Reaction to a firefight

[Forgetful Coyote]

Let me start by saying that someone with actual experience in a firefight(the shooting kind) is rare, and someone that will talk about it is even more rare.

So knowing that its highly unlikely anyone with actual experience will reply, may I ask what it was like?

Yeah that sounded super corny, what I mean is, what was your physical reaction? Obviously its gonna be different in a long range situation where you got the drop on somebody, but under the circumstances of the enemy actually shooting back at you and knows your location, is it difficult to keep steady? Or are you more focused on the situation and the nervous hit comes later?

Ive had some pretty hairy encounters/escapes with police in my younger partying days, and its difficult to remember the actual in-the-moment feeling, but afterward I was rattling like a Eastern Diamondback`s tail. Same for when I got into fights, my coordination would drop a good bit and hands/knees were jackhammering pretty good. Strange because I wrestled all through HS and dont remember any shaking during big matches, the adrenaline was definitely still there though.

So in the moment of the actual firefight, are your hands/knees shaking? Or does that usually only come afterward? Obviously training increases your chances of success immensely, but as far as the shaking, does/did that happen to you? Were you shaking as much as I feel like I would in that situation? How do you deal with it?


Thanks.

 

[Veer_G]

I, for one, don't think that we have the right to ask them, but, rather, only to thank them for enduring the nightmares that we will never know.

“As a civilian, I know nothing about combat, the Marine Corps experience or modern man's struggle adjusting to peace
after war. I only know what's been shared with me: confidences I would never betray, nor use as details in a novel.”

― Tiffany Madison

 

[303_enfield]

Rare? We've had a shooting war going on for over 12 years. Everybody is different while shooting or being shot at. During your doing what needs to be done to live and save your buddies. After is the BITCH ringing of the ears, shakes or throwing up it happens. Or better yet having to relive it 100's of times, writing reports, head shrink, JAG/DA's and more.

Want to find out? Three options:

1)MIL, might never see combat (pray for peace).
2)LEO, might never have to draw your weapon (pray for it).
3)Crook, save time and suck start your weapon.

 

[diverdon]

Real Gunfighter Lance Thomas on Justic Files - YouTube

 

[bm11]

Certainly my situation is a lot different than those in harms way with people INTENDING to shoot at them, but I can say when I was at the 200 yard berm at my range and some retard opened fire, and I saw sand getting kicked up at the hundred yard berm in between us, and realized it would only take a 6" miss for this jackass to hit me (his groups were larger than that,) my reaction was anger, and regret, for not having my rifle with me to shoot back with. A bit of adrenaline too.

 

[Graham]

A wise man once told me that the only truthful answer to a complicated question is: It depends.

 

[17874]

Reaction to a firefight

In my deadly force encounters, I just reacted to my training. Performed as I hoped I would. Shaking did happen afterward, but at least I was still standing. I think you never know how you will react until it happens. I have seen others react poorly. I think your mental state has a lot to do with it. I am pleasant and professional to everyone, but I am also planning on how to kill them if need be.

My dad, a Vietnam Combat vet spoke of the same reaction.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I may have worded that wrongly. When I say, how did you deal with it, I dont mean the psychological effects afterward. Id like to avoid bringing up the subject of psychology in this matter because I know how controversial it is and not very many people are going to reply at all if its about PTSD. Everybody deals with it differently and I dont have a Psychology degree.

What I meant was how do you keep your d@mn hands from shaking?!! Lol, obviously since Im not in an occupation that involves this it most likely wont happen, but if I do get into this type of situation, I want to be able to atleast control response and have the ability to hold the weapon steady enough to accurately fire. If I ever did get into a shootout, I suspect that I would have a lot of trouble keeping the sights on target.

So, whats the best way to prepare for this? And are there any good activities/exercises in general that will get one accustomed to that adrenaline hit and controlling your arms/hands/marksmanship when the hit comes(safely)? Id like to avoid anything that ends with me possibly dead or in jail, if that doesnt go without saying.
Would doing some sprints/running or other cardio right before shooting help to simulate it? Or are there better ways?

Thanks.

