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R700 or Surgeon Action?

KPK

KPK

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 2, 2009
1,106
194
39
Oklahoma
#1
What do you fellas think? I'm wanting to either build a .308 or .338L. I assume with the .338 that I would have to go with the XL action, but for a first custom rifle/from scratch would a .308 or say a .264 be better? It'll be for target shooting and maybe some hunting. I just really don't know what to do. Save for a Surgeon or get started with a 700 earlier.

Thanks for the help.

Oh and I've got a 6.5 Grendel in an ar platform. Will a .308 outperform it by much?
 
#3
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Your first rifle/custom rifle should be .308 or one of the flatter shooting non-magnum calibers especially if you target shoot and do a little hunting. Of course if you are hunting large North American game then you might have to rethink the caliber. I shoot my .308 competition rifle considerably more than my .338LM's unless I am reaching way out there. A smaller caliber is much more practical when the circumstances allow it to be.
 
#4
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

If you have to ask about a caliber for the first LR rig....buy a 308Win...granted the 338LM will not be outgrown.....but that will be a very expensive learning process....especially considering with the 308Win and 168SMK or 175SMK, first time at the LR shooting, if there is anybody near shooting 308Win LR....just ask them their dope and you will probably hit paper within 3 rounds.....338LM is not so common.

Buy a factory 308Win with a heavy barrel and have it set back and trued when your skill warrents it...meaning when you just can not get the groups any smaller and you have had somebody look over your shooting practice and try to work the bugs out. Most factory rifles will out shoot a new shooter, seen it lots of times where ammo selection from gun to gun is a major difference....if you don't reload you have very limited options with the 338LM....with 308Win....even more limited!!
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#5
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Surgeon for sure! But I would go either 7/08 or 7WSM. I no longer belive that 30cal is the best first step. 7mm is where its at!
 
#6
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surgeon for sure! But I would go either 7/08 or 7WSM. I no longer belive that 30cal is the best first step. 7mm is where its at! </div></div>

But has the factory loaded 7-08 or 7mmWSM came into a variety? The 308Win is more versitile than the 30-06 if factory loadings.

I love the 7-08 and 7WSM but for a starter rifle? If the OP handloads then that is a whole different story!!

BUt the Surgeon is a better action but will you be able to tell the difference? You can build a whole rig up for the cost of the Surgeon action alone.
 
#7
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Yah Ill give you the handloading part, but yes 7/08 would make a great starter cartridge, and 7WSM would be a great step up once he outgrows the 08.

As for the action, I will never build on a Rem action again, Surgeon RSR's are too nice for the money for me to mess with a factory action ever again. To eash his own I guess.
 
#8
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

If you build using the Surgeon RSR it'll end up being the same if not less than a comparably equipped 700. I've built several with the RSR lately and they are very well made; they've been coming in at about $2850 without a scope.

That being said the 700 is a great receiver and it's a good foundation to build on.

If what you'll be hunting is deer or smaller consider the .243. It's a soft recoiling round and it'll stay supersonic to past 1K.
 
#9
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KPK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you fellas think? I'm wanting to either build a .308 or .338L. I assume with the .338 that I would have to go with the XL action, but for a first custom rifle/from scratch would a .308 or say a .264 be better? It'll be for target shooting and maybe some hunting. I just really don't know what to do. Save for a Surgeon or get started with a 700 earlier.

Thanks for the help.

Oh and I've got a 6.5 Grendel in an ar platform. Will a .308 outperform it by much? </div></div>

KPK

Surgeon...6.5 Creedmoor and your done.
 
#10
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

If you have to save for a Surgeon, then you are probably stretching your finances in the wrong direction. A custom action is low on the list of items that will make you a better shooter. Bullets, barrels, optics, and the amount of rounds sent downrange are far more important than a custom action.

Stick with a 308 for sure...way easier on the pocket book and barrel and your body. Translation: you will shoot much more, get more enjoyment from it, and become a better shooter faster.
 
#11
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

what he said.

Except for caliber. .260 out performs the .308 and the ammo is about the same cost. If you are hand loading the .243 would be a good choice too, 6mm bullets are a bit cheaper, low recoil, and great brass and accuracy.
 
