R700 Receiver versus?

[Møønlight]

I need some help here. I am not understanding something to well. I am getting ready to start a .308 build and would appreciate some help understanding something.

Some of the most highly regarded gunsmith's still prefer the R700 receiver over <span style="text-decoration: underline">any</span> other. A couple gunsmith's I have heard of are outperforming all the rest with the old R700 receiver.

One person I talked to said his 2 most accurate rifle's built by two different gunsmith's were both R700 receiver's but his favorite receiver is the Surgeon... I'm not understanding why someone's favorite receiver since than was a Surgeon when his most accurate rifle's come from the R700 receiver.

Can someone fill me in here?

Much appreciated,
Moon

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

A properly blueprinted Rem reciever will be competetive with most custom actions. The Remi bought and blueprinted will run almost the same as a custom. The customs are held to closer tolerances and are stiffer actions in general. Alot of the customs have nice creature comforts too like a side bolt release or an integral scope rail.

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>

Hi Chuck,

I don't believe he makes a living preferring a Remington over a Surgeon at all. Bottom line his rifle's are making smaller holes than the custom's are.

I have yet to find a builder using a fancy custom that perform's like these old school remington's do. Both of the builder's I know of doing this are A.J Brown Arms Co. and Tactical Operation's both using the remington's.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the action, barrel etc and it's the gunsmith making this happen.

Moon

 

[ackleyfan]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>

Hi Chuck,

I don't believe he makes a living preferring a Remington over a Surgeon at all. Bottom line his rifle's are making smaller holes than the custom's are.

I have yet to find a builder using a fancy custom that perform's like these old school remington's do. Both of the builder's I know of doing this are A.J Brown Arms Co. and Tactical Operation's both using the remington's.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the action, barrel etc and it's the gunsmith making this happen.

Moon </div></div>

It takes alot of extra work on a Rem 700 action to get the same accuracy as a Borden, Defiance or surgeon, the tolerences,stiffness and Fire control systems are way ahead of the remington 700, creating a much more consistant action!

 

[tacdrver]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ackleyfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>

Hi Chuck,

I don't believe he makes a living preferring a Remington over a Surgeon at all. Bottom line his rifle's are making smaller holes than the custom's are.

I have yet to find a builder using a fancy custom that perform's like these old school remington's do. Both of the builder's I know of doing this are A.J Brown Arms Co. and Tactical Operation's both using the remington's.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the action, barrel etc and it's the gunsmith making this happen.

Moon </div></div>

It takes alot of extra work on a Rem 700 action to get the same accuracy as a Borden, Defiance or surgeon, the tolerences,stiffness and Fire control systems are way ahead of the remington 700, creating a much more consistant action!
</div></div>

your right alot of extra work for the remington...but alot of extra money for the surgeon.. my blue printed remy is throwing sub 1/4 inch groups @100 for a fraction of the cost

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ackleyfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>

Hi Chuck,

I don't believe he makes a living preferring a Remington over a Surgeon at all. Bottom line his rifle's are making smaller holes than the custom's are.

I have yet to find a builder using a fancy custom that perform's like these old school remington's do. Both of the builder's I know of doing this are A.J Brown Arms Co. and Tactical Operation's both using the remington's.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the action, barrel etc and it's the gunsmith making this happen.

Moon </div></div>

It takes alot of extra work on a Rem 700 action to get the same accuracy as a Borden, Defiance or surgeon, the tolerences,stiffness and Fire control systems are way ahead of the remington 700, creating a much more consistant action!
</div></div>

Thanks for the response,

If these action's are so much more consistant, why are the rifle's not shooting as good?

I have yet for someone to explain to me why this is. Sorry for the lack of experience knowledge in this area. Maybe the barrel work has a lot more to do with it?

Moon

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tac243</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ackleyfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture? i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>

Hi Chuck,

I don't believe he makes a living preferring a Remington over a Surgeon at all. Bottom line his rifle's are making smaller holes than the custom's are.

I have yet to find a builder using a fancy custom that perform's like these old school remington's do. Both of the builder's I know of doing this are A.J Brown Arms Co. and Tactical Operation's both using the remington's.

Maybe this has nothing to do with the action, barrel etc and it's the gunsmith making this happen.

Moon </div></div>

It takes alot of extra work on a Rem 700 action to get the same accuracy as a Borden, Defiance or surgeon, the tolerences,stiffness and Fire control systems are way ahead of the remington 700, creating a much more consistant action!
</div></div>

your right alot of extra work for the remington...but alot of extra money for the surgeon.. my blue printed remy is throwing sub 1/4 inch groups @100 for a fraction of the cost </div></div>

See I got a quote. His rifle's are going for $1000 less than these other custom's and they are shooting sub moa. Why are people spending more money when they are not achieving this? Maybe because they are popular?

Other than that I have not seen any customs perform like this yet. This is why I started this thread. The two most accurate rifle companies I have seen are far much more accurate than the other's.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I beleive what the other posters are saying about the Remington action is from the Gunsmith's POV he can make alot more money tweeking a Remington action for a customer than retailing a Surgeon action.