 

[MCSO1357]

No comment as to the actual fights (yes, plural...) Good books to read on subject as to the psychological side of things are "On Killing" and "On Combat" by Col. Dave Grossman.

 

[diverdon]

Many on the hide do not seem to like him, but I found Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" useful [ Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme ] as a starting point to consider these things.

 

[303_enfield]

Training is how you keep the sights on the target. Sometimes that causes tunnel vision which leads to other problems. Everyone is different. Every time is different. You could be in 100 fire fights and never have one problem. You could kill a dog with your car an be a total wreck. Stop looking for answers that won't pertain to you.

Get some training and then some more. Pay to have trainer shoot sims at you. Then train some more.

 

[Victory]

It is the ultimate focus and high if rounds are whizzing over head and you are relatively safe. Once the guy next to you gets shot, you take a round, or you are pinned down down, can't return fire or maneuver, it is the most terrifying and foggiest moment of your life.

Time means nothing, literally you could be in a crazy fight for an hour and it feel like only 10 minutes have gone by.

Exfiling with a huge pack on in the mountains is dangerous due to your legs still shaking from all the adrenaline and lactic acid from sprinting around with all your shit on.

Cigarrettes are the most amazing thing you have ever experienced after a good TIC.

The first seconds or two of a well placed ambush really is sensory overload. It takes a second or two to really comprehend what is going on and how to react. Naturally you are moving, ducking, and bringing your weapon up to return fire. To really comprehend the direction and distance it is coming from and to make meaningful action or give direction to others, it takes a sec.

No matter how dire the situation, if you have a team of guys you trust and have trained well, you will always have the upper hand of confidence which mitigates a lot of the negative thoughts that can filter in during the more hairy situations.

You will be thirsty like you have never been before in your life.

In the slow TICs, with rounds whizzing over head, I can remember scanning slowly, breathing slowly, and squeezing my trigger. In the ambushes with all hell coming in, RPGs, Dishkas, PKMs, and whatever else was shooting at us, I have no clue if my shooting training was being utilized for not. I probably was jerking the shit out of my trigger while trying to gain fire superiority.

These are just a couple of my thoughts thinking back, I can't say if my experiences are similar to others. I saw some guys unwilling to even look up over rock walls to return fire and others run through fire to get their buddies more ammo. Not sure what the difference was in their minds, but there were obviously different thoughts going on in each of their heads.

As for people willing to talk about it, well that just depends on the person. I find it helpful for me to talk about it instead of holding all of those experiences inside to bubble up. My view has been the more open about the things I've experienced, the easier it is for me to move on and continue with my life. YMMV

 

[nso123]

Bottom line, as many others have said, is that everyone reacts a little different. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the encounter, you may be reacting or you may be initiating. From my experience (LEO), everything was reactive. A friend was recently ambushed by a guy that he and a fellow officer were trying to arrest on a warrant. The guy whipped out a converted Uzi and started firing away. My friends vehicle was hit 30 times and all he could do was try and get the bad guy's head down until an opportunity arose for him to stop the fight. Luckily, he did not get hit. What illustrates the point of everyone reacting differently is the reaction of his fellow officer on the scene. The fellow officer hunkered down and hid, even though he had a tactically superior position. I won't armchair quarterback him for what he did because everyone does react differently. Is he fit for duty, probably not, but of the many officers that I have worked with and known I don't think he is the only one that would have locked up.

I firmly believe that proper training helps tremendously in a bad situation. It often makes a difference in who survives. With that said, all the training in the world does not predict how someone will react in a given situation.

 

[Delta4-3]

Some of the things that still take up about 85% of my thoughts to this day....
1. When I got hit, the feeling was a total surprise, and still is. You would think it would hurt, throb, send lightning through your body. That's not what I felt. It freaking itched. I can't tell you how bad it itched. Then, I'm sitting there running the scenario through my mind, and for the life of me could not pull my thoughts away from how bad it itched. I know, it's weird. And from talking with a good many of my brothers that were also wounded in Sadr City, not a huge percentage felt "the itch".