#12
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Agree with him, I had a remmy action that shot .3 at 100 all day long so its not the action thats more of a resale issue . if you like the rifle and will never sell it "lol" then what ever you want is the key. shooting it and becoming a better shooter takes practice and patience. alsoa lot of pills down the barrel.
Bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have to save for a Surgeon, then you are probably stretching your finances in the wrong direction. A custom action is low on the list of items that will make you a better shooter. Bullets, barrels, optics, and the amount of rounds sent downrange are far more important than a custom action.

Stick with a 308 for sure...way easier on the pocket book and barrel and your body. Translation: you will shoot much more, get more enjoyment from it, and become a better shooter faster. </div></div>
 
#13
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

I have had a surgeon for a few years now and like it a bunch. Given all the nice clones out, it's hard for me to justify going surgeon 591 or standard Remington if I was doing it right now. The RD precision signature rifle uses a defiance machine action and his price for the complete rifle with base is very good. It uses AW mags also which is a big plus.
 
#14
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Thanks for all the helpful comments fellas. Sorry I haven't gotten on to respond I've just been busy, etc.

After posting my questions I pretty much decided that the 338 was just to much for me at this point. It will be nice for the future, but I'm think more of the .260 remington ackley improved or the .280 ackley improved. The .308 just isn't much different than my 6.5 grendel as far as ballistics (on charts anyways).

The reason I started looking at the .260 was from a website I was reading on the 6.5 grendel and someone started discussing it. Well I did some more research and it seems to be one of the best smaller rounds ballistically. Am I right in my thinking? Its trajectory etc matches somewhat the .300 Win Mag with much less recoil etc.

The .280 ackley was brought up today from a friend of mine. That is what he shoots and he shoots long range. Said he was shooting it 1,875 yards the other day. He admitted that he hit 2 out of 12 shots on a 2x3 plate, but that would be pretty cool. Shoots coyotes etc 800 yards plus.

Also I'm not totally new to guns or anything, just precision shooting. I've always had guns and reload now, but would like to get deeper involved. I'm not really one to sell a gun once I have it like I like, plus I see them as a long term investment.

The Surgeon RSR would be really nice, Thanks for putting me on it. It looks like it's only short action though. Would something like the .280 ackley need a long action?

What are you guys opinions on these? I'm not too worried about factory ammo as I have a .300 RUM, 6mm remington, .270, .223, etc to hunt with, etc.

I do appreciate it!
 
#15
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

with the difference in the action... are you just getting a more durable and stronger action going with surgeon....... accuracy comes from a nice match grade barrel right. if he had the action and lugs trued on a rem 700
 
#16
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Think you're right Poff.

I would probably go with a heart barrel as that is what a friend of mine can get at a decent deal.
 
#17
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Poff you are correct. The key item is the fact that the cost of truing a 700 action and purchasing the Surgeon is going to cost you about the same, and then have your tube of choice screwed on.

If the OP doesn't have a 700 donor action now, and is doing a build a Surgeon is probably the best choice.
 
#18
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

This is what I did and it financially hurt like hell as a stupid/poor graduate student. Buy once and only once.

Surgeon 591 (I would get a WSM with a .308 bolt face in case you ever want to shoot a WSM round. You can just get a new WSM bolt.) You can switch out barrels easily. Buy barrels by at least the pair to vastly cut down on the 4-6 month wait for a smith to chamber and thread your barrels while you cannot use your rifle.

Shilen barrel - Save the $$$ while you learn to shoot the thing. The barrel will last a long while during which time you can save some cash. The barrel will outlast your ability to made good windcalls for a long time.

.260 Remington (not Improved): lots of good and bad bullets, accurate, low recoil, brass does not cost a lot

If you cannot justify the above, I would get a 700 PSS with a fast twist .223 barrel and shoot it until you can. 69-80gr bullets are good shooters and much cheaper.
 
#19
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KPK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the helpful comments fellas. Sorry I haven't gotten on to respond I've just been busy, etc.