Having shot several Surgeon actioned rifles I find it VERY odd a smith cant bolt together a rifle that groups as well as any tweeked Remington version.

Personally I believe you can shoot some tiny azzed groups with a tweeked Savage as well as any tweeked Remington.

Good Luck

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive what the other posters are saying about the Remington action is from the Gunsmith's POV he can make alot more money tweeking a Remington action for a customer than retailing a Surgeon action.

Having shot several Surgeon actioned rifles I find it VERY odd a smith cant bolt together a rifle that groups as well as any tweeked Remington version.

Personally I believe you can shoot some tiny azzed groups with a tweeked Savage as well as any tweeked Remington.

Good Luck

</div></div>

Thanks nqr,

That's not what I am reading in general. I am getting a lot of different answer's. As I said above, I was quoted a lot cheaper than the custom's go for. I have researched the Holy living heck out of this and I can only come to the conclusion that he is building more accurate rifle's ford 2/3rds the cost of what most people are spending using the custom action and at the same time building a rifle that is a better performer.

I have yet to see a response that can challenge that fact other than one person who mentioned said it above about his being blueprinted. Which confuses me even more, he wants me to provide the receiver and took the time to tell me where I could get it the cheapest at etc. This takes blueprinting out of the question completely...

Moon

 

[WhiteDingo]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive what the other posters are saying about the Remington action is from the Gunsmith's POV he can make alot more money tweeking a Remington action for a customer than retailing a Surgeon action.

Having shot several Surgeon actioned rifles I find it VERY odd a smith cant bolt together a rifle that groups as well as any tweeked Remington version.

Personally I believe you can shoot some tiny azzed groups with a tweeked Savage as well as any tweeked Remington.

Good Luck

</div></div>

Thanks nqr,

That's not what I am reading in general. I am getting a lot of different answer's. As I said above, I was quoted a lot cheaper than the custom's go for. I have researched the Holy living heck out of this and I can only come to the conclusion that he is building more accurate rifle's ford 2/3rds the cost of what most people are spending using the custom action and at the same time building a rifle that is a better performer.

I have yet to see a response that can challenge that fact other than one person who mentioned said it above about his being blueprinted. Which confuses me even more, he wants me to provide the receiver and took the time to tell me where I could get it the cheapest at etc. This takes blueprinting out of the question completely...

Moon </div></div>

Moon,

Why does you providing the action take blueprinting out of the question completely?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but if you provide the action, your gunsmith can take posession of the action, then "blueprint"/true the action, and then start the barrel work.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Is your assertion that the trued (blueprinted) Remington shoots better than any custom actioned rifle?

If it is i would disagree. My own experience with custom actions has been very good. My buddies at Benchmark Barrels put together a custom action rifle as a sort of testing ground for making a Signature Rifle with very positive results; you can read about it <span style="color: #3366FF">HERE</span>.

Tac Ops makes a consistently great rifle. Mike does extensive trueing work. I would say that a trued Remington shoots <span style="text-decoration: underline">AS</span> good as a custom for sure. From what i remember reading Mike examines each Remington action to see if they are within his specs before considering to true it and build on it, if he cant get the results he's after he gets a different action. Factory Remingtons can flex quite a bit too so the bedding job has to be perfect also.

The bottom line is both factory and trued actions have their share of trophies in the Bench arena's but most of those guys are using custom actions. What does that tell you? That they're paying too much for their fancy actions? Or that their results are consistently better with customs?

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Moon,
First of all go to the bench rest Comps. You will be hard pressed to find any one shooting a blue printed Remington.
That tells you what shoots better............

Second, Compare apples to apples...
Remington action( stainless not blued, plus trueing equals about same price as custom action....) except now you have custom, not a Remington....

 

[taseal]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

the way life goes is that, when someone spends so much money on a custom. they will defend it to the end.

to them, a custom will always shoot a blueprinted R700

I'm not sure if you know what truing (blueprinting) a rifle is. I was confused about this too.

check out the series of videos. here is part 1. there are like 13 parts to it.

This is the owner of Suarez Tactical in miami. He will be blueprinting my rifle and putting a new barrel in. he has a 2 month wait right now though =/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n191F9c1YiQ

I personally think it's more fun to customize a rifle. even if it's not me doing it. you see your rifle transform.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I assure I know what blue printing a rifle is.... I have spent thousands of dollars to learn what blue printing is..... and is not....
That is why I just buy Stiller actions( approx. 950.00 w/ pic rail, bigger straighter recoil lug than R700. Heat treated correctly so as to not be bowed like some r700 actions.
You will have at least that into a blue printed R700. ( if done correctly )
Yes Ozzie does it correctly, he is a good friend of mine.
Let me say it is just as fun picking out all the custom parts and having them put together, and ending up with a truly custom gun, Not just a R700 with lipstick and rouge.....
Also, I must add this " it is who is behind the gun that makes it shoot "

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Thanks for the raining replies so far!

Please bare with me gent's. Still learning the basic's here. I have A LOT to learn especially when it comes to the custom world. I appreciate the patients so far.

