Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

[rocketresto]

Hello, long time lurker, just signed up because I would like to know more about this. This rifle is owned by a friend who's father recently died. I've been helping him sell some other military rifles / gear and we would like to know more about this one. I don't know any history about it, I don't know when he acquired it. I forgot take a detail picture of the stock, there are two filled holes that look like where the cheek riser used to be mounted. Is the butt plate different on these? There is a number on the under side of the very forward part of the stock but it is very faint and I cannot read it. What do you think?

The serial number on the receiver is very faint but matches the number that is on the scope mount.

The scope serial number matches the number stamped in the heel of the stock.

 

[Grimm]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

The M47c indicates that the rifle was made at the BSA Shirley plant. The T stamp indicates above average accuracy.
The iron mount serialized to the rifle, and the mk32 scope number on the heel indicate a conversion in Britain by Holland and Holland.
A MK1 with a Zamak buttplate indicates wartime production parts, probably an early in the year manufacture.
Shame about the missing cheek rest, otherwise it seems on the surface to be a legitimate late war to post war production sniper conversion by H&H. if there is a leather case and cheek rest hiding somewhere your friend would have a complete package.
I wouldn't be able to value it, but hopefully that will help you find someone who can.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Holland & Holland also stamped the knuckle of the butt with the code number S51.

If you remove the butt, is the serial number of the rifle stamped in front of the scope number on the wood socket?

The number stamped under the forend of the wood should be the serial number of the rifle. Check it is matching.

Stamping the serial number of the rifle on the scope mount was a change to production post war according to Peter Laidler.

Are the screws on the pads for the scope bracket staked?

On the scope, check it has not been converted to 7.62mm BDC and metres - this is pretty easy to do. Count the clicks between the distance markers. The No32 Mk3 provides 1MOA clicks and was calibrated as follows for .303 in yards:

0 on the drum (+3 clicks) 100yds (1 on the drum)
+4 to 200 (2 on the drum)
+4 to 300 (3 on the drum)
+4 to 400 (4 on the drum
+4 to 500 (5 on the drum)
+6 to 600 ( you guessed it...to 6)
+7 to 700
+8 to 800
+9 to 900
+11 to 1000

According to my references No32 Mk3 scopes were only manufactured by A. Kershaw & Sons, Taylor-Hobson & Co and Cooke, Troughton & Simms in the UK and REL in Canada.

The serial number you have falls into the numbers recorded as produced by Taylor-Hobson and their maker's mark is the monogram to the left of the serial number.

Here's a link to a known provenance BSA N04T with T-H No32 scope.....lots of good pics for comparison:

http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1944enfieldno4mk1tserialr33872

On your side of the pond, check Brian Dick's site (www.bdlltd.com) or give him a call - he's one of the top Enfield blokes in the US and should be able to give you a good idea on values. He currently has a No4T up at $4995 but that includes much of the CES (Chest, scope caps, scope tin, sling etc.) and the scope has had the lenses "bloomed" and is waterproofed. That's as good a package as it gets for a collector IMHO.

http://www.bdlltd.com/Military_Firearms_CR_BSA_MK_1T.html

 

[rocketresto]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Thanks for the replies.

BasraBoy, it dosen't have the S51 underneath,just a large D and a small S.L farther forward. I'm not sure how to remove the butt, I'll check on that later. The fore end number is very unreadable but the number doesn't look like it matches.

The screws holding the pad on have been staked several times.

The turrets on the scope are frozen and I don't want to apply too much force.

I can take more pics if they are needed.

Mike

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Mike

It may be that the butt has been changed at some point. Most of the original No4T's were fitted with the Normal length butt (although some originals have been noted with the Short butt).

The length of the butt is denoted by the stamping of S, N or L into the butt. You seem to have s and L? Best to take a pic I guess?

I've added a link to my OP to BDL's site where they have a BSA No4T. I'd say get as many pics as you can and get in touch with Brian. he will be able to give you a proper evaluation.

If the turrets are siezed...DON'T try to move them as you'll bugger up the mechanism. Then you're talking sending it to Peter Laidler (or US equivalent) for repair and that could be costly! However...to free them it's going to need to be serviced anyway...but best not to do any irrepairable damage

Cheers

Andy

 

[rocketresto]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

It's late here here, I'll check out the links and get more pics in the morning.

Mike

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

No worries.

Try to get some more pictures of the butt..and also the TR stamp on the butt socket....not sure if that looks quite right compared to the stampings on the link I gave you.

Other areas to check are the rear sling swivel (is it a standard No4 swivel or the Mk2?), the backsight (is the leaf blackened and has it been modified to allow the bolt to be removed without removing the scope?)and also the swivelin front of the mag.

Enfield markings can be a minefield!

Get as many pics as you can and either post them here or on the Enfield forum at milsurps.com...or speak to Brain Dick and send them over to him (although both Peter Laidler and Brian are regular contributors on the Enfield forum mentioned).

 

[Joop]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Nice!

Apex gun parts has (or, at least, had) original cheek pieces. Otherwise, Numrich sells repros (which I have and it matched the holes on my Savage sniper, perfectly).

 

[303_enfield]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Pre 68 import. Rifle is right just missing a few bits. Butt stock has the scope number stamped and rack number.

