Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

D

DPRoberts

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Mar 8, 2011
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St.Louis, MO
#1
I'm new to reloading and have done piles of reading on the multitude of stages in brass prep and loading. I know everyone has their own way of doing things and a sequence that they swear by. I'm curious to see which stages you guys rank as most important/beneficial for your maximum accuracy loads.

For example, something like:
1# Neck turning
2# Primer pocket uniforming
3# Perfect trim length
4# Exact powder measuring
etc...
 
#3
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

I read the results of an extensive test by BR shooters, what I remember they said was the #1 issue for grouping was primer consistency, from other sources significant wild grouping problems are caused by flaws at the base of the bullet
 
#4
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

What a loaded (pun intended) question. But I'll give it a try.

1) Consistency in your reloading technique

2) Consistency in your shooting technique/positions

3) Good equipment (not necessarily the fastest or most expensive)

4) Managing your expectations (meaning balancing, load, bullet, and rifle to maximize it's and your potential). The last 100 FPS is less important than that last .25 of MOA.

5) Patience, to work up carefully to develop YOUR load. Shortcuts don't work, pet loads are non existent, and your rifle, barrel, chamber, are unlike any other. Find out yourself what your rifle likes, and then feed it.

6) Understand what your loading for: a hunting load is different from tactical rifle load, and a benchrest load is different from them both. Adopting a benchrest style loading techniques to develop loads a lightweight hunting rifle is a waste of time, energy and resources.

7) Up grade equipment only when you've out grown the old. And just about any good single stage press, can make a accurate reloaded round.

8) Speed kills: Your barrel, your loads, and if your not attentive, you.... Always take baby steps, and change only one thing at a time, and always work up from below.





 
#5
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

I did a pretty extensive test a few years back on phases of reloading and what paid the most gains.

IMHO, YRMV etc

Primer pocket truing, flash hole chamfering (outside) and flash hole chamfer/deburr netted me the most significant gains in sub MOA ammo. IIRC it was on the order of a 30% improvement.

I found neck turning and bushing dies yielded measurable but (to me, as in not worth the time) insignificant improvements.

Repeatable, minimal FL resizing kept things very consistent while neck size and shoulder bump produced decreasing velocities that could almost be predicted until you had to run it through a FL or body die then you had no idea where you were.

My .02 TIFWIW.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#7
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Pull flash-hole deburring tool out of case and insert it into primer pocket and twist again? I have the sinclar genII flash hole deburring tool which indexes off of the case web rather than the mouth, so it can't really "drill" into the hole like the RCBS one can if the stop isn't set. Is it safe to use this on the outside as well as the inside? The web isn't one of those things I want to remove too much from without knowing exactly how much you can remove.
 
#8
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

i think having an excellent rifle and scope will probably help more then anything.

jack neary said he doesnt flashhole deburr on his lapua cases , he said something like it makes accuracy worse? somewhere on his youtube videos , number 4 i think.

if you dont have a tight neck chamber i dont think you should neck turn your cases , but i dont know.

i think bullet sorting/uniforming helps.
 
#9
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

He probably doesn't deburr/uniform because Lapua brass flasholes are drilled and not punched like the cheaper brands. The winchester brass I use is notorious for having "hanging chads" from where they punch the flash holes. By deburring, it's not so much chamfering as it is knocking off those little hanging brass circles.
 
#10
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Well I searched Doc's sticky and found out his tests show a 30% reduction in spreads from deburring both sides of the flash hole.
 
#11
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Thing that yielded quick and noticeable results for me was replacing the wire retainer spring on the shellholder/ram with a rubber o-ring. The next, easy and productive step was using a plastic gasket under the lock ring on the resizing die, and making sure the die was in straight. These two stops helped reduce runout on the sized brass to 0.001" +/-, which definitely helped on paper.

Neck turning and brass sorting by weight were lots of time for minimal, if any, noticeable improvement in my limited testing with them.

Beyond that, BobinNC offered some very good all around advice.
 
#12
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doc, Sir, could you please elaborate more on outside flash hole chamfering. </div></div>

About half way down on pg 2

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96660&page=2

Is a pic of the Lyman that I used to do the outside of the flash hole for large primers. I have found that it will not work on small pockets. That being said Sinclair's offers a FH reamer for small cases that has a stop collar. Just flip the stop collar over so you have the big flat part against the case head and set the depth where you want it.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35391/Product/17_20_Caliber_Piloted_Flashhole_Deburring_Tool

Cheers,

Doc
 
#13
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Thanks Doc, the described method looks very similar to what I use. I chamfer the outside of the flash hole after I cut the primer pocket to depth using the Sinclair tool.

I have a locking collar on the center drill that limits my depth of cut and have it adjusted so that I get about a 1/32" chamfer on the top edge of the hole. Does that sound about right to you?
 
