Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

mrad41

Private
Minuteman
Sep 29, 2010
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0
30
Texas
I was just wondering what the military special operations actully use submachine guns for. Are their specific scenarios in which they are used? If so what are they?

Also, what features would you be looking for in the next generation of sub guns?
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else wh

Subguns are generally used in confined spaces where high velocity rifle rounds will punch through walls and injure civilians. So, mostly in delicate cqb situations. They tend to be quieter when suppressed so they work better in stealth-clear situations.

Like aj said though, shorty 556 rifles have taken over lot of the sub gun duties over the last few years
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else wh

My vague understanding was many SWAT and other "special" teams were specifically going to the 5.56 round because it had LESS penetration and potential collateral damage potential than the traditional subgun pistol rounds. I think the rationale was because the 5.56 rounds tended to fragment easier when hitting drywall, studs and concrete than the FMJ pistol rounds which would stay more intact once it got through the wall.

edit: I'm neither a SF or SWAT guy, so take the above with a grain of salt.

 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else wh

also just about anyone, including the BG can buy body armor. 556 will give you a bit more penetration than the pistol cartridge when it comes to body armor.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrad41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just wondering what the military special operations actully use submachine guns for.

<span style="color: #000099">Foreign countries were threat level is not too high but you're authorized to carry weapons. Sticking a MP5 in your pack doesn't take up much room.</span>

Are their specific scenarios in which they are used? If so what are they?

<span style="color: #000099">Look above.</span>

Also, what features would you be looking for in the next generation of sub guns?

<span style="color: #000099">That they shoot a rifle round. Someone has already mentioned Mk18's. They are great and don't take up much more room than your subgun.</span></div></div>

DSC01237.jpg
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

mk18s the ticket. More firepower and less overpenetration than an mp5.
Bitch is loud though. Better have some good earpro indoors.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

Only thing I like a 9mm subgun over a 5.56 CQB weapon is less noise. For PD work I used to hear the 5.56 would penetrate too much, then we did tests 147 grain 9mm versus 55 Soft Point 5.56. Guess what 9mm went through more shit. Except 147s was stopped by soft amror where 55 soft point went in onside, turned insides to mush and stopped

Noise is the only thing as even with suppressor 5.56 is louder. Without a suppressor 5.56 from short bbl is memorable
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, think beyond 5.56mm -- think of a short gun in the AAC/Remington .300 BlackOut
wink.gif


A specific purpose built long gun subsonic round...

That will kill the SD's



</div></div>

Our new MPW in 300 AAC BLACKOUT in the PDW configuration was designed to replace the MP5-SD...as small, 2.5lbs. lighter, quieter.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca


The Mk18 has better range and penetration than the MP5, but is loud. The MP7 has the penetration, but not so much in the way of terminal effects - and cannot do good subsonic ammo. The MP5 is defeated by soft armor and not very accurate at longer ranges.

Also 300 AAC BLACKOUT has much longer range, good penetration, and much more accuracy potential. And it can do full auto subsonic with high-mass bullets. With full power ammo, it duplicated AK ballistics - another thing an MP5 cannot do.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Special Forces guys do not visit gun forums. </div></div>
Oh, yeah?
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

Subguns are still being used for hostage rescue, urban missions outside of designated war zones, covert missions, maritime operations in very close quarters where ricochets are a large threat (oil rigs, ships, etc), and other situations.
It's on a per-unit basis. There is likely no S.O.P. that dictates when a subgun must be used. Each unit will use them according to their own needs, or their mission demands. Additionally, certain units use them more than others. SEALs are more likely to use subguns than Para Rescue or SF (aka Green Berets), since they work more in open environments like jungles, fields, mountains, etc. But again, it's up to the unit.

Subguns of the future are basically here. Compact weapons that have the size, recoil and magazine capacity of a pistol round, but the power of a rifle round. The FN P90 was a big asset to this for European SpecOps. The HK MP7A1 is another option that has emerged. These are weapons that can penetrate body armor at up to 200m, but have the handling and feel benefits of a pistol round.
There is a unit out there that does extensive undercover/covert recon and surveillance in urban areas. The operators of said unit regularly carry hidden pistols and HK MP7A1s or MP5K-PDWs.

