Question on a war relic

[BlueReaper]

I recently found out that a close relative who is elderly and terminal, is leaving me his arsenal. This is good and bad. Among his weapons is an original Colt AR15 (patent pending) with a serial #00008XXX. The upper has no forward assist, and the forward receiver pin is held in with a cotter key.The stock and fore grips are bakelite green. The best I can tell it's pre 1965, and possibly from the first production run. The weapon has no bolt assembly but has the full auto selector switch, and the relative in question has said that he brought it home from the war. Being in law enforcement, I of course ran the serial number, which came back clear.
My question is, how can I make this gun legal besides the obvious replacement of the lower.It's obviously fairly valuable.
Thanks for any input.

 

[fast freddy]

Re: Question on a war relic

the selector switch doesnt matter, does it have a hole above the switch for a sear? or a sear installed?

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Question on a war relic

Sounds like it may be full-auto. If it is and he didn't register it in 1968 it will have to go to the grave with him... Or be turned-in to BATF. If you can open it up and post a picture of the "guts" inside the lower receiver we can tell you what you have.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Question on a war relic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast freddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the selector switch doesnt matter, does it have a hole above the switch for a sear? or a sear installed? </div></div>

What freddy said - if it does get your class 3 or get it out of there or make it non functional.

 

[handym3000]

Re: Question on a war relic

check for the sear pin above the safety. if it there please destroy the receiver. the parts are very valuable green furniture brings a premium especially if original. and they are very hard to find.

too bad the bolt is gone. an original always helps.

if you are looking for an original bolt check out ar15.com

they have the correct parts you are looking for for a pre 1965

smooth side carrier chrome

 

[frog5215]

Re: Question on a war relic

Do not destroy or " lose" anything.
Take the lower and any controlled parts, call your local ATF, and report you have come into possession of these parts, which you wish to surrender. Be prepared to answer questions.
If you claim to have "lost" or destroyed the parts, you'll have to be able to prove it, pretty damned hard if you don't have them any more.

A friend once bought a parts gun at the gun show, to find there were 4 FA parts installed by the thieving guardsman who sold it to him.

If it had been part of a sting and he had had a boating accident with the parts, he would have needed a lawyer at the least.

 

[dbush]

Re: Question on a war relic

Ask if there is a form 4 on file first, lots of C3's have lost paperwork.

 

[BlueReaper]

Re: Question on a war relic

Yes, it does have the full auto sear, and that's what I figured, better to destroy the lower than worry about it, thanks guys.

 

[DP425]

Re: Question on a war relic

I would personally contact the ATF on this one... best to go through the correct channels.

Keep in mind, there might be other things that can be done with this rifle other than destroying it. The ATF may be able to facilitate turning it over to a museum if it is a genuine war relic from Vietnam. There are a lot of different routes this could go, and seems being upfront about it would be the best bet. As someone else stated, if there has ever been paperwork on this weapon and someone comes looking... and no one can account for it's whereabouts... you'll have a tough time explaining it.

Perhaps when you call, make it clear that you would like to, #1 keep the firearm if at all possible, if #1 isn't possible, then option #2, through the ATF, facilitate the transfer to a museum, governmental archives or industrial archives for historical purposes... and lastly, if neither of those are possible, full disposal of said firearm though whatever legal channels are appropriate.

Taking the right steps seems to be paramount in this situation- not only for your personal legal liability but to possibly preserve a piece of modern military history.

 

[Longbow_06]

Re: Question on a war relic

Wouldn't it be just the sear that's the problem ? and couldn't he just strip out the guts and turn in the sear ?


Lee.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Question on a war relic

Nope, once a machine gun, always a machine gun, per past stories of the BATFE. It's not the parts that count, it's the serial number.

IMHO you have done nothing wrong, and will continue to do no wrong by approaching the BATFE in an open and cooperative manner. IMHO, since the receiver is as good as gone anyway, it could make best sense to inquire with the BATFE to see how it might be passible to preserve this piece of history in a legitimate authorized historical collection. I would suggest the Marine Corps Museum, or maybe the Air Force; as they seem to have been the first ones supplied with the original AR-15's.