#14
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

I not using Lapua brass, I will always deburr the flash hole and uniform primer pockets. Once uniformed they should be cleaned between each reloading.
Neck turning is IMHO not necessary with Lapua in standard neck chambers. I don't see it being an accuracy killer even with other brands of brass. Powder charge consistency becomes much more important as distance of the shot increases.
"Perfect" trim length? Do you mean every case trimmed to the exact recommended length? If so, no. But trimming to a uniform length is necessary. But certainly not after each and every firing.
 
#15
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Personally rather than try to figure out what added now much I just do it all except neck turning.

-new or new to me brass I FL resize / decap.

-If it's from my rifle about every 3rd firing I run it through my Forster shoulder bump w/o the bushing in it and bump the shoulder back .003 and decap it.

-New brass, measure the brass, toss out everything under 2.002 (I haven't used Lapua yet, but you'd be surprised how many Winchesters or Lake City you find at 1.998. Old brass I'll watch the batch and trim the batch when I get cases that get longer than 2.015.

-trim to 2.005 and chamfer

-Uniform the pockets flash hole on new to me brass.

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Run through a Lee Collet sizer.</span> <span style="font-style: italic">This made the biggest difference in my consistency at 1000 yds. It gives me uniform neck tension w/o turning necks. Before I did this I was getting unexplained 7s and 8s up and down at 1000 yds. You won't really see it at 100 to 200, but at 1000 inconsistent neck tension tells on you.</span>

-I use a Chargemaster 1500 for powder, I'm not getting into a triple beam and less than .05 gr variations, that's the point of the ladder or OCW in development.

-I point the meplats of my hollow point bullets with a Widden die. I'm not sure how much it buys me, but with a 308 I'll take every inch I can get at 1000 yds.
 
#17
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

One thing not mentioned is keeping a good set of notes.

For me: the biggest improvements were case preperation, and meticulous assembly. (mMticulous assembly means measure everything, sometimes more than once, and keep your wits about you for the whole durration.)

However durring load development, it is useful to measure charge weights as accurately as possible and keep accurate notes so the end result is not just a charge-weight that is optimal, but also the width of the charge-weight varriance that shoots well. If this window is wide enough, you have found a throw and go load.

I have been able to develop a load for my gun that shoots one 0.35" 5-shot group, two 0.45-0.50 groups and one 0.60 group from a box of 20 rounds. I have done no weighting of cases, bullets; no neck trim; no meplat modifications.....
 
#18
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Really excellent stuff in here guys. I'll definitely be giving more attention to the primer pocket and flash hole prep.

On a side note, I was pretty ecstatic this morning when I out-shot my previous best group of .75" by .3" with my first ever round of handloads. I honestly wouldn't know what to do if I got even better results from my 700p, but that wont stop me from sinking further hours into brass prep.
 
#19
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

The three steps I wouldn't ever forego for any reason.....

1.) Keeping brass clean, not for pretty, but to preserve the integrity of my dies and chambers.

2.) Keeping my brass properly annealed has paid me a lot of dividend.

3.) Understanding what creates runout and keeping that to an absolute minimum.

A lot of the rest is just noise..........
 
#20
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

DPRoberts: Don't be surprised if your 700p chamber is fairly sloppy too once you get into the bulk of this. I found the chamber length on mine to be at 2.055" versus the common recommended trim length of 2.005". I also found that fireforming my cases causes the shoulder to move up about to about 1.566" compared to the usual new winchester brass which is around 1.554 or so. I won't even get into the lands - if it's like mine, you won't be able to reach them and still maintain any neck tension on the bullet.
 
#21
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing not mentioned is keeping a good set of notes.
</div></div>

YES! But for me there are slightly different reasons that those listed above.

I reload for two 308's, but even if you load for only one, once you get a few hundred brass and 2 or 3 bullets you are trying to load for you are going to walk back to the bench one evening and there will be 20 cases sitting there. Hmmm.. are these sized? How many times have they been fired? What was I planning to do with them? or What are these cases? they're primed, why didn't I load them.

Or they day you discover that if you ram a neck sized once fired case from one rifle into another with a tighter chamber you need a small hammer to get it out. Don't do it twice.
 
#22
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

XTR: Were you somehow able to watch me just a little while ago at my own bench when you made that post? hah.

I found those little yellow bins that Stanley makes (they sell them at Home Depot) to really help with organizing. They're ridiculously cheap - $7-8 bucks for a set of 8 of them. I just wrote on them with sharpies to help keep track. For my bulk stuff (9mm, .223) I use the gallon ziplocs with a sharpie "needs "resized", "resized-need trimmed, etc" and "ready to load"

The biggest help is a random small box I had (probably from Brownells) that says "Junk cases" that holds random casings from all calibers that either have bad dents, loose primer pockets, etc. that I'll use to fine tune my trimmer when changing calibers, chamfer/deburr depths, etc."