Seems like most people responding here stand fast to their custom's which I respect. I am trying to justify the extra $1000 for the custom. All I care about is accuracy and durability. Having a rifle that is going to shoot dimes for years is the goal of course

When I mentioned the action I wanted he mentioned that the particular action didn't handle "heat" as well. Not quite sure what that meant, but it has to do something while building.

All I care about is having a good field rifle put together for me that is going to be accurate and won't fail me when it's dirty out.

Right now it's a choice between going to a custom action or having him build the rifle using the Remington SA.

Keem the input coming. I have much more to learn when it comes to just about all of this.

Thank a lot you all,
Moon

 

[neeley205]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need some help here. I am not understanding something to well. I am getting ready to start a .308 build and would appreciate some help understanding something.

Some of the most highly regarded gunsmith's still prefer the R700 receiver over <span style="text-decoration: underline">any</span> other. A couple gunsmith's I have heard of are outperforming all the rest with the old R700 receiver.

One person I talked to said his 2 most accurate rifle's built by two different gunsmith's were both R700 receiver's but his favorite receiver is the Surgeon... I'm not understanding why someone's favorite receiver since than was a Surgeon when his most accurate rifle's come from the R700 receiver.

Can someone fill me in here?

Much appreciated,
Moon </div></div>

Because there is far more to a rifle than poking holes close together in paper at 100yds. There are other factors that many people like to consider when paying the money to have a rifle built. Larger bolt diameter, one piece bolts (there are many documented cases of the handles breaking off from rem bolts when trying to open after the bolt binds), different lug angles for added extraction, smoother operation, tighter tolerances for BR shooters, shorter bolt throw, RH bolt LH ejection, integrated recoil lugs, and thats just to name a few reasons.

Not to mention having your action shipped directly to you with everything you want/need ready to barrel, knowing that it was all purpose built and designed to work in harmony. Rather than getting a base action, and sending it off the get worked on and waiting for anything between a couple weeks and a year depending on who you use.

If none of this matters to you, and to many it genuinely doesnt, get a rem action and have it blueprinted. Im having one done right now, but I also have a defiance action being built on one of my rifles because my purpose for that rifle differs from the rem Im having blueprinted.

For example the defiance Im having put into a rifle: stainless, .750 one piece bolt and handle, m-16 extractor, "tac" bolt handle, lugs angled for added extraction, side bolt release, cut for AW mags, fluted bolt, comes with a 20moa rail with larger mounting screws and a double pinned recoil lug. thats all I can think of right off the top of my head. now go Buy yourself a stainless 700 action and send it off to a smith with that list of upgrades (including a 20moa rail that he needs to machine to mate perfectly with the action so you dont have to bed it) and see what price he quotes you.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Moon,
It is all about money.
What The deciding factor on a custom build really hedges on is one thing ( if money is the first factor) It is the Stock....not the action....
Here is what I mean..Blue printing a R700 action is about the same as a custom action, but If you do not need a Mcmillan, Manners stock and are okay with the H-S Precision or the Bell & Carlson. Then buy a R700 complete gun w/ H-S Precision stock and have it blue printed... rebarreled,bedded,jewel trigger etc....
You will have a gun that shoots great but does not cost as much....

 

[AJBello]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am trying to justify the extra $1000 for the custom. </div></div>

Part of the problem you're having is believing the custom is $1000 extra. It's not.

You already have the Remington, but what could you sell it for? Probably at least $400 or so. Then add the roughly $250 it's going to cost to have the Remmy trued. Now you're at $650. Figure $1000(ish) for a R700 clone custom. So really, it would only be $350 or so more for the custom, and you'll be getting a lot for that money. Better resale value, one piece bolt, side bolt release, pinned scope base and recoil lug, maybe a better extractor, etc, etc, etc.

I went through the exact same decision on my 338 Edge build. Already had a R700 Sendero II barreled action ready to go. Here's my reasoning, quoted from my build thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I originally planned on using a Rem700 action that I had from my Sendero II. After looking into some aftermarket 700 foot print actions, I opted to sell the Remington and snag a Surgeon RLR. This made a lot of sense to me... I sold my Rem700 barreled action (with Badger rail) for $525. Truing the action would have been $250, which would have meant (in essence) a $775 action. I was able to buy the Surgeon for $850 with their 20 MOA rail. The extra features of the Surgeon (and just a custom action in general), were well worth the extra $75 to me! </div></div>

As for a trued R700 being MORE accurate than a quality custom... ah, no. As accurate if trued by a good 'smith? Sure. But it's still just a Remmy without the nice upgrades of most customs.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Also, If you add a PTG bolt to your Remington blue printing process your more than 250.00 for blue printing....
Also add a sako style extractor or m-16 Extractor...