Before I did <span style="font-style: italic">anything</span> with a FA receiver, including destroying it, I'd consult with the BATFE first. Coming into possession of a FA implement is a bit like picking up De Tar Baby; damned if you do, damned if you don't, without the full knowledge of the BATFE. They are like hawks with such things.

Being in Law Enforcement could have a direct bearing on your eligibility to possess such an item.

Greg

 

[dmtsc]

Re: Question on a war relic

I would get a lawyer and have them contact ATF w/serial number to see if its registered to your relative(some were registered in the amnesty). I would spend a little bit to maybe gain a piece of history. This gives you a good idea what to do then and your protected by the lawyer. They have been working for years on a veterans amnesty and I would take the receiver and put it someplace very safe if this ever came about then register it. just my .02

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Question on a war relic

They will probably come in your house a seize every firearm, ammo, and can of coleman stove fluid and firearm part you have if you were in Kalifornia.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Question on a war relic

Call the BATFE-NFA branch. Tell they what you have and how you came about it and see if the weapon is on the registry. If it is, it's a simple matter to transfer it to you and keep a piece of history.

If it's not and it's not able to be properly registered, they will tell you how to surrender it.

You have done nothing illegal, don't act like it.

DO NOT attempt to destroy, hide, etc. the weapon. By posting here you have already made a permanent record of the discovery.

At the least you may be able to turn it over to the NRA museum, or another entity that is able to possess such weapons.

 

[bikemancs]

Re: Question on a war relic

OK guys, this will probably end up classified as a "newbie" question. but:

Why can't he go through the same process that people do to own a Full Auto firearm? Why is the initial reaction for some of these responses to destroy it? Or donate it to a museum? If he's able to own a full auto firearm, couldn't he just contact the ATF, explain the situation, fill out the paperwork and go that route?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Question on a war relic

Because if it was not placed on the registry during or before the "Amnesty Period" then it is contraband.

YOU and I as private citizens cannot own a new Machinegun or one that was not properly registered prior to the ban.

All of the Machineguns that are being bought and sold legally are on the registry (or were at one time and have paperwork to prove it).

 

[bikemancs]

Re: Question on a war relic

Ah, I appreciate the information!

That makes sense now. Thank you.

 

[Brazos de Dios]

Re: Question on a war relic

I wouldnt be calling ATF for anything but to check to see if the serial number is in the registry...and honestly I am not sure I would even do that becuase it may come back as a serial listed as stolen/missing federal property.

You cant rely on the ATF to do anything but enforce the law. And the Law is that you, or the person who will be giving you the rifle, are in possession of an illegal MG. Period. You and/or he are subject to arrest and prosecution...right now. You are already aware (as stated above) that you now know you have an unregistered machine gun; you no longer even have a defense as to why it is in your possession.

Inviting them into your life will not go well. Your only real option if you want to keep the remaining parts is to take that lower out to garage right now and saw it into three peices. Anything else, and you are putting your life and your families well being in jeopardy. Sucks, but thats the way it is.

If I where you I would delete this thread.

 

[M25BeastShooter]

Re: Question on a war relic

Don't we all love the stupidity of the details of the 68 NFA and the most recent Volker/Mclure fire arms protection act!!

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Question on a war relic

Call ATF! as you know lawyers charge by the hour.

 

[DP425]

Re: Question on a war relic

This is NOT the attitude to be having on the matter. Set aside your fear of the ATF and all of the stories about how they are here to lock up ever legal citizen they can...

So long as he takes the CORRECT steps to turn over the contraband firearms, he is within the confines of the law. The correct steps are to turn it over to the ATF- if you can actually find court documents supporting your argument that they'll arrest him and destroy his life, I'll say I'm wrong. However, I'm willing to bet there is no documented situations like his where immediately, upon knowing that you came into possession of an unlawful weapon through an estate, contacted the ATF and they subsequently made an arrest.

The ATF will do one of several things...
1. Send out an agent to pick up the firearm and give you documentation that you turned it over to them.

2. Instruct you to take the firearm to your local PD for turn-in and destruction- they will (SHOULD) also give you documentation for turn-over.