After posting my questions I pretty much decided that the 338 was just to much for me at this point. It will be nice for the future, but I'm think more of the .260 remington ackley improved or the .280 ackley improved. The .308 just isn't much different than my 6.5 grendel as far as ballistics (on charts anyways).

The reason I started looking at the .260 was from a website I was reading on the 6.5 grendel and someone started discussing it. Well I did some more research and it seems to be one of the best smaller rounds ballistically. Am I right in my thinking? Its trajectory etc matches somewhat the .300 Win Mag with much less recoil etc.

The .280 ackley was brought up today from a friend of mine. That is what he shoots and he shoots long range. Said he was shooting it 1,875 yards the other day. He admitted that he hit 2 out of 12 shots on a 2x3 plate, but that would be pretty cool. Shoots coyotes etc 800 yards plus.

Also I'm not totally new to guns or anything, just precision shooting. I've always had guns and reload now, but would like to get deeper involved. I'm not really one to sell a gun once I have it like I like, plus I see them as a long term investment.

The Surgeon RSR would be really nice, Thanks for putting me on it. It looks like it's only short action though. Would something like the .280 ackley need a long action?

What are you guys opinions on these? I'm not too worried about factory ammo as I have a .300 RUM, 6mm remington, .270, .223, etc to hunt with, etc.

I do appreciate it! </div></div>

Yep...you need a long action for the 280AI.

The big ? is,do you reload?

If not then Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor loads are made for long range and are reasonably cheap for match quality rounds.Same ballistics as 260 rem.

Steve
 
#20
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

If you shoot a lot and have limited funds I would stick with the .308 until money isn't as much of a question. Fast 6mm or 6.5mm cartridges will eat you barrel much faster then the .308, I won't even talk about WSM cartridges.

It sounds like you what an all around rifle on a limited budget. If so stick with the .308. Barrel life is much longer and factory ammo is much more prevalent.
 
#21
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

It's not that I'm too limited on funds I just don't want to go out and spend $3,000 all at once on a rifle. I want to collect the parts and build one. The .260 just really turns my crank. I don't really know why, but the ballistics looks awesome and shoot flatter than a .308. The .308 factory ammo would be nice, but I do reload and would with the .260 or .260AI. I just don't know about forming the brass etc for the .260 AI. That may be a little tricky for me. I'm not totally new to reloading, but I haven't done enough to know all about that.

I really like the RSR action and may think about building the .260 up on that. For some reason I'm just not feeling the .308...probably because I have to always make everything complicated!!!

I've read that the .260 won't burn a barrel out as fast as a 6.5x55, etc. Maybe every 3K-4K rounds? Is that correct?

Thanks for all the help. I've been on a number of shooting forums, clubs, etc. and this is by farm the most feedback I have ever gotten on a question...with details!!!
 
#22
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

We just completed a Surgeon repeater action with a custom cut rifled stainless barrel in .260 REM. This has a medium palma 26" barrel and target crown, screw cut for a moderator. Stock and bottom metal is AICS. It is a customers rifle who is an experienced shooter.

Our finding on this is its a relatively cost effective build with quite superb potential. Certainly advantagous over 308 beyond 750yds and cheap/easy to reload. We have since had at least 6 more enquiries to build the same.
 
#23
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KPK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not that I'm too limited on funds I just don't want to go out and spend $3,000 all at once on a rifle. I want to collect the parts and build one. The .260 just really turns my crank. I don't really know why, but the ballistics looks awesome and shoot flatter than a .308. The .308 factory ammo would be nice, but I do reload and would with the .260 or .260AI. I just don't know about forming the brass etc for the .260 AI. That may be a little tricky for me. I'm not totally new to reloading, but I haven't done enough to know all about that.

I really like the RSR action and may think about building the .260 up on that. For some reason I'm just not feeling the .308...probably because I have to always make everything complicated!!!

I've read that the .260 won't burn a barrel out as fast as a 6.5x55, etc. Maybe every 3K-4K rounds? Is that correct?