Go here to learn more:
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?55-The-Lee-Enfield-Forum
and
http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

 

[samnev]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

If you can get an original cheek piece and the rifle hasn't been sanded or altered in any way the 6th edition (newest) of "The Standard Catalog Of Military Firearms" list by condition:
Exc $2250
VG $2025
good $1620
fair $1125
poor $715

Prices reflect 10% deduction for missing transport case.
HTH

 

[Joop]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can get an original cheek piece and the rifle hasn't been sanded or altered in any way the 6th edition (newest) of "The Standard Catalog Of Military Firearms" list by condition:
Exc $2250
VG $2025
good $1620
fair $1125
poor $715

Prices reflect 10% deduction for missing transport case.
HTH </div></div>

If I had to take a stab at it, using recent auctions as a guide, I would say that this is very low. I've seen rifles in similar condition (but, with the cheek piece) sell for $3000+

 

[303_enfield]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Parts are worth, scope is worth $1000-1500 (or over $2,000 on e-bay) if it needs a rebuild. Mount is $500 and rifle is $500. Now add it all together plus it matches.

Rifle would sell for $3K on the East Coast. Over $5K is you can sell it in England (funny I know).

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Over $5K is you can sell it in England (funny I know). </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble - but I don't know of anyone who would pay that unless it was in complete working order and came with complete CES.

In the UK, I think you'd be looking around £2000 - £2500 as is.

 

[rocketresto]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Thank again to every one. I have been looking at all the links and reading on the other sights, very good info.

I'm guessing this rifle has a replacement stock, the fore stock has a different SN and there is no serial number on the rear, just the scope #.

Mike

 

[303_enfield]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Over $5K is you can sell it in England (funny I know). </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble - but I don't know of anyone who would pay that unless it was in complete working order and came with complete CES.

In the UK, I think you'd be looking around £2000 - £2500 as is. </div></div>

An the is what in USD? I never said, "Pounds Sterling". Damn sure I have seen them for sale that high at the Bedford Militaria Fair or Bisley. But then again it's funny money to me

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 303_enfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Over $5K is you can sell it in England (funny I know). </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble - but I don't know of anyone who would pay that unless it was in complete working order and came with complete CES.

In the UK, I think you'd be looking around £2000 - £2500 as is. </div></div>

An the is what in USD? I never said, "Pounds Sterling". Damn sure I have seen them for sale that high at the Bedford Militaria Fair or Bisley. But then again it's funny money to me

</div></div>

LOL!! GB£1.00 is around US$1.50 these days.

True, you will see "T"s ranging from £2000 up to silly money depending on condition/originality, Mk version of scope, whether they have the Chest/CES included.

But with a seized scope, no cheekrest and possible mismatched wood....I still reckon you're going to be at the bottom end of the scale.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

Those book values are really low. The Mk3 scope is a plus, mount is numbered to the receiver. Many of the T's have miss matched mounts and scopes.

The Butt appears to be a field replacement.

Even with the mismatched wood I bet it would bring close to 2.5K+ on GB.

I had Wheaty up in Canada rebuild my MkI scope on my 43 BSA "T". Brian at BDL applied a fresh coat of Suncorite to the mount. It fairs pretty well at the local mil-surp shoots.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madcratebuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those book values are really low. The Mk3 scope is a plus, mount is numbered to the receiver. Many of the T's have miss matched mounts and scopes.

Even with the mismatched wood I bet it would bring close to 2.5K+ on GB. </div></div>

Did you realise I was talking GBP, not US$?

Or perhaps you were talking about the US$ prices further up the post??

But your post says it is in reply to my post...so some examples for comparison:

It has an unservicable scope.

Mk3 or otherwise, it needs to work to get top money...and the best prices are reserved for the bloomed and waterproofed models, this one appears to be neither. You're potentially looking at an expensive fix - especially if it needs parts. The only way to Peter Laidler (the only bloke I'd trust in the UK to service a No32) is through Fultons - never a cheap experience!

Fultons have a No4T without chest but all matching and fully functional at typically "optimistic" Fultons pricing at £2750.

You need to bear in mind that these are the guys who will try to sell you a bitsa 98k scoped rifle ("sniper" repro) cobbled together out of RC mismatched parts for £3000.

I would expect a similar quality of rifle to the No4T they have to be easily 10-15% less at a more "real world" dealer.

There is no shortage of genuine No4T's in the UK - they come up frequently...in fact there are two at Fulton's I saw on the weekend (one with much of the CES included) and a third on Gunbroker that just sold. Plus I know of another dealer who has a mint example with complete CES he just bought as part of a colection that was sold. That's four without even looking.....

The complete rifle that BDL has right now includes a fully functional and recently serviced, bloomed and waterproofed No32 Mk3 and chest, scope tin and caps at $4995 (GBP3,120.00). As a personal import to the UK this would be the one I'd go for.

Why would someone pay top rate for an incomplete rifle with a locked scope especially if you then had additional shipping/insurance costs, import/export fees and duties?

Sorry, but it just doesn't happen these days...at least not amongst any of the guys I shoot with.

 

[1kHIT]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why would someone pay top rate for an incomplete rifle with a locked scope especially if you then had additional shipping/insurance costs, import/export fees and duties?

Sorry, but it just doesn't happen these days...at least not amongst any of the guys I shoot with. </div></div>

At the end of it all, that's really the issue. It's not a true original model with matching part's serial numbers, scope doesn't work, etc..., so leading the OP to believe he should be able to sell it at a price comparable to a rifle that does have matching parts, the scope does work, etc..., is kind of cruel, IMO.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Questions about an Enfield NO.4 MK.1 T

BasraBoy is spot on. The metal may match but the wood is wrong (plus no cheekpiece), the scope needs sorting and there is no transit case or any of the other toys that make collectors twitch. In this condition, pounds sterling, I wouldnt give any more than £1200 for this rifle. There are always fools out there with more cash than sense and the prices on these rifles have went silly but even though its not the full package.