 

[taseal]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assure I know what blue printing a rifle is.... I have spent thousands of dollars to learn what blue printing is..... and is not....
That is why I just buy Stiller actions( approx. 950.00 w/ pic rail, bigger straighter recoil lug than R700. Heat treated correctly so as to not be bowed like some r700 actions.
You will have at least that into a blue printed R700. ( if done correctly )
Yes Ozzie does it correctly, he is a good friend of mine.
Let me say it is just as fun picking out all the custom parts and having them put together, and ending up with a truly custom gun, Not just a R700 with lipstick and rouge.....
Also, I must add this " it is who is behind the gun that makes it shoot " </div></div>

it wasn't at you, it was tot he OP. I understand stiller is a custom action, but I think it's still a remington 700. to me it's like a pre trued action.

it's def the shooter who makes it happen. I remember I shot the highest in my company in boot camp, and when the Drill sgts were going to shoot, he goes to me YILDIZ, which rifle is yours?. I told him which one was mine and when he picked it up to use it, I said. Drill Sgt, it's not the rifle, it's the shooter behind it. he wasn't pretty happy with that remark and made me do pushups for a while. LOL

 

[neeley205]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I understand stiller is a custom action, but I think it's still a remington 700. to me it's like a pre trued action.</div></div>

Its not "pre tuned" its purpose built, there is a difference.

I realize that wording sounds like Im trying to be rude, Im not, just to the point.

 

[Aries64]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he makes a living preferring a remington over a surgeon. he cant charge you $150 to blueprint a surgeon or $75 to install a bolt handle or $100 to install a side bolt release or $25 to pin a recoil lug or.........are you getting the picture?</div></div>
I hesitate to say this as I don't want to start a shit storm or dredge-up stuff from years ago, but it needs to be said: While buying a custom action will undoubtedly get you a stiffer action with much better machining, better specifications, and tighter tolerances out-of-the-box, it does not guarantee that the action is perfect and that no additional machine work is necessary for ultimate performance.

And as beautifully designed and machined as Surgeon actions are, when rifles are built by the right gunsmith rifles built on Remington actions can be every bit as accurate as rifles built on custom actions. Before I had my X-Ray 51 built I spoke with Mike Rescigno about using a custom action, and Mike said that while he would build my X-Ray on a custom action if I wanted, in the end the completed rifle wouldn't shoot more accurately than a rifle built on a Remington 700 action.

I happen to have known Mike Rescigno for about 20 years now, and I know that he makes recommendations based on what will work best for the customer, not what will make him more money. I would have been fine with spending several hundred dollars more for a custom action over a re-worked Remington but saw no reason to use a custom. I chose to have Mike build on a Remington action because I am more concerned with the end results than what others say about my choice of action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i like remingtons fine and some of my best shooting rifles have been remingtons as well. but, i still prefer the plug and play ease of barreling a good custom receiver vs. truing up a remington.

chuck </div></div>
While a Remington definitely requires a lot of work out-of-the-box (and again - I don't want to start a shit storm), its' not like you just chamber and spin a barrel onto a custom receiver. I know Tac Ops doesn't. For one thing, Tac Ops uses a special receiver-to-barrel connection - and depending upon the rifle, Tac Ops barrels are torqued between 220ft lbs. and 280ft lbs. This method of receiver-to-barrel attachment helps Tac Ops rifles maintain their same POI as the receiver and barrel heat up and is just a tiny part of what Tac Ops does to ensure that their rifles meet or exceed Tac Op's accuracy standard. Tac Ops still machines custom actions <span style="font-style: italic">as required</span> to keep all tolerances within Tac Ops standards as well as to add certain Tac Ops enhancements.

Squareness and parallelism of all surfaces as well as concentricity cannot be overstated. Mike Rescigno at Tac Ops has said:

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"Having the locking lugs ultra flat and ultra smooth also allows the case head to align the bolt in the receiver, as it closes, rather than the bolt influencing the cartridge. For this reason the looseness of the Remington receiver doesn't affect the way our rifles shoot, and allows valuable space for the dirt and sand to fall out of them. Our system of loose receiver/ floating bolt/ tight chamber, seems to work on any bolt receiver we've tried it on.

It has been successful on a wide variety of bolt actions. It seems that the receiver is just there to support the bolt until it is correctly locked up."</span></span>

So along with maintaining squareness, parallelism, and concentricty of all surfaces to extremely exacting standards, <span style="font-style: italic">the most influential components of the rifle affecting accuracy are from the cartridge forward, with the receiver acting as a guide for the bolt prior to lockup.</span> Tac Ops rifles seem to be postive proof of this, and I believe that this is one of the reasons that Tac Ops rifles built on Remington actions shoot so amazingly accurately and consistently.


Keith

 

[noneck180]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I went with a Surgeon because there is 2 pieces of steel for the bolt body and action rail and lug and I like that.