As has been pointed out, rifles like the Mk18 and other SBR variants are effectively usurping the subgun roles. Still, there is a place for the subgun. Such is why SWAT teams still employ subguns. This includes elite teams like the FBI HRT and LAPD SWAT.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once used an MP5SD in combat to shoot at someone very quickly. But I did not shoot nearly as quick as I missed. I'm not sure that out of the 2 mags on full auto I even managed to hit the air. It was an embarrassing ,but thankfully not deadly lesson. I learned to take a real gun to a street fight. </div></div>

So you either opted to be in combat with a weapon you clearly were not profficient or experienced with (in full auto none the less).....or you learned to miss with a bigger, more powerful round.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once used an MP5SD in combat to shoot at someone very quickly. But I did not shoot nearly as quick as I missed. I'm not sure that out of the 2 mags on full auto I even managed to hit the air. It was an embarrassing ,but thankfully not deadly lesson. I learned to take a real gun to a street fight. </div></div>

So you either opted to be in combat with a weapon you clearly were not profficient or experienced with (in full auto none the less).....or you learned to miss with a bigger, more powerful round.

</div></div>
I would venture to guess that there were quite a few more variables going on at the time of the incident:)
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once used an MP5SD in combat to shoot at someone very quickly. But I did not shoot nearly as quick as I missed. I'm not sure that out of the 2 mags on full auto I even managed to hit the air. It was an embarrassing ,but thankfully not deadly lesson. I learned to take a real gun to a street fight. </div></div>

So you either opted to be in combat with a weapon you clearly were not profficient or experienced with (in full auto none the less).....or you learned to miss with a bigger, more powerful round.

</div></div>
I would venture to guess that there were quite a few more variables going on at the time of the incident:) </div></div>

I would certainly be glad to hear it. Because on closer inspection, some of JJ's posts aren't adding up to me.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

....and apparently i'm not the only one:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My partner and I were the winners of the International sniper comp 2010. I shot a 20" OBR with a Surefire break, a Magpul CTR stock and the new Nightforce 3.5-15 x 50 FFP with a Horus H58 reticle, My partner shot a 16" OBR with a Surefire break, a Magpul PRS stock and a horusvision 5-20x50 Falcon with a H37 reticle. The guns performed flawlessly throughout the competition. I didn't clean my bore once all week and my partner ran a bore snake through his gun twice after he fired a blank round through it on the stalk. I have no complaints at all with the OBR. Shoot both and see what you think. The truth is any gun that shoots sub MOA groups and is comfortable in your hands is going to be your best bet. I will continue to shoot Larue products until someone comes out with something better. </div></div>

Are you Hoymeyer or Giannelli?



Edit:
Looking at your other posts, and the claim made in this one, I think you should get in touch with lowlight, with a photocopy of the front of your ID card. If you are who you say you are, I will apologize profusely. However, some things aren't really adding up in my mind. </div></div>
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

KevinB-KAC Online content
Sergeant

Registered: 04/03/10
Posts: 120
Loc: Florida, USA
One correction, this year with the AISC they broke the comp into two sections, Military (7.62mm or 5.56mm) and Open (no cal restrictions)

Both of the Range 37 team that took top Military (Ed and Chance) shot OBR's

The USASOC team that took top Open had an OBR as a spotter gun.
_________________________
Kevin S. Boland
Military/Government Product Liaison
Knight's Armament Company
701 Columbia Blvd
Titusville, Florida 32780
(321) 607-9900 ext 1365
[email protected]
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

as stated above the use of the mk18 has pretty much axed the use of sub guns.. now many companies are making special calibers which work better out of the short barrel lengths used my the spec ops and contractors, for cqb or vehicle operations..

the 300 AAC BLACKOUT and the knight PDW "complete weapon system" to name a few, or the use of 7.62x39mm in a short barreled ar..

having used a short barreled 5.56mm and seen the lack of penetration when engaging targets at longer range, i'm glad that companies are stepping it up with harder hitting calibers out of shorter barrels..

anyone who has had to try to swing a m16 around in a vehicle or even an m4 knows the need for the shorter barreled ar's
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

yes, yes, yes, I realize I'm the only one here to make a bad decision in combat. I was actually quite familiar with the weapon, however the range was too great and the lack of muzzle flash doesn't really strike fear into the heart of anyone. I realized quickly that no matter how much crap you are carrying or how high the wall you are to climb is, it's still better to carry my shorty saw, or 203. lesson learned. and even though it's not easy for all of us A type personalities to admit that we made a mistake, I believe an honest question deserves an honest answer. No need to lie about our exploits here, I mean it's not like there's a piece of ass on the line or free beer. those are worth lying for
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I mean it's not like there's a piece of ass on the line or free beer. those are worth lying for.</div></div>

Now, <span style="font-style: italic">that's</span> funny.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a lot of FAIL in here.... </div></div>

Please discuss why. To say there is a lot of "fail" doesn't actually fix or correct anything. So, what's wrong?

 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bettendorf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Special Forces guys do not visit gun forums. </div></div>
Oh, yeah? </div></div>

South Park characters on the other hand do...