2. Heightened sense of feeling/awareness. This is just insane. I don't think I can really describe it, but I seriously felt like I could feel each and every stitch in my clothing. I felt like I was breathing in individual particles of air instead of just breathing, and so on and so forth.

3. Guilt and Rage. Why is it always the very best, funniest guy that gets called home? It's never that turd sandwich no one likes.

4.It really tells you quickly what you didn't put enough effort into training on. Thought you could do a lightning quick mag change in the dark under NODs? Yeah, might want to work on that. Thought you were proficient at stopping arterial bleeding from an armpit? Yeah, you took about 30 seconds longer than it should have and now look what happened.

5. Wishing you would have made different decisions in certain instances. Ill leave that one at that.

There is far more to it than this server can hold, and Im sure like everything else in life, it is dramatically different for everyone.
That said, I have uncontrolled rage over all the current vets coming home with "PTSD" and you can tell in the first 3 seconds they have never been on either end of the life taking process, but stayed on FOB's the whole deployment. My generation has more attention whores than any other.

 

[Guest]

I have been in the middle of 5 of them with the farthest being 75-100 yards away and the closest being 12 feet. It was gangs shooting at each other with us in the middle. None shot directly at us. They light up so fast and you are never really prepared. They are loud and startling.
Then we just run for cover and wait it out and try to keep track of the shooters and the drift of the action. They don't seem to last long 1-3 minutes but it is an intense time.
Down in the slum they are frequent- 4 times per week within a 1/4 mile radius.

I don't carry a weapon down there so I can not tell you what it is like in a fire fight.

 

[woojos]

I've never been in a gunfight, but when I was in undergraduate I had two guys break in with crowbars when I was home alone on Thanksgiving. I lived on the outskirts of the Columbus, OH ghetto about 4 blocks from OSU.

I heard a noise thinking it was one my roomates coming home, walked down the stairs, turned into the dining room and was greeted by some shots to the head and face with a crowbar. I managed to fight away, run to the front door which locked with a guy right on my heels, and that's when the panic hit. I knew there was no time to escape out the front and I had to turn around and fight through them out the back.

I pissed myself a little, but not enough for anybody to notice. I played Rugby, had been a couple fights, but up until that point had never experienced the 'fight or flight'. That is the first and only time in my life I have experienced it.

I fought with him so more, enough to get away, the jump off the couch, run matrix style across the wall over his buddies head, through the hallway, dining room, then out the open back door, where I vaulted off the deck 100 yards into the street in about .0001 seconds. That's what it felt like and what I remember it as.

I felt physically fine through it. About 25 minutes later, I felt the blood dripping down my face and the ache in my head and on my arms. I ended up with stitches on my head, face, and arms, with some big bumps in the same places, a concussion, but no broken bones.

IMO, there's really no way you can train for a situation like that. If you can inoculate yourself a bit, like if you're in the military and entering a hostile area, and can raise your awareness knowing that things can go bad at anytime, you might be better off.

If you are ambushed and completely unprepared, it's pretty much down to muscle memory/instinct, at least that's been my limited experience.

 

[Graham]

We keep expanding the definition of 'firefight', now to mean getting shot at rather than being the target of effective fire. If hearing stray rounds go by plus unloading a vehicle mounted gun at a hillside is to considered a 'firefight', then I suspect many a reaction was to inquire of the driver what just happened. But that's not a near-death experience.

All near-death experiences are not the same. Most of the time it's either over before one realizes that the event took place (the classic PTSD 'trigger'), or one is too busy at the time working the problem to do anything else. Either way, there's definitely a delayed psychological/emotional reaction. Some people have it very soon afterward; in other people it takes longer to manifest. Which probably explains why, with PTSD, some people develop it quickly and others don't get it until months afterward.

After a few times suddenly and unexpectedly being thrust to the precipice of death, then reverting to a mundane existence, one begins to realize what is really happening: At its core, what you are doing is forcing your mind to retroactively contemplate what would have happened had you ceased to exist. The psychological burden, one hardest to accept for control freaks, is in knowing that we really don't have control of anything - that chaos and randomness rule everything.