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

i believe the OP has his mind made up and just wants some assurance that he is making the right decision to have his rifle built on a remington. i have built quite a few rifles on both remington and custom receivers and this is what i know from experience. a properly built remington will shoot as good as a custom TO A DEGREE. i wouldnt build a remington ppc and expect to win the supershoot with it. however, in a tactical or hunting rifle a remington can work VERY well. but i can only see ONE reason the smith would tell you that the remington is better than the surgeon and that is because he makes more money building the remington. someone else pointed out that the customs are not always flawless as well and that can be true but it is likely the exception and not the rule. its your money. spend it how you like but if you ever want to sell the rifle, you will take a beating on the remington based rifle compared to a custom. a lot of people will not even consider a used custom on a remington unless it is a rediculously good deal.

chuck

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

+1000 selfbowhunter,

The other factor is pride..
The pride of having a custom gun.. When you go out to the range, or to deer camp,or at your house... when you pull out that true custom gun ( in front of guys that know about guns, not your buddy that does not even shoot ) You will never have to make the remark, " I know it is just a Remington, but it shoots. ) or " it is just as good as a custom gun."
In the real world you will only pay a couple of hundred dollars for the true custom. The day you shoot the first round the R700 version lose 1000.00 minimum......

 

[clmayfield]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I defy anyone to build a more accurate stick than Mike Rescigno builds on a blueprinted R700. Now, it can be argued that a custom will hold its value better than a Remington 700. That is true most of the time, but when you use some of the more famous smiths, it is probably less true. I could probably sell my Tac Ops today for more than I bought it for. And I would never do that (which is probably why they sell for more than original price).

If you are using a lesser known smith, the custom action will hold value better. A custom action is typically not $1,000 more than a 700, BTW. You have to buy the 700 and then put some work into it. A custom action requires less work and usually has additional features that you must add to the 700.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Carter, I understand your support of mike. There are 1000's of Gunsmiths that can
build a rifle that shoots.

The reason Mike uses R700 and pushes R700 is because he gets the money for Blue printing. He is selling Billed hours. That is not a good or bad thing. It is what it is. He is in Business to make money buy charging hours of gunsmithing. WE love Gunsmiths they help us, but there is not just one Holy Grail Gunsmith. Everybody has their favorites.

So what you are saying is the resale value is tied to the gunsmith not the gun.
So if you had a Tac Ops built on a custom action then it would also sell for more. I think that is the point we are trying to make for the OP. In the end spend the 200.00 or 300.00 extra and go true custom.... And have peace of mind.

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

No I haven't made my mind up just yet. I want to know for sure without a doubt on my mind what receiver/action I want to go with.

I am hearing the same thing I have been hearing for the past couple year's, someone "TacOps in this case" will build with a custom action, but your going to loose accuracy.

This is definately not what I need.

These are my 2 goals for this build:
1. As accurate as possible
2. Reliable field rifle

This is a good debate and I would like to keep it going. Bottom line gent's, I am going to go with the action that provides the two things I want most in this rifle period. Accuracy and reliability.

Thanks for all the responses so far!
Moon

 

[Sgt.Henry]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

These are my 2 goals for this build:
1. As accurate as possible
2. Reliable field rifle

This is a good debate and I would like to keep it going. Bottom line gent's, I am going to go with the action that provides the two things I want most in this rifle period. Accuracy and reliability.
Moon
</div></div>
Then you need an AW!

But seriously, with stocks not withstanding, as long as the action is "True" its more about the chamber and the barrel.

I wouldn't be able to live on the difference between my customs and my trued Remmingtons

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Moon,

Most gunsmiths can build what you are looking for. If you want the BEST, as well as knowing that only 20 people will have one like you. You should go with this action.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

+1 SGT. HENRY

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Who makes that one?

 

[Sgt.Henry]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

It's a Stiller and its endangering my marriage,

 

[Aries64]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I defy anyone to build a more accurate stick than Mike Rescigno builds on a blueprinted R700. Now, it can be argued that a custom will hold its value better than a Remington 700. That is true most of the time, but when you use some of the more famous smiths, it is probably less true. I could probably sell my Tac Ops today for more than I bought it for. And I would never do that (which is probably why they sell for more than original price).

If you are using a lesser known smith, the custom action will hold value better. A custom action is typically not $1,000 more than a 700, BTW. You have to buy the 700 and then put some work into it. A custom action requires less work and usually has additional features that you must add to the 700. </div></div>
All true statements and excellent points, <span style="font-style: italic">Carter</span>. Most importantly, input from a shooter who actually shoots and owns a Tac Ops rifle, rather than conjecture from the masses who have no experience with them on a professional or personal level.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1000 selfbowhunter,

The other factor is pride..
The pride of having a custom gun..</div></div>
There is plenty of pride of ownership (as well as the confidence of someone who <span style="font-style: italic">knows</span> that his or her rifle performs) by those who own Tac Ops rifles. Thousands of professionals who are issued Tac Ops rifles for duty also have pride and confidence in their rifles - they just don't own them. Civilian or operator, all of these individuals know that their rifles will perform, period.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you go out to the range, or to deer camp,or at your house... when you pull out that true custom gun ( in front of guys that know about guns, not your buddy that does not even shoot ) You will never have to make the remark, " I know it is just a Remington, but it shoots. ) or " it is just as good as a custom gun."</div></div>
With respect, if you pull-out a Tac Ops rifle in front of guys that <span style="font-style: italic">really know about guns and shoot</span>, you also will never have to make the remark, <span style="font-style: italic">"I know it is just a Remington, but it shoots"</span> or <span style="font-style: italic">"It is just as good as a custom gun."</span> They know and understand what is in front of them and would never make such un-educated, narrow-minded remarks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the real world you will only pay a couple of hundred dollars for the true custom. The day you shoot the first round the R700 version lose 1000.00 minimum......</div></div>
As <span style="font-style: italic">Carter Mayfield</span> pointed-out, there is typically not a $1,000.00 cost differential between a M700 and a custom action, the M700 will need more work than a custom, and a custom action usually has additional features that need to be added to an M700 if so desired.