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Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

I can't speak for the military community, but during my time with our TAC Unit, we used MP5SD's. We began to transition to the Colt 6933's not to long after I was transferred in. The MP5SD's were very compact and quiet, and over penetration was a very serious concern for command regarding the new Colts. Nothing worse than clearing a shotgun double that was built in the 1920's with paper thin walls in the inner city. It took considerable testing because at the time it was believed that the rifle round would overpenetrate compared to the 9mm. Afterward though, the realization of the benefits of the .556 over the 9mm were very apparent. Unfortunately, most of preferred the MP5SD simply because our department had not purchased suppressors for the Colt's, and they were loud as hell in confined spaces. Since my departure from the TAC Unit, the Department made the investment in suppressors, and the MP5SD's were relegated to the Narcotics Bureau for their warrant guys.

I can say that my love affair with the H&K was short lived once I started becoming familar with the 6933. Even more so since I entered civilian life because I have reacquainted myself with the SBR.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About 98% of the people that come on a gun forum to talk about their SF days and how much "operating in foreign areas" that they have done are usually 17 year old obese kids that only have a computer to be friends with.

The limited amount of guys that I know that ARE the real deal SF guys do NOT talk about it at will. They keep their mouth shut unless someone directly asks them or they feel their opinion needs to be voiced. It absolutely makes me sick to know some ass clown in his mothers basement covered in orange cheetos dust and crums is trying to pass as an Elite Warrior. Thats BS and you deserve to be punched.

I have a MK18 upper on a registered lower. Does that make me a Navy SEAL as well? NO

Bettendorf - I actually believe you for some reason. You other guys.... not to much. So when I say there is a lot of FAIL in this thread, its to all the posers trying to act like they are SF when the only thing they command is a keyboard and xbox controller.

Rant over.
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</div></div>

LOL
shocked.gif
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, think beyond 5.56mm -- think of a short gun in the AAC/Remington .300 BlackOut
wink.gif


A specific purpose built long gun subsonic round...

That will kill the SD's



</div></div>

It will be a great platform if they can ever get the suppressor they designed out for it. And the ammo availability will either make or break it. I hope they can swing it, I am a huge AAC fan. Would be interested in owning an upper in that 300 blackout.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

This isn't a site for bragging it is a site to share learned experiences good and bad so that other snipers can benefit from them and I don't consider my self a poser although I do celebrate St Paddys day.
As for your MK18 on your registered lower not making you a navy seal. You are correct, you would have to grow a pony tail
and tell me the cross fit workout of the day. Then you would be seal worthy!!
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I once used an MP5SD in combat to shoot at someone very quickly. But I did not shoot nearly as quick as I missed. I'm not sure that out of the 2 mags on full auto I even managed to hit the air. It was an embarrassing ,but thankfully not deadly lesson. I learned to take a real gun to a street fight. </div></div>

Cough!("Bullshit")
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This isn't a site for bragging it is a site to share learned experiences good and bad so that other snipers can benefit from them and I don't consider my self a poser although I do celebrate St Paddys day.
As for your MK18 on your registered lower not making you a navy seal. You are correct, you would have to grow a pony tail
and tell me the cross fit workout of the day. Then you would be seal worthy!! </div></div>

I thought it was a porn stash not a ponytail?
grin.gif
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they can go either way </div></div>

Dont forget they have to talk about their BUDs class number and getting their trident...lol
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

I was referring to you. We have no reason to believe anything you say. There are a lot of SF guys here on the Hide and I'm sure some of them would be very interested in you backing your claims by offering unit info., etc. (Unless you served in a unit that doesn't "officially" exists
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
) I don't really care either way, but at this point, your story is not passing the smell test. Could be wrong. Probably not.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Special Forces guys do not visit gun forums. </div></div>
This from the "smartest guy in the room."
Yet another reason it's good you got banned
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

sorry but i smell bs as well, so i might as well jump on the bandwagon. Im calling bullshit on you JJ. A 203 would have been better in the fight you were in? what?!? Lack of muzzleflash didnt scare the baddy? What?!?! You learned to bring a real gun to the fight? what? Im pretty sure that you would think a 9 mill was real if I shot you with it. There are lots of dead people out there thanks to 9 millimeter. Statistically, it may have killed more people than all other pistol calibers combined. You need to think about who you are saying these things to. Many snipershide members have used a weapon in combat, both in military and law enforcement. You cant bullshit us son. This isnt a video game chat room with a bunch of gullible 14 year olds. Im so tired of verbalizing people, damn. cough up some credentials and i will apologize.
 
Re: Question for special forces(and anyone else who ca

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not a poser nor did I stay in a holiday inn....... I dont know this military slang, dude.

Can you prove this info? </div></div>

Wait a minute so youre not military nor know military and youre calling him out?! WTF?!