That realization is the window to the rabbit hole: Some accept it and move on, grateful to have survived; others refuse to accept the cognitive dissonance of the world as it really is rather than the world as it should be. Some find their answers in religion. Others adopt a fatalistic attitude toward the future. A few even decide to reveal the final experience, and exit the predicament. Either way, it appears to hit hardest the people who have imagination. A lack of imagination is a leg-up on the focus necessary to ensure survival, both at the time and after the event.

Here's the analogy I use: Each person has inside them their own box of matches. They start with a full box, and every time they take a serious risk and a mind-altering experience results, they burn a match. Different people have different size boxes, with more or fewer matches inside. Eventually, after enough scary shit, you burn your last match and the box is empty. When that happens there's nothing to be done but to get out. That said, about 1% of us are hardwired differently than the rest and seriously scary shit is either a necessity to wake them up in the first place, or it doesn't bother them at all, or both. Most of us probably know someone like that.

I think for the majority of people the key to surviving the mental game is to build a bridge back from the craziness to normality again. That's one reason why we rotate troops in the field and we don't immerse them in an environment where civilized rules don't apply. Of course, that's easier to do the more mature you are to begin with.

Perhaps this bridge starts with being grateful for things you were given that you never earned in the first place - like the rest of your life back. That gratefulness is probably the root cause of the profound happiness we see in people who have suffered greatly and survived horrible things.

 

[Delta4-3]

We keep expanding the definition of 'firefight', now to mean getting shot at rather than being the target of effective fire. If hearing stray rounds go by plus unloading a vehicle mounted gun at a hillside is to considered a 'firefight', then I suspect many a reaction was to inquire of the driver what just happened. But that's not a near-death experience.

All near-death experiences are not the same. Most of the time it's either over before one realizes that the event took place (the classic PTSD 'trigger'), or one is too busy at the time working the problem to do anything else. Either way, there's definitely a delayed psychological/emotional reaction. Some people have it very soon afterward; in other people it takes longer to manifest. Which probably explains why, with PTSD, some people develop it quickly and others don't get it until months afterward.

After a few times suddenly and unexpectedly being thrust to the precipice of death, then reverting to a mundane existence, one begins to realize what is really happening: At its core, what you are doing is forcing your mind to retroactively contemplate what would have happened had you ceased to exist. The psychological burden, one hardest to accept for control freaks, is in knowing that we really don't have control of anything - that chaos and randomness rule everything.

That realization is the window to the rabbit hole: Some accept it and move on, grateful to have survived; others refuse to accept the cognitive dissonance of the world as it really is rather than the world as it should be. Some find their answers in religion. Others adopt a fatalistic attitude toward the future. A few even decide to reveal the final experience, and exit the predicament. Either way, it appears to hit hardest the people who have imagination. A lack of imagination is a leg-up on the focus necessary to ensure survival, both at the time and after the event.

Here's the analogy I use: Each person has inside them their own box of matches. They start with a full box, and every time they take a serious risk and a mind-altering experience results, they burn a match. Different people have different size boxes, with more or fewer matches inside. Eventually, after enough scary shit, you burn your last match and the box is empty. When that happens there's nothing to be done but to get out. That said, about 1% of us are hardwired differently than the rest and seriously scary shit is either a necessity to wake them up in the first place, or it doesn't bother them at all, or both. Most of us probably know someone like that.

I think for the majority of people the key to surviving the mental game is to build a bridge back from the craziness to normality again. That's one reason why we rotate troops in the field and we don't immerse them in an environment where civilized rules don't apply. Of course, that's easier to do the more mature you are to begin with.

Perhaps this bridge starts with being grateful for things you were given that you never earned in the first place - like the rest of your life back. That gratefulness is probably the root cause of the profound happiness we see in people who have suffered greatly and survived horrible things.

It is far too easy to hate the world and hate life after such events. I'm thankful to have found a way to pull through. My partner, and best friend was in every firefight I was ever in. He was a first class soldier and a first class man. He tried heroin one single time in an attempt to escape it all. It killed him. I feel more pain over that one death than any I have ever experienced. How many times did I ask him how he was doing? Zero. What an ass.