3. Give you instructions on how to transfer the firearm to a museum, be it through the ATF or directly to said museum.

4. Give you instructions on how to transfer the gun into your name (which will likely require a dealer hold the gun until your paperwork is completed).



Almost all of the antidotal stories of the ATF cracking down with an iron fist on the poor, uninformed gun owner are told from friend to friend while leaving out some key pieces of information. This isn't to say there haven't been some errors on their part, but lets not be overly paranoid.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Question on a war relic

Some things are better left unsaid.

And never invite the man into your life.

 

[Ando]

Re: Question on a war relic

You are illegally in possession of a machine gun. If you are at all serious about trying to preserve, or get legal possession of this weapon, then you must contact a lawyer with experience in this area. This will cost money, however the weapon may have historical value, and if this were a legally transferable gun, it would be worth at minimum $20,000. Conversely I would certainly forgo $20,000 to avoid a felony conviction.

If you call the ATF and honestly explain the situation to them then you are admitting to commission of a federal felony. If you lie, then you are making false statements to a law enforcement officer.

Get a lawyer.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Question on a war relic

+1

 

[chrisdx3]

Re: Question on a war relic

Let's put it this way the batf is not the boogey men that everyone makes them out to be. I happen to know quite a few people who deal with them on a regular basis dealing in class three weaponry, and they always have had good things to say about the folks in the nfa branch. At this point you may or may not have broken the law which seems to be the general consensus amongst the forum members( which of course is not necessarily based on any real facts) . Now you have also put this information out on a public forum which the man may or may have not already seen ( tin foil hat stuff). So which route do you think would be best continuing to live in denial that this may not be an issue or call the batf directly and get a real answer. Honesty still is the best route deception will only make it seem like you were trying to commit a crime. If you are truly in law enforcement is there a way for you to turn it over to your police/sheriffs department so as at least get it out of your hands until an answer can be found as to weather or not it was correctly registered.

 

[Brazos de Dios]

Re: Question on a war relic

I have lots of good things to say about the folks at the NFA Branch too...but the OP is not going to be dealing with them, he will be dealing with the agent in the closest office to his home.

And there is no gaurantee that that agent gives a damn about the OP, being a nice guy, or even knows what the law is. People think that this is like sorting out the lost title on a bass boat...and that just aint the case.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Question on a war relic

IMHO
UNLESS the previous owner has paperwork to prove it was legally registered - a MG may not be registered (without another amnesty period, which is unlikely), transferred to another individual, or legally kept. Any idea of transferring ownership to yourself are pipe dreams (unless previously registered). Now instead of the firearm being worth $15-20 grand, it is wort nothing.

Well actually I will earn you a felony conviction, your job, thousands of dollars in legal fees, and forever bar you from firearm ownership at a minimum. Worst case is 10 years in a federal pen. Doesn't seem like much of a trade off to me. Again suggest you call ATF and have them collect it.

Buddy of mine worked the front desk at Md state police HQ. Guy pulls up in a PU truck and advises the Trooper he wants to turn in two firearms. Again the story goes that grandpop died and these were found in the rafters of his garage: two .30 caliber belt fed MGs.

As the WW II (especially) generation is passing on more and more MGs are being uncovered stashed away.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[rdl65]

Re: Question on a war relic

Don't you wish you would have just kept this to yourself now?

 

[former naval person]

Re: Question on a war relic

This rifle belonged to the US Government. So, basically, it is now stolen property. War trophies were/are items that belonged to the enemy. In this case, the owner was/is the USA. If the person who liberated/stole the weapon is indeed terminal, he probably won't be prosecuted. But, there is no more amnesty for the turn-ins. You need to dissociate yourself from the piece. The ATF would seem to be the correct place to go since you and the MG are now "OUTED" by your posting here. You've had good advice on that. JMHO

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: Question on a war relic

Your being LEO brings up another possibility. It is true that individuals may not purchase mg's registered or made after '85. But an LE organization- like a P.D. is exempt and can buy and use new manufactured full auto weapons.
Check with your police Chief to see if he is willing for the dept. to take possession of the rifle. If so contact the ATF and see what's involved with transferring it to the P.D.

Jim

 

[DP425]

Re: Question on a war relic

Got a friend I did a tour with who's now an agent... just put the situation to him to see what his advise is and if there are any legal protections for attempting to turn it in.

