F T/R Competition Question on new barrel

[jrr1982]

K fellas,
I am very unhappy with the Barrel that cam with my remington 700p, I was planning on using this for F/TR, I have been looking at the Kreiger #10 heavy bull Target Contour. First question, would this be a good replacement barrel? Second question, I am running a nightforce nxs 12-42 x 56 with Badger medium high rings, will I have enough clearance between the barrel and objective lens, or should I get the high rings and possibly maybe even a heavier barrel?

 

[ewok]

I know a number of guys that use Kreiger barrels. Everything I have heard was good.

 

[cornhusker]

what is wrong with this barrel?

 

[jrr1982]

I noticed that is was quite warped after shooting all day Sunday, the Accuracy is sub par,(not what I want for a competition rifle) and I noticed pitting in the barrel as well.

 

[gstaylorg]

If you're going to have it re-barreled, there are a few things to think about before having it done. Krieger makes outstanding barrels. So do Bartlein, Shilen, Brux, Obermeyer...you get the picture. Although barrel availability is pretty thin right now, a major consideration for me would be could I find one of the desired specs from a reputable barrel maker that was ready to go. Otherwise, you may be looking at 8 months or more lead time.

Second, that contour barrel is pretty heavy, although it should work well. You may want to contact Krieger and see just how long you can go with it and still make weight with your rifle. Better to do it now than later. I'm guessing you could probably get away with at least 29"- 30" length, which would help a lot in the velocity department.

Third, what ammunition do you plan to use in competition? You want to be sure the reamer used will be compatible. If you want to go with different chamber specs to accommodate a longer (heavier) projectile, now is the time to do it. Make sure you get the reamer/chamber specs squared away with your smith beforehand; don't leave it up to chance. Doing a re-barrel gives you some good opportunities to optimize your rifle for F-T/R competition, so make sure you get everything set up the way you want and you'll be very happy with the results in the long run. Good luck.

BTW: With the extra barrel thickness, you may want to use Badger High (1.125") rings. They will give you the clearance you need, especially if your scope bell is very close in the 1" rings. Plus, they come in the alloy version, which are lighter and may help out with the overall weight. These are what I use with my NF 12-42x56 scopes and I'm very happy with them. The Med/High (1.00") rings were a little too close for me. If you do decide to get taller rings, you'll probably need to raise the comb a bit as well. If your rifle has an adjustable cheek piece, you're GTG. Otherwise, a buttstock cover with comb padding/spacer will do the trick for very little coin.

 

[jrr1982]

If you're going to have it re-barreled, there are a few things to think about before having it done. Krieger makes outstanding barrels. So do Bartlein, Shilen, Brux, Obermeyer...you get the picture. Although barrel availability is pretty thin right now, a major consideration for me would be could I find one of the desired specs from a reputable barrel maker that was ready to go. Otherwise, you may be looking at 8 months or more lead time.

Second, that contour barrel is pretty heavy, although it should work well. You may want to contact Krieger and see just how long you can go with it and still make weight with your rifle. Better to do it now than later. I'm guessing you could probably get away with at least 29"- 30" length, which would help a lot in the velocity department.

Third, what ammunition do you plan to use in competition? You want to be sure the reamer used will be compatible. If you want to go with different chamber specs to accommodate a longer (heavier) projectile, now is the time to do it. Make sure you get the reamer/chamber specs squared away with your smith beforehand; don't leave it up to chance. Doing a re-barrel gives you some good opportunities to optimize your rifle for F-T/R competition, so make sure you get everything set up the way you want and you'll be very happy with the results in the long run. Good luck.

BTW: With the extra barrel thickness, you may want to use Badger High (1.125") rings. They will give you the clearance you need, especially if your scope bell is very close in the 1" rings. Plus, they come in the alloy version, which are lighter and may help out with the overall weight. These are what I use with my NF 12-42x56 scopes and I'm very happy with them. The Med/High (1.00") rings were a little too close for me. If you do decide to get taller rings, you'll probably need to raise the comb a bit as well. If your rifle has an adjustable cheek piece, you're GTG. Otherwise, a buttstock cover with comb padding/spacer will do the trick for very little coin.