The darkest days of my life were the entire two years of my life when I returned home from the Sadr City deployment. I met my 7 month old daughter for the first time, said good bye to the best 9 men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing, and don't honestly remember the birth of second daughter, or subsequent months due to the coping method I chose. I was physically and mentally broken and took the wrong fork in the road. I thank God every day for letting me go back and take the other path.

Long story short, call your fucking friends. If something seems off, get in the truck and go see them for as long as needed. You might save their life, and yours.

I'm not sure why I quoted your post Graham, as none of this was that relevant, but I like what you said nonetheless.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Sh*t coming out of Left Field, Close; no time for anything but taking a knee and a mag dump, more if you survived the first. Knees, etc., never noticed; had more pressing demands on the attention.

After; adrenaline jitters so bad you couldn't light your smoke, dry heaves and mental apathy, but only after 'Secure!'.

Damn, I thought I had safely forgotten all that crap from 40+ years back...; you're very not welcome.

By the time I heard of PTSD and recognized that I very likely had it, my VA Shrink told me I had already come to functioning (as opposed to successful) terms with it. Looking back now, the 'bridge back to sanity' line makes precise sense. My bridge consisted of a good Wife, and some good friends at the Marine Corps League.

As certain as I am that it never completely goes away; I am also confident that the treatment the VA provides me has taken my PTSD off all the burners and relegated it to a freezer bag. They really DO know what they're doing at the VA. Yet, it's only lately that my triggers have grown trigger guards.

Greg

 

[bogeybrown]

I never had the shakes or other stuff DURING a TIC, nor did I get the tunnel vision during a face-to-face "shootout". Things sped up for me and rather than the slow-motion phenomena I've heard described things were moving faster than normal. I got the shakes if I knew ahead of time that bad shit was going to happen because I guess I was making adrenaline my body didn't need yet. When the shit just hit the fan out of nowhere I guess I was "consuming" the adrenaline as fast as I was making it.

Afterwards (if we didn't have casualties) I'd smoke a shit-ton of cigarettes and we'd laugh like little kids and try to piece together who had done what, "who the hell were YOU shooting at?" and blow off some steam.

If we had casualties then there was none of that shit and most of us would get quiet and FUCKING ANGRY. A lot of really expensive stuff got kicked, punched, thrown, stomped on, whatever.

I came home to nothing to ground me: no wife, girlfriend, kids, nothing but a bartender. I finally asked my ex-wife for one of our dogs to stay with me at the house so I had someone to talk to. That helped a lot.

What I didn't want to hear, and still refuse to listen to, was people (who weren't there) trying to make sense of who lived and died by telling me that "there was a plan" and "everything happens for a reason". I will still fly off into a rage if someone starts that around me.

I held off on commenting on this thread to see which way it went, but I have mad fucking respect for a number of the gents here, and I too have found it helps to vent a bit to people who understand ( and to a dog ). The greatest feeling in the world was talking to a buddy of mine that I always viewed as invincible and realizing that he had some issues also. The old cliché about "not being alone" is a cliché for a reason.

 

[Graham]

The 'shakes ahead of time' thing is well known to skydivers, who will tell you that the anticipation of the jump backs up further in time the more experienced you are.

 

[usmc02xx]

recently my wife told me i had a form of ptsd. i told her she was full o s hit and to fuck off. (nicely). I don't have any lingering reaction type things, booms dont freak me out or shit like that. but damn if i can stand to be anywhere where my situational awareness gets stressed. too many people and i get anxious and short of breath. Kinda sux when you want to do do stuff with your kids but your more worried that you cant see everyone in the room then about how much fun your 10 year old is having. Fuck it. the price of thinking you were brave and RIGHT when youre young eh? And isnt that the real bitch about it. When i was a 24 year old sergeant i lived in a world of thinking that of course what i saw/ did was the right thing. No greys. No i wonder all the time what I'll tell my grandchildren and what god (if there is such a thing)will think of my actions and my beliefs at the time. Didnt mean to write all that, but im sure you understand.