Also, as <span style="font-style: italic">Carter</span> pointed-out, a rifle built by a lesser-known gunsmith on a custom action will tend to hold it's value better than if built on an M700 action, but with a rifle built by a better-known gunsmith this tends to be less true. Tac Ops rifle's extreme, consistent accuracy, insane attention-to-detail, and incredible build-quality make Tac Ops rifles so highly sought-after that used Tac Ops rifles don't tend to depreciate much at all, even though they are typically built on lowly M700 actions.


Keith

 

[Aries64]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No I haven't made my mind up just yet. I want to know for sure without a doubt on my mind what receiver/action I want to go with.</div></div>
I thought about using a Surgeon RSR because I like the side-bolt release and I didn't want an integrated rail. However, I don't care for the straight bolt handle, so since I knew that a M700-based Tac Ops rifle would shoot as accurately as a Surgeon-based Tac Ops rifle I went with the M700 action. Like I said - I'm more concerned with the end results than what others say about my choice of action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am hearing the same thing I have been hearing for the past couple year's, someone "TacOps in this case" will build with a custom action, but your going to loose accuracy.

This is definately not what I need.</div></div>
I don't know where you heard or read that you will lose accuracy if you have a Tac Ops built on a custom action. Respectfully, where did you hear or read that and are you sure your didn't misunderstand? Tac Ops builds rifles on custom actions all the time, and Tac Ops rifles built on custom actions shoot with the same accuracy and hold the same accuracy guarantee as Tac Ops rifles built on Remington actions. I've seen Tac Ops rifles built on Surgeon, Defiance, and Skunkworks actions ranging from .260 Remington through .338LM and .50. All shoot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are my 2 goals for this build:
1. As accurate as possible
2. Reliable field rifle

This is a good debate and I would like to keep it going. Bottom line gent's, I am going to go with the action that provides the two things I want most in this rifle period. Accuracy and reliability.

Thanks for all the responses so far!
Moon
</div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">In the hands of the right gunsmith</span>, a Remington or custom action will easily meet your two criteria. If you are having a Tac Ops rifle built, don't think that a custom action will hinder you in the accuracy or field reliability department at all (although you shouldn't use a BAT, Nesika, or action setup for Benchrench as they're not forgiving of dirt, grit, and other debris in the action). Mike would advise and recommend you on components.


Keith

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I Am sure TAC OPS build a good rifle.
I am also sure that there are at least 500 other gunsmiths out there, that build at the same standard........
The mechanics of putting rifles together are all the same.........

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

The one major point is there is only 20 of those Special Stiller action being made. Send it to Tac Ops. and you can have a 1-20 awesome shooting rifle.

 

[Møønlight]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Thank you for all the replies.

Please don't turn this in to a TacOp's vs all thread please. I know Tactical Operation's is building one of the ONLY rifle's that is guarenteeing .25 moa or better <span style="text-decoration: underline">center to center</span>.

Not saying that there isn't other companie's and gunsmith's that are incapable of doing this. I know A.J Brown Arms Co. is producing the same accuracy but they don't guarentee anything.

I have decided on a custom action. Which one I don't know at this time. It seems to me most of your accuracy "from the rifle's standpoint" is done by the gunsmith regardless of what receiver/action/barrel is being used.

I don't care to spend much more than $3500 on a rifle because I believe you should be spending close to the same amount on quality glass.

Thanks again for all the replie's. Keep the advice coming if you will, just do it calmly and collectively as possible.

Moon

 