I'll post what he says when I get a reply

 

[deersniper]

Re: Question on a war relic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Buddy of mine worked the front desk at Md state police HQ. Guy pulls up in a PU truck and advises the Trooper he wants to turn in two firearms. Again the story goes that grandpop died and these were found in the rafters of his garage: two .30 caliber belt fed MGs.


Good luck

Jerry </div></div>

Wow. I can't say anymore. What a waste.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Question on a war relic

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">You're so screwed</span></span>

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: Question on a war relic

It's you're, not your.

Jim

 

[pale horse]

Re: Question on a war relic

law enforcement or not it was a nam war bring back I would do all I could to keep the the gun intact for value contact a arms or probate lawyer who may be able to help people who destroy history pieces are the worst sinners law or no law that gun if it could talk most like sent some dink to his ancesters . wish it was mine good luck on doing the moral thing I for one do not believe in demilling war take homes not even a tiger tank if the guy got it home he should be able to keep it word

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Question on a war relic

Short Story: I used to work at a Gas Station 20 years ago. One day a regular customer who knew I was into firearms told me she had an old gun she wanted to get rid of. Her Father brought it home from WWII. Next time in she brought it in her trunk and wanted to give it to me. I opened the trunk and removed the blanket she had over it and there was a Fantastic looking B.A.R.! I immdeiately closed the trunk and directed her to the local Police Station. Told her just to go in and tell whoever was there her story and let them remove it from the car. Next time in she told me the Officer was very nice, removed the gun, had her fill out some sort of statement and sent her on her way. Her Father had not registered it in 1968 because he had died before that and the gun was in his attic for years and years. I would have Loved to have that... But it wasn't worth PRISON!

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Question on a war relic

This is what we need changed in America. See US vs Switzeland Guns Laws www.theblessingsofliberty.com/articless/11 html-

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Question on a war relic

Consider it this way: If a friend had given you a 2 pound bag of cocaine (instead of an unregistered MG). Would you A) keep it because the street value is $$$$$ or B) Turn it over to the nearest police department. I vote B.

The gun has NO value - because it was not registered (and can never be registered). The paperwork is the key. Otherwise it is contraband and should be considered as such.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[deersniper]

Re: Question on a war relic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider it this way: If a friend had given you a 2 pound bag of cocaine (instead of an unregistered MG). Would you A) keep it because the street value is $$$$$ or B) Turn it over to the nearest police department. I vote B.

The gun has NO value - because it was not registered (and can never be registered). The paperwork is the key. Otherwise it is contraband and should be considered as such.

Good luck

Jerry </div></div>

That would be valid argument if there was a constitutional right/natural law to be able to keep and bear cocaine.

There is a right to keep and bear arms. And we all know that right wasn't meant for duck hunting.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Question on a war relic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider it this way: If a friend had given you a 2 pound bag of cocaine (instead of an unregistered MG). Would you A) keep it because the street value is $$$$$ or B) Turn it over to the nearest police department. I vote B.

The gun has NO value - because it was not registered (and can never be registered). The paperwork is the key. Otherwise it is contraband and should be considered as such.

Good luck

Jerry </div></div>

That would be valid argument if there was a constitutional right/natural law to be able to keep and bear cocaine.

There is a right to keep and bear arms. And we all know that right wasn't meant for duck hunting. </div></div>

What about the stolen part?

 

[former naval person]

Re: Question on a war relic

The nice little 1911 A1's and such were sold in quantity by the US Government to private citizens. No such sale of combat ready M16's occurred to civilians or former army personnel in the USA.

 

[wrecklessfool]

Re: Question on a war relic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a friend I did a tour with who's now an agent... just put the situation to him to see what his advise is and if there are any legal protections for attempting to turn it in.

I'll post what he says when I get a reply
</div></div>

Interested in hearing what this guy has to say concerning this situation...

 

[BlueReaper]

Re: Question on a war relic

Well, I do appreciate everyone's input, but as I stated, this weapon is not in my possession and will not be after being advised by an ATF friend of mine of the perils and pitfalls associated with this situation. Again, thanks for your comments.