 

[EventHorizon]

recently my wife told me i had a form of ptsd. i told her she was full o s hit and to fuck off. (nicely). I don't have any lingering reaction type things, booms dont freak me out or shit like that. but damn if i can stand to be anywhere where my situational awareness gets stressed. too many people and i get anxious and short of breath. Kinda sux when you want to do do stuff with your kids but your more worried that you cant see everyone in the room then about how much fun your 10 year old is having. Fuck it. the price of thinking you were brave and RIGHT when youre young eh? And isnt that the real bitch about it. When i was a 24 year old sergeant i lived in a world of thinking that of course what i saw/ did was the right thing. No greys. No i wonder all the time what I'll tell my grandchildren and what god (if there is such a thing)will think of my actions and my beliefs at the time. Didnt mean to write all that, but im sure you understand.

As a dad myself, I look back at the convictions and actions I took as a younger man and I shake my head at some of them too. Can't change the past but you can influence the future. I've kept a journal of "things I really have to teach the boys" so they don't make my mistakes. Thanks for your service and all the best for your family.

 

[graewolf]

I firmly believe that proper training helps tremendously in a bad situation. It often makes a difference in who survives. With that said, all the training in the world does not predict how someone will react in a given situation.

I have heard this many many times from friends/instructors/etc that have been in one or more varying degrees of firefights. Proper muscle memory and gross motor skills dramatically increase odds of survivability in an "encounter." But, any individuals reaction to a sudden, defensive, life threatening incident wont be apparent until it happens. I have never been in this situation myself, but I am glad you asked this....and even more thankful of the members who are willing to relate their own experiences of their own incidents - I contemplate my own personal reaction should I ever be thrust into a position of defending my own life or that of a loved one. Will I lock up? Will my training and practice overcome my fear and anxiety? I PRAY I never find any of that out....but it haunts me all the same....which is why I train/practice, and I feel I dont do it enough (which is MUCH more than the general populus, but WAY less than, lets say, an infantryman). Its really the only thing I know I can contribute ahead of time.....that and doing my best to maintain situational awareness.

Again, thank you to those that have shared....looking forward to hearing more.

 

[usmc02xx]

As a dad myself, I look back at the convictions and actions I took as a younger man and I shake my head at some of them too. Can't change the past but you can influence the future. I've kept a journal of "things I really have to teach the boys" so they don't make my mistakes. Thanks for your service and all the best for your family.

i do that too, my daughter who is 19 and in the army now, grew up with "Sgt Johnson". My son who is 10 grew up with "dad". 2 completely different people. And you can see the difference in the people they are. What i swore by to my daughter, i question with my son. Funny.

 

[Unknown]

I have never been in a gunfight...been in knife fights, had guns pulled on me, been shot at, but never been in a two way gun fight.

I have had friends who have, and they volunteered information because I never asked.

One was a water cooled machine gun operator during the human wave attacks in the Korean war. He said when the Koreans kept coming, he held the shovel handles on his gun, pushed down the trigger, kept shooting as long as there was ammo in the belt. The gun eventually needed to be reloaded, that was when he realized he had shit his pants, and he got down behind the gun again, and remembered not caring that he was sitting in his shit, crying like crazy, and shooting the gun for all he was worth. After it was all over, he realized that he had bent the trigger downwards because for some reason he thought pushing harder on it might do something helpful. He didn't care that he had shit himself, he was just glad to be alive.

Another friend was ambushed in Vietnam. He was telling me about it, and I asked if he remembered how many rounds he fired, or what he did. He said he remembered precisely what he did...he fired every round he could until someone grabbed him by the collar and told him "Come on, we are leaving!"

 

[Victory]

Chosin

Listening to the older generations blows my mind sometimes. I can only hope that I would be able to endure and function as many of them did during those battles. I can't get though "Chosin" with out shedding a tear, hard men they for sure.

 

[sulcop96]

Wanting to hurl my breakfast all over my boots because I knew at that moment every aspect of my situation would be reviewed, critiqued, second guessed and the media would be at my door before the I.A. investigation even started. Then walking on egg shells for the next 60 days as I waited to be cleared form an incident that was so cut and dry even the staunchest liberal in my home state would have credited me with acting properly. Then the apprehension of going back on the streets knowing that if I have a similar incident with the same outcome I get to go through it all again.