Thankyou, that was exactly the information I was looking for. Not to keep probing for information, but I have been shooting 308win match grade 168 grain. I will however be reloading starting this summer. I will be using Berger bullets, will I need to do something else with my chamber/barrel to accomodate anything over 175 grain. I am still trying to find a gunsmith in my area that can do the work for me, I was contemplating sending it to GAP, not sure about the turnaround time tho.

 

[gstaylorg]

GAP is supposed to be running about 3 months on re-barrels right now. I currently have one of my F-T/R guns being re-barreled there with a 30" Bartlein MTU contour. It is pretty close to the contour you posted above and I know it's going to be close in terms of making weight, which is why I mentioned it. GAP does phenomenal work, so if you go there, no worries on that score. Their "standard" .308 bolt gun reamer (if there is such a thing) is .342 neck, 1deg30, .085" freebore. So far, my GAP .308s with those chamber specs have all shot pretty much everything I've used extremely well, including 150 gr SSTs, 155 gr Scenars, 155.5 gr Bergers, 168 gr SMKs, 175 gr SMKs, 175 Berger Tactical, and 190 gr SMKs. Of those, I routinely use the Applied Ballistics 175 gr Tactical load in midrange comps and they shoot extremely well.

Even though that chamber seems very versatile, if you want to go with anything heavier (longer) than 175s, you could probably do with more than .085" freebore. I'm sticking with it for the time being because I don't want to possibly lose the ability to shoot the AB175s. I have a couple GAP Crusaders I want to get as close as possible to one another for 1000 yd matches, so I bought 4 [identical] barrels from Bartlein, one of which is being installed currently as I mentioned. I also ordered my own reamer with the above specs from Dave Kiff at PTG, along with Go/No Go gauges. When the first is done, I'll send in the second. Even though they may not be identical, I'm hoping they're very closely matched load-wise when finished. Then, I'll have a replacement barrel for each down the road. My thinking is that even if the shorter freebore isn't optimal for longer projectiles like the Berger 185s (or above), it should work well enough and I won't lose the ability to shoot the 175s well. As long as you talk things through with whomever is going to do the work, I'm sure you can come up with a good plan.

 

[Denys]

I think that contour will be too heavy, especially if you are going to try for a longer barrel. Also, what kind of twist were you thinking of? For the bullet weights you are considering, 1:12 or probably 1:11 twist. Some people will try to browbeat you into a 1:10; resist.

 

[XTR]

I run Heavy Palma contours, Krieger calls it a #14. I wouldn't get a 12 twist. I run a 10 but an 11 or an 11.25 is fine for most everything you'll ever want to shoot.

If you are really planning to make a dedicated F class gun you should pay a lot of attention to your bullet choice and reamer at this point in your build process. The 175 don't perform nearly as well at 1000 yds as several other available bullets. The Hornady 178 BTHP is cost effective with much better performance; a whole lot of the F-TR crowd is running extremely heavy bullets, like 200 to 230s. For the last couple of yrs the "go-to" bullet for F-TR has been the 185 Berger LRBT, now renamed and sold under two names as the Tactical OTM and the Juggernaut. Same bullet, different names for different markets. That is a great bullet and PT&G has an off the shelf reamer design for it with a 0.168 freebore.

 

[jrr1982]

I think that contour will be too heavy, especially if you are going to try for a longer barrel. Also, what kind of twist were you thinking of? For the bullet weights you are considering, 1:12 or probably 1:11 twist. Some people will try to browbeat you into a 1:10; resist.

I was thinking of using berger 185 grain. I believe it says on bergers website that it would need 1:12 twist. what contour would you recommend for a dedicated F/TR Rifle?

