hardly constructive.

Again I have no ill will towards the smith, it simply did not work out.

Hope this clears everything up.
 
#42
Re: Question for gunsmiths

I believe your making a mountain out of a mole hill. First if you had done the research you say you did, then you would have noticed all of the engravings on the majority of custom builds, re-chambers, etc. It sounds to me as though you just want something to complain about. You'll get allot further with sugar then you will with salt when dealing with people. As has already been mentioned, if you choose a smith recommended from this site, you appear to be complaining just to complain. It saddens me to see you trying to smear someones name because you didnt ask all the right questions or a small miscommunication. I assume that these rifles will be safe queens because god forbid they get a dirt or scratch on them from actually using them.
 
#43
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it standard proceedure to put your logo on a customer's rifle when doing a trueing and rebarrel on the customers supplied components?
</div></div>
Yes.


In my opinion, remachining an action and doing a complete barrel install on it starting with a blank is invasive enough to expect almost 100% of the shops to mark the finished work with their shop I.D. of some sort.

It is my opinion that even if you sent 25 pages of explicit instructions on your "specs" to the builder, but you did not specifically request the omission of shop markings, you are out of bounds on this one.
 
#44
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">before you start smearing my good name.</span></div></div>

You're doing a fine job of that all by yourself.

What did you expect to gain by this post? Did you think everyone would pile onto your soapbox about some strange idiosyncrasy about makers marks?

You've given enough information that made the task of figuring out who did the work very easy, which makes this whole matter even more ridiculous. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better guy to deal with (and his work is impeccable) and this is how you conduct business? What a joke....

After looking at your linkedin file, there's nothing that states you have the capability of finishing this on your own. Are you going to approach another 'smith to have the work completed and start the drama all over again?


 
#45
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">before you start smearing my good name.</span></div></div>

You're doing a fine job of that all by yourself.

What did you expect to gain by this post? Did you think everyone would pile onto your soapbox about some strange idiosyncrasy about makers marks?

You've given enough information that made the task of figuring out who did the work very easy, which makes this whole matter even more ridiculous. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better guy to deal with (and his work is impeccable) and this is how you conduct business? What a joke....

After looking at your linkedin file, there's nothing that states you have the capability of finishing this on your own. Are you going to approach another 'smith to have the work completed and start the drama all over again?


</div></div>

+1 Quoted for truth. - Well said Mike, I couldnt have said it better.
 
#46
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe your making a mountain out of a mole hill. First if you had done the research you say you did, then you would have noticed all of the engravings on the majority of custom builds, re-chambers, etc. It sounds to me as though you just want something to complain about. You'll get allot further with sugar then you will with salt when dealing with people. As has already been mentioned, if you choose a smith recommended from this site, you appear to be complaining just to complain. It saddens me to see you trying to smear someones name because you didnt ask all the right questions or a small miscommunication. I assume that these rifles will be safe queens because god forbid they get a dirt or scratch on them from actually using them. </div></div>

No one was ever mentioned, I asked for opinions and recieved them.

He is being very decent about it, I am just very disappointed. I don't want to smear his name, hence the lack of mentioning who he is, rather wanted opinion to see if I was being unreasonable.

As it stands I feel somewhat vindicated and hopefully he can make it right.

And in an attempt to be fair, he is being paid full price even though he is not finishing all the work (at my request). At this point I think it is best that we part ways.
 
#47
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Look Dave,

There are tons of folks here that are either gunsmiths, or have had custom rifles built by gunsmiths, so this is the best place to have your question answered. Yes it is customary for a smith to engrave the rifle.

You have said that you spent 6 months researching your build, making you supposedly an expert and yet you never thought to ask about engraving? In all that extensive "research", did you ever actually look at a custom build? If you had, you would have seen the maker's marks. Guess that means you didnt actually shoot one either. Just another armchair expert.

Your handling of the situation makes you look like an idiot in the eyes of the gunsmith. And your airing of the situation makes you look like an idiot to the rest of us. What you started with appeared to be a ligit question but your continued defense of your position is killing your cred.

Lookin forward to shootin some local matches with ya to see how you and your rifles work together.

If you feel "somewhat vindicated" based on the overwhelming negative responses you have received here, well then you may be beyond help.
 