[Aries64]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carter, I understand your support of mike.</div></div>
Really? What is your understanding of <span style="font-style: italic">Carter Mayfield</span>'s support of Mike?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There are 1000's of Gunsmiths that can
build a rifle that shoots.</div></div>
True. However, to approach Tac Ops accuracy people are typically using pet handloads rather than factory ammunition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason Mike uses R700 and pushes R700 is because he gets the money for Blue printing.</div></div>
The above is, pardon the pun - an inaccurate statemment. Tac Ops builds on R700s' because most of his business is LE agency-related, and LE departments and special units typically use R700 rifles as their primary long rifle. The R700 action is universally-known by these agencies and special units as well as the public, so when agencies and special units are looking for extremely accurate, consistent, well-built long arms Tac Ops rifles are an easy choice from both practical and legal standpoints. Choosing to build-on and perfect accurizing techniques on the R700 was and is a shrewd professional move on Mike's part. 18 years, more than 600 agencies and units worldwide, and thousands of rifles performing as designed are a testament to R700 actions and Tac Ops rifles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is selling Billed hours. That is not a good or bad thing. It is what it is. He is in Business to make money buy charging hours of gunsmithing. WE love Gunsmiths they help us, but there is not just one Holy Grail Gunsmith. Everybody has their favorites.</div></div>
As already discussed, the cost differential works-out to be several hundred dollars. If you must have a custom for bling factor to impress others the increased cost of a custom action is rather insignificant. Sure, Mike is in business to make money, but his passion and drive is to manufacture true masterpieces of shooting art, most of which are used by professionals to keep the good guys safe. Some gunsmiths have different priorities and would rather crank-out rifles as fast as they can and/or bill more hours to maximize profits. Mike isn't one of them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying is the resale value is tied to the gunsmith not the gun.</div></div>
I won't presume to know what <span style="font-style: italic">Carter</span> is saying, but in a way, "yes". Some people, but not everyone, appreciate and are after rifles that are not only supremely accurate, but qualify as genuine masterpieces of shooting art that are beautiful to look at as well. Some people think all rifles are the same, but this is far from the case.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you had a Tac Ops built on a custom action then it would also sell for more. I think that is the point we are trying to make for the OP. In the end spend the 200.00 or 300.00 extra and go true custom.... And have peace of mind. </div></div>
Theorietically and traditionally a rifle built on a custom action should garner a better price than a rifle built on a Remington 700 action. As <span style="font-style: italic">Carter</span> and I mentioned this may or may not be the case. When you're talking about Tac Ops rifles you're talking about rifles on a level and in a class all they're own.

On the other hand, the reality is most people perceive a rifle built on a custom action as better than one built on a Remington. On a Tac Ops rifle it won't make any accuracy difference, but since its' all about perception, if someone is thinking about resale value down the line maybe he or she should have his or her Tac Ops rifle built on a custom action as "insurance".

However, once someone has a Tac Ops rifle selling it would almost assuredly be based on financial need. The reality is that once you have a Tac Ops you will want another...


Keith

 

[Aries64]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I Am sure TAC OPS build a good rifle.
I am also sure that there are at least 500 other gunsmiths out there, that build at the same standard........
The mechanics of putting rifles together are all the same......... </div></div>
EPIC.

 

[elkhuntinguide]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I would imagine a good smith can put together a rifle that will shoot better than you are capable of shooting...Start with quality parts and you will get a quality return for your money...

I see a trend of late that seems its all about impressing the masses with all the "purty" things verses marksman ship skills... There is more to a rifle than just the receiver... All parts in building a rifle should be taken into consideration... Pride should be in your marksmanship skills, not it what you brung to the show...

I see this over and over in hunting camps when hunters show up with their Super Duper builds... When they miss somehow that "Pride" of having a one of a kind custom seems to dissipate into humiliation... Then the excuses start... Which is always hilarious...

Below is a pic of two rifles.... The one in the foreground is built off of a Remington Action... The rifle cost just a cunt hair under $1100 to build with parts bought here off the 'Hide... The rifle in the rear is a "Custom" built off a Surgeon action and was right around $3400 to build IIRC... Both prices are minus optics of course...

Both rifles can shoot under 1/2 MOA using Factory Ammo... The custom with 3 different loads... The Remmy with 5 different loads... If money is of no concern then by all means go full bore on your build...

Keep in mind the rifle will only shoot to your capabilities...

 

[Fx1]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Why would you want to spend $700 polishing a turd?

When you can spend $1000 on a gem

 

[clmayfield]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I think this thread kind of went the wrong direction. For custom vs. blue-printed Rem 700, a smith who knows what he is doing can make the 700 shoot as well as a custom... especially in the tactical and hunting markets. That is a fact. The 700 will not shoot better than a custom, but it also won't shoot worse.

Of course, blueprinting doesn't have a universal meaning, so the degree of work one smith puts into blueprinting may not match the degree of work that another smith puts in. This is part of the reason that guns with custom actions hold their resale value so well.

On a different note, there is more to an action than just how well it shoots. If you want a left hand bolt release, fluted bolt, different extractor, or any of the other various little jobs that smiths do to an action, you are better off buying a custom action from the get go because there is no way you are going to get that money back out in resale and the bill you run up will be very close to just buying a custom action in the first place.

Also, if you want something not standard... a medium action for instance, or if you want a shorter bolt throw, or if you like positive feed, or even if you want to feed AW mags... you are better off going with a custom.

Note that none of the reasons to go with a custom I mentioned above have to do with accuracy or reliability, which was the OP's chief concern.

In terms of durability (which is kin to reliability), a Surgeon with integral pic rail and integral recoil lug has fewer things that can go wrong. The only downside there is that if you want to switch the cant on the rail or if you do mess up the rail, it won't be as simple as changing it out.

With a custom action, you can order up all sorts of little things that are user preference, like putting the port on another side or even forgoing an ejector in the Barnard action (which is a good idea for F-class and benchrest, but not much else). Again, all of these things have to do with user preference, not with accuracy.

I was looking for a post that I read from Randy @ R&D Precision (HATECA). I couldn't find it, but basically, he outlines all the above. If you want the R700 with no mods, the blueprinted Remington + a good smith will get you anywhere a custom can. As soon as you decide to change spec, you are better off going the custom route. Wish I could find that post (and I was on the other side of that debate at the time, if I remember correctly).