That's more or less what I felt.

Sully

 

[G22inSC]

In my opinion, you are asking a question that can't be generally answered. Everyone and every situation is different. I've never been in a two-way gunfight, but am involved in sometimes "hairy" and life-threatening LE duties. People always want to talk about training and I will agree that training is great; however, that is not the be all end all. Mindset is just as important (if not more so) than training. I have seen numerous incidents that could have turned deadly because "some officer" just shut down and froze. David Grossman's book was mentioned earlier. If you ever have the opportunity to hear him speak I would urge you to do so. If you don't have the mindset and reaction to run to the threat, then you don't need to carry a firearm professionally. When the **** hits the fan, some people's first instinct is to turn and run away while other's is go to the fight. It's not a conscious thought, but a natural reaction that is then backed up with training.

You can have tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc. during the fight. When everything cools down is when you have the reactions you are speaking of. Shakes, dry mouth, dizziness, adrenaline dump, etc. The reactions that anyone could have are too numerous to list. I never really believed the auditory exclusion until I personally experienced it on a call once. It's for real.

PTSD...don't ever think it's a joke. I once responded to a call, first on scene, dealt with a child death and long story short I had given the family (mom, mom's boyfriend, and both kids) a ride home a couple weeks earlier and then went back to the house on a well fare check and found the three year old dead after being beaten to death by mom's boyfriend. I didn't catch any signs of abuse, that after the autopsy, was determined had been going on for a long time. I didn't sleep for a few days. A week or so later I was sleeping ok so I don't think it was a true, on-going PTSD issue.

I have never been in combat and have the utmost respect for our veterans and their families. I would never ask a veteran to talk about their experience. Just sit back and listen. If they want to talk to you about it they will, but don't push.

Like others have said, if you really want to know first hand then you either need to sign up with a recruiter or put on a badge and then pray you make it to retirement safe and not financially tapped from some dirtbag(s) suing you

 

[Mark williams]

All I can add is to you guys who have served, thank you! You guys are the ones worthy of the word HERO!

 

[UNREAL HENRY]

Certainly my situation is a lot different than those in harms way with people INTENDING to shoot at them, but I can say when I was at the 200 yard berm at my range and some retard opened fire, and I saw sand getting kicked up at the hundred yard berm in between us, and realized it would only take a 6" miss for this jackass to hit me (his groups were larger than that,) my reaction was anger, and regret, for not having my rifle with me to shoot back with. A bit of adrenaline too.

I can relate to bm11. At point blank range a guy closed his shotgun while it was pointed at me and with his finger in the trigger guard (AT ME, not just my direction). I only looked over because I saw him closing the gun and by that time there was nothing I could do. I thought to myself "bang I'm fucked". I was surprised when it didn't go off. No shakes or anything like that. Immediately I just sighed thinking "I made it" and reflected on how fucked I nearly was.

Sorry if this is too far off the topic originally posted.

 

[Hendo84]

I lost count of how many "tic's" we got into in Afghanistan (OEF 6 & 7) they were always quite an adrenaline rush though, the first few were really nerve racking but muscle memory always took over. There's some sick, fucked up part of me that misses deployment.

 

[Victory]

We all do brother, I would head back tomorrow if I could.

 

[Name Enough]

Reading this I remember some and not all. I remember freezing the first time and my squad leader shouting shoot and move, I remember being calm and excited afterwards. Sees like the adrenaline kicked in afterwards. I remember cursing and cursing as if there was no other way to express what had happened. We were working off adrenaline by laughing or cussing or whatever. I don't remember shaking but I do remember the burn. When I got shot I didn't even know it until I saw the blood. I was very calm and held that wound shut with my dirty hand to stop the bleeding. We could compose entire sentences with ever other word being a cuss word. I fighting to be very calm attending to a wounded comrade so he would not go into shock. We weren't allowed to smoke in the field and that rule went out the window after a fire fight.
Forty five years ago we didn't have PTSD - it was frowned upon. It took me a year or two to realize that I suffered from my experiences. I took me a long time to get over it. My dad was in the fifth wave at D-Day and 30 years later when we were driving across the country he suddenly started crying. The smell of manure spread on the fields brought back memories. It was the first time he ever spoke of it, digging up a mass grave in Northern France where the Nazis had killed 30 civilians during their retreat.