 

[Denys]

Read what XTR said above. A medium or heavy Palma is the way to go. My rifle has a 32 inch medium-heavy Palma Krieger and it's a few ounces under regs. I prefer a 1:11, with which I have stabilized everything up to and including 200gr SMKs, but if you are stopping at the 185 Gergers then a 1:12 is fine. It's really up to you and make sure to pick a chamber to match your bullet.

 

[jrr1982]

thanks for the input guys, I am going to try the Heavy Palma with a 1:11 twist. I am thinking that 30" should be long enough

 

[gstaylorg]

You should start by figuring out the barrel length you want. For most, this would be in the 30"-32" range. However, length comes with it's own set of considerations (finding a sufficiently long case for example, if you don't want to have to separate the stock and barreled action). Once you decide, weigh your rifle as accurately as possible. Then talk to the barrel manufacturer or use their online barrel weight calculator to determine how heavy a contour you can use for that length barrel that will put you close to ~17.8-18.0 lb with everything attached that will be on it when you go to the line to shoot (ie. scope, bipod, mag, buttstock cover, mirage band, etc.). This is under the maximum limit (8.25 kg or ~18.18 lb), but not every competition uses the same scale and you definitely don't want to be over, so a little headroom is wise. I personally prefer the heaviest contour possible, and am willing to give up an inch or two of barrel length to get it. I don't believe that past a certain point the extra inch or two buys that much extra velocity or wind resistance, but that is just my own personal preference. There are some folks using barrels upwards of 34" in length that will tell you the opposite. To some extent, it's personal preference, so you will have to think about it and decide on your own.

Once you decide on a length and contour that will make weight with a little to spare, the main decision to make is with regard to chamber specs. If you want to exclusively shoot Berger 185s, as XTR mentioned, you can buy a reamer from PTG proven to work extremely well with that specific projectile. However, that chamber is not as optimal for shorter projectiles, so as with everything, it may be a trade-off depending on what you want to do with the rifle. I shoot every month in 300 and 600 yd F-Class MR matches, in addition to LR matches. There is no need for me to use my LR load for those, so I didn't want that long of a freebore. But it's a trade-off; my rifles are probably not as optimal for 1000 yd as they could have been if I was willing to go with the longer freebore. So you need to think about how many 1000 yd F-Class events you'll use it for, versus maybe some other things that may not require the same load. If you really want a rifle exclusively for the 185s, then you know now how to go about it. If you want something a little more versatile with regard to different loads, then you need to think more about prioritizing the shooting you'll do and optimize the chamber specs accordingly.

Just remember, none of this is written in stone. Everyone has their own particular preference and none of them are wrong. You will also have some added flexibility by developing your own specific loads. There are many different ways to end up with a rifle that shoots extremely well, so you have some leeway as to how to tailor your setup to your specific requirements. With a new barrel installed by a competent smith and Berger 185s, I think you'll be pretty happy with the results regardless of the specific details. At that point, my only advice is to improve your wind reading skills. Whatever you might gain from a longer barrel and heavier projectile can still be totally insignificant compared to what the wind will do if you don't understand how to read it. I think you're on the right track with everything so far. Best of luck with it.

 

[jrr1982]

I think that contour will be too heavy, especially if you are going to try for a longer barrel. Also, what kind of twist were you thinking of? For the bullet weights you are considering, 1:12 or probably 1:11 twist. Some people will try to browbeat you into a 1:10; resist.

So do you use Stainless steel or Chromemoly?

 

[XTR]

I don't think I've ever seen a custom competition rifle with anything but stainless.

 

[jrr1982]

I don't think I've ever seen a custom competition rifle with anything but stainless.

Ok. that settles it. I know what I am getting...
thanks guys!!!

 

[Denys]

Yes, stainless steel. Make sure you get it bead blasted; it helps with cooling the barrel because it increases the surface area a great deal.

There is nothing wrong with CM barrels but for the sustained shooting of F-class, bead blasted stainless steel is more appropriate.