Thanks for all the help. I've been on a number of shooting forums, clubs, etc. and this is by farm the most feedback I have ever gotten on a question...with details!!! </div></div>

Depends on what load and how you push it. I've seen them go out with as little as 2000 but last as much as 5000. Same for the .308 seen them go 10,000 but also seen them burn up in less the 5000.

.260 is good but having a .308 around is always good. I have, or had them all, and I've always kept a .308, can't say that for the other calibers.
 
#24
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

with the difference in the action... are you just getting a more durable and stronger action going with surgeon....... accuracy comes from a nice match grade barrel right. if he had the action and lugs trued on a rem 700


the reason i asked my question was i have a donor action and am leaning towards a 6.5 creed
 
#25
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

KPK,

I've been a 260 Rem owner for a few years now. I love the caliber as does my 19 yr old daughter. I shoot Nosler and she shoots Rem brass. No mixing brass that way. I can't say the Nosler shoots better as I have more 'smithing into my rifle and it shows. It's a rifle I should never sell.

I'm also an Ackley shooter; 30-06 AI, not the 260. It feels good to know I can outperform the original case and I'm still not sure I'd do it again though I still shoot and reload for the rifle. Forming the cases allows for two typical ways to do it; firing with bullets and powder or....powder and Cream of Wheat/grits. I went with the COW and i'm sure it saved on my barrel life but will admit it's a bit more tedious to prep the fireforming charges and shoot them. I'd stick with the straight 260 over the AI version.

I'm in the process of cobbling together a rifle via parts as you are. First off, find an FFL and make friends with him. It might help with both prices and obtaining stuff quicker; maybe. Get him to assist you in buying your parts. Start with the barrel first as it may take the longest. I got lucky. My best friend did some miraculous phone calling to Krieger and got me a custom barrel someone else cancelled on and I had something similar to a Heavy Palma, 6.5, 1:8.5, 27" in about a month, as a present from him. AICS has three wholesalers in the US. Buy a 1.5 AICS from one since the will probably have them in stock. I got my Surgeon 591 SA through Brownells at dealer cost. Find a 'smith to assemble it all. I've got Chris Matthews of LongShotRifles doing mine for $300, in a few weeks. He's then Cerakoting it all for $200. Hope to have it all by 1st week of of the new year and shooting by end of month. I chose the 6.5x47 Lapua. I can get Lapua cases cheaper, per 100, than I can Nosler 260 Rem. I just have to buy new dies and that's going to hurt. I also took delivery of my new NF 5.5-22x50 last week too.

Good luck.

Alan
 
#26
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: poff762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with the difference in the action... are you just getting a more durable and stronger action going with surgeon....... accuracy comes from a nice match grade barrel right. if he had the action and lugs trued on a rem 700


the reason i asked my question was i have a donor action and am leaning towards a 6.5 creed </div></div>

If you have a donor 700 action I'd build off of it like you stated. If you want something custom later then go to one of the other custom manufacturers actions (Surgeon, Stiller, GAP, Badger Ordnance, etc).
 
#29
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

260REM, Lapua 6.5x47, Creedmoor6.5(Hornady) are all just about identical. One difference is brass available. One complaint I've heard several times about 260REM is lack of quality brass and spotty availability. Hornady is a great company with great products and I use their bullets for sure. But the Lapua brass is the best bar none and that's what I'd pick and why.

Oh, and I'd stick with the Remington donor action. That comes from someone who owns both an RSR and 591.
 
#31
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Thanks for the info Scooter I'll look into the 6.5x47 also!

Please elaborate on the choice of the donor remington? Considering I don't have anything right now, what would you do? Find a donor?
 
#33
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

Well guys looks like my wife may get me an action for christmas! Now I need to decide whether I want a rsr or 591. I would go with a remington, but just seems like after buying a rifel and tearing it apart and having the smith work on it it wouldn't be much different and I would have a bunch of worthless parts.

Also do I want to go with a .260? It seems to be a heck of a round...
 
#34
Re: R700 or Surgeon Action?

If you have the extra money to burn, go for the 591. I went with the RSR, I didnt see a need for the extra cost of the built in rail and lug. IMHO the RSR rail and lug are double pinned in place, and is good enough for me.
 
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