#48
Re: Question for gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rockfish Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe your making a mountain out of a mole hill. First if you had done the research you say you did, then you would have noticed all of the engravings on the majority of custom builds, re-chambers, etc. It sounds to me as though you just want something to complain about. You'll get allot further with sugar then you will with salt when dealing with people. As has already been mentioned, if you choose a smith recommended from this site, you appear to be complaining just to complain. It saddens me to see you trying to smear someones name because you didnt ask all the right questions or a small miscommunication. I assume that these rifles will be safe queens because god forbid they get a dirt or scratch on them from actually using them. </div></div>

No one was ever mentioned, I asked for opinions and recieved them.

He is being very decent about it, I am just very disappointed. I don't want to smear his name, hence the lack of mentioning who he is, rather wanted opinion to see if I was being unreasonable.

As it stands I feel somewhat vindicated and hopefully he can make it right.

And in an attempt to be fair, he is being paid full price even though he is not finishing all the work (at my request). At this point I think it is best that we part ways. </div></div>

As Skunkworks has said, its very easy to figure out who your talking about with a few simple pieces of information that have been posted.
As I have already said, youre nitpicking just to pick. I understand the point youre trying to get across but you you need to take responsibility for the fact that you did not ask the right questions or give all of your requirements to the builder and that is your fault, not his. If this is something that bothers you so much, you should have known to bring this to the builders attention ahead of time.

I would venture to guess that 90% of the builders on here, after seeing this thread, will not want to do business with you in the future. Furthermore, I suspect that many would have already told you to take a hike and return your parts as is due to your childish attitude about something so trivial.

The fact of the matter is that you did not give the relevant information to the builder ahead of time and now you are trying to place blame elsewhere for your slip-up. Based on how argumentative you are regarding the situation, I would venture to say this is probably not the first time you have put yourself in this situation.

You made the mistake, so quit complaining, accept it, and move forward. I hope your smith skills mature fast because I doubt anyone from here will want to work with you in the future.



 
#49
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Dave,

Since you've chosen to send scathing PM's and then quickly remove yourself from the topic after making personal attacks on my character here is the jist of my response.

The builder who you're currently upset about is not the only person to whom you've made similar accusations. Several in the industry have now heard about your dealings over a chassis which you ordered and then found issue with on a previously unspecified detail.

Your professionalism is undoubtedly non-existent and while you tout being objective and impersonal you are clearly anything but that.

As to me being able to verify what you posted above here's a snippet:

The last 1/3 of the emails talking about how you'd like to be compensated for this issue were left out. In a nutshell this is it:

You proposed that he would redo the work, on his dime, with new blanks that he paid for while you take possession of the initial work and shoot it for an undisclosed time and number of rounds.

That renders the barrels and work as used and unfit for sale, so the builder eats the better part of $1600 because you did not communicate your wishes in the beginning. That is 100% your problem, not his.

His solution was to verify that the melonite process could be done a second time if he needed to cut the logo off and reposition it. Your aversion to that was the barrel harmonics and barrel contour would change and might possibly affect the performance of the rifle and the aesthetics.

(Note my original comments about legality of marking, being able to visualize the difference in 2 bar stock diameters, et al.)

Additionally, your contract date is 28 Oct 2010 and the original build sheet says nothing regarding your OCD infatuation with a maker's mark or withholding such a stamp.

The latest ATF Ruling that governs this has been made AFTER your contract date. Therefore, you agreed to have the builder conduct the work prior to any knowledge that the ATF would update their ruling on what constitutes manufacturing vs. gunsmithing.

You have already admitted that "I didn't know what I didn't know".

That is not the fault of the builder, that is your fault. Man up, take responsibility for it and move on.




 
#50
Re: Question for gunsmiths

Oh, Thank God, another narcassistic Obsessive Compulsive gun owner and internet user!!!! Given your expertise, knowledge and self proclaimed smithing/machining skills I see absolutely no reason you chose to send off YOUR items without supervision throughout the process?

Reading your comments, bitches and choice of words leads me ta thinkin you must be another fellow with way more education than common sense, 6 flippin months 'researching'????? What the fuck, I have had marriages that didn't last that long, well almost!
smile.gif


Your cautious choice of words tends to lean me towards your NOT having Richard as your first name but more like a 'Dick'!!! But I have been mistaken in the past.

Edit to add...Send me them Sumbitches, I'll take the Makita and grind that well placed POS "advertising" off and use my number stamps to write whatever you want on them. Will make it look like it came out of a pyramid and is 'rare'!!!! Fucks sake what the hell is wrong with people nowdays? Guess a bitchfest is more relaxing????? Oh, shipping both ways is on you! Hell you got money to burn but not 6 months to consider my free offer!!!!!!


Carry On, I have spoken all that I am allowed! Back under my rock.....
 
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