 

[Vin]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

If you want accuracy and reliability, get an Accuracy International. I have a custom also that is no more accurate and definitely not as reliable as my AI or my TRG 22. Just my opinion. You know what they say, buy once and cry once. An AI or Sako also hold their value more than a custom. I am referring to field rifles that are designed to be accurate and reliable under less than ideal conditions, not benchrest type guns with very tight tolerances for use on a square range with known distances etc. After all, this is snipershide, not high power or benchrest hide.:-D

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Seriously guys if you haven't read this article click on the link! <span style="color: #3366FF">READ</span> It comes with a 500yd garauntee! With Fed GMM it printed a .09" at 100yds. The group pictured were the only 3 rounds of GMM fired through it and it wasn't a cherry picked group. It is not rifle Voodoo just good machining practices. These guys are good friends of mine, I have seen alot of their work and the results are consistent (you should see their 7wsm's!). To think that Tac Ops is the only builder out there building to that level of quality isn't true. I do believe some ego is involved with some guys swearing by their custom actions but i think the same ego is driving guys swearing by their $4200 Tac Ops. The real evidence seems to speak for itself; you can get similar results accuracy wise with either action but a custom is a much more rigid and higher quality piece of steel and machining.

As far as the comment on Customs not being forgiving of debris...I respectfully disagree! My BAT VRPIC Repeater has functioned without a single hiccup for every competition and hunting trip i have taken with it; from the high country, heavy rain in Oregon, and the desert. It is a wonderful piece of engineering. It has tight tolerances but still allows for debris. The raceway is not cut round so as to minimize friction with the bolt. The bolt is also heavily fluted to minimize surface friction with the raceway. This thing glides like it's on ball bearings. It has .0015" bolt to raceway clearance.

Pics of Benchmark's Signature .308win.

 

[SS-8541-dono]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

nice action , it reminds me of my surgeon 591 with the integral rail and recoil lug.

 

[Tactical]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

Wow, this always goes wrong.

Moon in our many pms back and forth I told you if I was going to build a ground up rifle I would get a Surgeoun RSR action because I thought it was good deal for money. In that you dont pay a smith to true it like you would a Remington. It already has a great bolt handle on it so you dont have to pay to have that modification done either. It was a savings reason. Surgeon RSR is great value. I alos told you I would demand pilars be installed by who ever you picked. Some dont like pilars but I see no downside to them being in the stock. My opinion for what its worth.

That was in no way to suggest anything wrong with Remington at all. I knew you wanted to save money honestly figured within a year you would have it for sale. The Remington unless a top dollar build would not hold its value as well as the Surgeon, in my opinion except for one smiths work, Tac Ops. Tac Ops hold value very well but his Remington builds are not typical. They are far above norm.

A Remington will shoot as well as any action on the market if done correctly. My Tacops Tac 51 will shoot factory ammo better than anything else I have. I have seen a trend amoung some top F Open shooters to use Remington actions to save weight, so its not an accuracy thing.

Now for F TR I use a Barnard because frankly I am so over loading the ammo, I feel better with three huge lugs instead of two normal sized ones. It has nothing to do with accuracy, but my brass is being pushed harder than it should. I want more steel around the brass for my protection. With that said the Barnard would suck as a sniper action because its too heavy and tight for field use.

Most of my sniper type rifles are built on Remington actions. They all shoot fantastic.

I have spoken with Mike R about possible use of RSR Actions but he uses Remingtons because thats what he knows inside and out, to make a .25 moa rifle. I bet he could do the same with an RSR but he does not want to mess with perfection and why blame him. His way works.

 

[SIE107]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

I like Barnard actions. Don't have to have them blueprinted. Resonable price and the action comes with a fabulous trigger.

 

[ColBatGuano]

Re: R700 Receiver versus?

My best 5-shot group with my Surgeon was .26 with factory ammo (GM308M2), that's not unusual for Surgeon or GAP, and I'm a crappy group shooter so I'm sure it can do better.

Maybe I misunderstood you Moon, but I got the impression that you believe custom actions in general don't shoot as well as R700. It might be a truer statement that your gunsmith friend can't get custom actions to shoot as well as he can R700's. That would be a gunsmith issue.

Every custom 700 shooter that runs my Surgeon covets it (to include professional shooters). That's a fact and has nothing to do with my preference. Heck, I like my Savage action in a Manner stock (.50 MOA) but it is not a Surgeon (or GAP, Stiller, Defiance, etc.)

At the end of the day a well-tuned 700 is an awesome piece of kit and will get 'er done. And my Surgeon doesn't make me a better shooter than a R700 shooter, but I believe the feel, fit, reliability, and feeling of owning something built to be excellent without needing modification, make it a thing worth having.

I actually plan to own a custom R700 in my future -- but more from an interest in firearms in general than a thought that it may surpass my Surgeon.

If I had to choose one gun for serious practical rifle work...I would go with the AI. But I won't sell my Surgeon to get it.