Back in the day we had a draft military and I served 16 months overseas. Today our military service men go back again and again to complete several tours overseas in the combat zones.
The soldier the president honored at his state of the union address had served 10 tours in combat zones
Getting rid of the military draft which was very unpopular after Vietnam was a big mistake and a dis-service to our military. Back in the day everyone had a son or brother or cousin or friend in the military and if this was the case today we would be a lot more careful about whose fight we got involved in. Memories are short - there is a distaste for armed conflict right now but in 20 years we will be back at it if history is any guide to future events. Despite the draft I volunteered three weeks after TET. I am still proud of my RA service number.
When folks ask what I did in the service I tell them that I was a clerk in the motor pool everyone else was a Ranger in the Special Forces.
Recently when my wife popped the top on a can of biscuits, I froze. Someone in the back of my head shouted INCOMING. I bought another can of the biscuits just to hear that sound again. I like it and happiness is a warm gun.

 

[VJJPunisher]

I shit in my pants on every occasion. one time i froze up and couldnt make it up the stairs to get the 30 cal belts to the MG, then this ugly fucker came walking down the stairs and i squirt in my pants yet again

 

[Veer_G]

I shit in my pants on every occasion. one time i froze up and couldnt make it up the stairs to get the 30 cal belts to the MG, then this ugly fucker came walking down the stairs and i squirt in my pants yet again

Yes, but you still managed to pull the trigger once before the credits ran, didn't you?

That dirty rat ...

 

[Graham]

The problem with claiming BTDT status is that it's only relevant to one's credibility when it causes a type of learning not available to anyone else. Otherwise the only credential that BTDT provides is that one was a victim of circumstance.

 

[bogeybrown]

In my opinion, you are asking a question that can't be generally answered. Everyone and every situation is different. I've never been in a two-way gunfight, but am involved in sometimes "hairy" and life-threatening LE duties. People always want to talk about training and I will agree that training is great; however, that is not the be all end all. Mindset is just as important (if not more so) than training.........

I think I understand where you're coming from with "Mindset". The decision to be the predator rather than prey and desire to WIN and not just survive matters, but without the TRAINING then someone is just an enthusiastic amateur.

NO amount of mindset buys you those fractions of seconds that can determine an outcome, only proper training does that. Mental Training and running scenarios through your head ("If THIS happens, I should do THAT") can help by pre-bridging those neural pathways between stimulus and response, but training your body to do what it's supposed to do before your conscious mind has formed the thought is the product of countless PROPER repetitions and TRAINING.

In a split-second encounter it's almost purely conditioned response to stimulus, in more prolonged engagements you need your brain to be focusing on big-picture issues not wasting conscious thought on the fundamentals. I know there are plenty of guys in this discussion that have found the "moment of clarity" in the midst of the bad shit, where complex decisions become simple and you have an instant grasp of everything.


As I said, not really disagreeing with you, and Mindset matters a lot AFTER the fact by putting shit into its proper perspective, but it's not a substitute or alternative to training.

As with this entire topic, YMMV.

Edit: I've been mulling over my post for several hours and I wasn't happy with the way I responded. I agree with you about mindset. What I came to realize it that I have generally viewed mindset as a component of training. Now not all of it has been, the countless repetitions of something mundane for the sake of building muscle-memory weren't necessarily mindset related, but more complex scenarios were. I also wanted to add that I am CERTAINLY not speaking from some perceived position of special knowledge. As Graham very accurately pointed out, my experience/s were as much the result of circumstance as anything. I came out the other side with a better grasp of where I was properly prepared and where I wasn't and tried to approach the next situation with the past lessons learned.
Some of the gentlemen in this thread certainly DO have that "special knowledge", and I don't automatically count myself among them simply because I survived.

 

[T-Hoe]

To all of you who have served, you have my respect. And a heart felt THANK YOU for your service!