Also - if you have access to a chronograph and really want a good, pre-formatted load sheet for anything you develop, check out JBM: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi You can enter all the data you can into this and hit calculate and it formats it into a nice, printable sheet you can keep in a folder/data book/binder, etc. to reference your various loads. Obviously the more you can verify the calculated drops vs. what your bullet is actually doing the better you'll be and there's plenty of whitespace on the page for personal notes. Pretty handy and it's free.
 
#24
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

You can skip the first 2 (maybe even 3) if you go with lapua brass.

It's not about exact measuring, but consistent.

I would also add runout (concentricity) when you seat a bullet as one of the things that would improve grouping.
 
#25
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALLOUTIND</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do most double check there powder measurement? </div></div>

I do. I'll lift it, shuffle the powder, and reweigh it
 
#26
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

sounds good ill try it... thanks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALLOUTIND</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do most double check there powder measurement? </div></div>

I do. I'll lift it, shuffle the powder, and reweigh it </div></div>
 
#27
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Safety and consistency are key.

THere are books written on this subject, so I find it very hard to rank an order of best technique to worst.

Consistency is a massive subject and covers, but is not limited to, brass, powder, primer, projectile, muzzle velocity and technique.

Everything needs to be consistent, even the shooting technique. Once the shooter gains consistency with his shooting ability, then the ammo can be accurately criticised. Until that point, innacuracy could be not but speculation.
 
#28
Re: Ranking reloading steps by accuracy gain

Here is my take on things:

I primarily started loading to be more competitive in competition.
This of course leads to OCD run away reloader syndrome.

Here is my loading regiment:
Hand Loading Steps
- Brass Prep
1. Decap Brass & Tumble
1a. Uniform Primer Pockets (If new)
2. Anneal Case Neck
3. Resize Case / Shoulder Bump (Remember Lube!)
4. Spin & Trim Brass
- Trim Brass
- Debur Flash Hole
- Use VLD Chamfer Tool on Inside of Case Neck
- Debur Outside of Case Neck
- User Bronze Neck Brush to polish inside of neck
- Wipe off excess wax
- Re-Size Neck
- Inspect Brass
5. Prime & Seal Brass and store in a controlled environment
- Loading
1. Charge Cases with Powder (QA Check every 10th cartridge)
2. Place Bullet on Case Mouth and run up into Seating Die
3. Check Seating Depth & Datum Length with Comparator & Final QA Check

Here is how I would rank the effectiveness of certain loading practices:
#1 Primer Pocket Uniforming & Flash Hole De-buring
Tough to argue with the 30% improvement numbers that Doc compiled.

#2 Neck consistency & run out.
My method to do this effectively without having to go through the pains of neck turning and using one of those Hornady truing fixtures is to run the brass through the sizing bushing a second time to ensure that the neck was not deformed during the case prep process.
I am also a big advocate of the Redding carbide expander ball.
It removes any imperfections on the inside of the neck and also helps uniform the neck thickness.
Proper die setup and upgrading my press with the Hornady LnL bushing conversion kit aids this process as well.
The way they work, it is as if the die is floating.

#3 Bullet sorting
Accuracy is all about repeatability and if the O-Give or weight of the bullet is not consistent accuracy will not be consistent either.
Along with a quality scale, a Redding instant indicator is an excellent tool that will aid in this process.

#4 Accuracy of the powder charge
As previously stated, if you have done proper load development, small changes to charge weight should have minimal impact on POI.
I do use a charge master for my loads, just because it is one factor that I have control over and it will make a diference to me.
(Even if it is just in my head.)
wink.gif


#5 Perfect Trim Length
The trim length is more of a safety issue than an accuracy concern.
Excessive neck length can lead to overpressure from the neck pinching the bullet when it is chambered.
 
#33
1- Knowing how to do, and doing a correct load work up. This includes being able to call your shots well enough to make the test valid.

2- consistency and using quality components.

Its really that easy. At least it is for .5 all day and .3 on good days ammo which I am 100% happy with. I’ll let the bench rest crowd weigh primers and sort bullets!

I’d be willing to wager if 80% of guys who toil over .01 grains of powder and spend hours massaging brass would take that time and use it to work on fundamentals and dry firing their ammo would magically get better.
 
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#34
Precision Underground said:
1- Knowing how to do, and doing a correct load work up. This includes being able to call your shots well enough to make the test valid.

2- consistency and using quality components.

Its really that easy. At least it is for .5 all day and .3 on good days ammo which I am 100% happy with. I’ll let the bench rest crowd weigh primers and sort bullets!

I’d be willing to wager if 80% of guys who toil over .01 grains of powder and spend hours massaging brass would take that time and use it to work on fundamentals and dry firing their ammo would magically get better.
Click to expand...
4FCBF0C6-3C6E-4B55-8F1F-B4F12961260C.gif
 
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