Realistic expectations?

[tinker]

I'm curious what people consider realistic expectations?

I am not a competition shooter, I started reloading about oh 8 or 9 years ago and then stopped (kids work etc) but a month ago started back up (my son tried a small nra silhouette match and we had fun so why not do some reloading).

I am doing a hodge podge kind of scrap parts rebuild refile for him to use in 6.5 CM and a .223 to practice (cheaper than always shooting 6.5).

The CM I guess it's shooting a decent group now so for now will stick with the load I worked up for it, but i am still working on one for the 223. The 223 shoots great with 77gr Fiocchi or fed GM. But it HATES anything 55gr.

I am getting 1/4 moa out of the CM but I have trouble staying steady so I feel like the gun could do better.

But that is why I wonder if I just have unrealistic expectations? Be it me or the ammo. I am not going to sort bullets and sort primers or sort cases and I am not going to neck turn etc. But I keeping hoping to get groups in the tens (.19 or better). Best I got today was a 5 shot group with the .223 with the GM of .28 and a 3 shot of the 6.5cm of .28 as well, the CM was my loads. I still catch myself jerking the trigger now and then and just started trying a rear bag today for the first time.

I have watched videos from that guy "winning in the wind" and he shoots in the tens like it's nothing.....but he does say he sorts bullets and primers etc.

 

[DarinC]

In my book, there’s no reason to hunt for stuff in the teens unless you’re shooting f class or benchrest.

 

[tinker]

In my book, there’s no reason to hunt for stuff in the teens unless you’re shooting f class or benchrest.

I get that from a practical point and I am certainly not shooting those. I might try a beginner PRS next year though.

I look at it like this, if the gun and the ammo is capable of teens, then I should be able to consistently hit 1/2 moa.

Basically I know every gun I own very likely will outshoot me.

I am just wondering if it's unrealistic to try to achieve better results?

 

[nn8734]

I get that from a practical point and I am certainly not shooting those. I might try a beginner PRS next year though.

I look at it like this, if the gun and the ammo is capable of teens, then I should be able to consistently hit 1/2 moa.

Basically I know every gun I own very likely will outshoot me.

I am just wondering if it's unrealistic to try to achieve better results?

1/2 moa is sufficient for PRS and most anything else other than maybe 1000 yard Fclass and BR. 85-90% of your results are shooter-driven (data collection, recordation and analysis, wind-reading and adjustment, etc), may they be good or bad not rifle or ammo.

Dont over-think or over-complicate shit. Develop a solid 1/2 minute load then a validated drop chart by shooting targets at known distances out to your carteidge's typical max effective range. Then practice, practice, practice in various shooting positions until you build the needed comditioning, fundimentals and muscle memory as you familiarize yourself with the rifle.

That's it.

 

[RegionRat]

@tinker If you go out and try some form of competition, be it BR or F-Class, it is likely you will quickly learn that rig doesn't do what you think it does.

BR considers 5 shot groups when they shoot for record. A relay stage is given sighters and a time limit to shoot their record shots.
There can be awards for the Aggregate of the ES of five 5 shot groups, and there can be an award for small group.

I realize many folks get a free pass on the forums when they claim their rifles shoot in the teens, but if that were really true they would be winning BR matches and setting records.

Some of this stems from terminology and sample size, some of it is ethics. I'm not calling folks out, but cherry picking a rare group is different than communicating the reliable performance level of their system. For example, what does the performance run at least 2 sigma worth of the time?

Long winded, backhanded way of saying, yes your expectations are unrealistic.
Just keep your load development expectations while shooting from rests the best you can, and then get off that bench and shoot the way you plan to when it counts. Body supported position shooting and learning to read wind will be a much bigger part of the group ES once you get off the bench and out past 300 yards.

Good Luck, Happy New Year, and Best Wishes on your 2024 season!

 

[tinker]

@tinker If you go out and try some form of competition, be it BR or F-Class, it is likely you will quickly learn that rig doesn't do what you think it does.

BR considers 5 shot groups when they shoot for record. A relay stage is given sighters and a time limit to shoot their record shots.
There can be awards for the Aggregate of the ES of five 5 shot groups, and there can be an award for small group.

I realize many folks get a free pass on the forums when they claim their rifles shoot in the teens, but if that were really true they would be winning BR matches and setting records.

Some of this stems from terminology and sample size, some of it is ethics. I'm not calling folks out, but cherry picking a rare group is different than communicating the reliable performance level of their system. For example, what does the performance run at least 2 sigma worth of the time?

Long winded, backhanded way of saying, yes your expectations are unrealistic.
Just keep your load development expectations while shooting from rests the best you can, and then get off that bench and shoot the way you plan to when it counts. Body supported position shooting and learning to read wind will be a much bigger part of the group ES once you get off the bench and out past 300 yards.

Good Luck, Happy New Year, and Best Wishes on your 2024 season!

Those are cherry picked groups for sure but I imagine most of it is my lack of shooting skills. Almost every group I have shot today and the last week was in the VERY high .20s to high .30s. Shooting lots of .30s is what is frustrating me.

The 5 shot at .28 did feel good today though. Not gonna lie even though it isn't really the norm for me.

 

[RegionRat]

The 5 shot at .28 did feel good today though. Not gonna lie even though it isn't really the norm for me.

Nothing wrong with your load performance. If I were going to give you any advice, it would be to shoot more and worry less.

Happy New Year!

 

[oldnewguy]

.25-.30 moa groups would put you in the middle of the pack for a BR national championship. I don't know what gun/ammo you're shooting, but it'd be hard to imagine it's capable of shooting better than .2 moa.

 

[Pharmseller]

I’m not that good, every time.

.75” at 100, no larger, every time, is plenty good enough.





P

 

[tinker]

.25-.30 moa groups would put you in the middle of the pack for a BR national championship. I don't know what gun/ammo you're shooting, but it'd be hard to imagine it's capable of shooting better than .2 moa.

It's kind of a weird used set up. It started life as an MPA rifle in 6.5x47 LP. It belonged to a friend who put a couple thousand rounds through it. I got for a deal used and pulled the barrel and rechambered it to 6.5CM since I already shoot that and was already set up to load that caliber (already have plenty of brass and bullets on hand).

Sounds like the only way to get to the teens is to do all the other stuff like sorting primers and pointing bullets etc.

I am just using my once fired hornady match brass (I know Lapua brass would be better but I already have a bunch of the hornady) and have a few 500rd boxes of 140gr SMK. I also have some 123s but have never tried them.

 

[memilanuk]

Sounds like the only way to get to the teens is to do all the other stuff like sorting primers and pointing bullets etc.

Or maybe use a front rest, higher power scope, wind flags / mirage boards. Like people who shoot actual BR do. Pretty sure those will do more to shrink your agg than pointing bullets.

For a field gun shot off a bipod and a soft bag, take what you got and go practice your position and wind calls. Don't try to make it something it isn't.

 

[bax]

Or maybe use a front rest, higher power scope, wind flags / mirage boards. Like people who shoot actual BR do. Pretty sure those will do more to shrink your agg than pointing bullets.

For a field gun shot off a bipod and a soft bag, take what you got and go practice your position and wind calls. Don't try to make it something it isn't.

Let's check assumptions. These are results from the 2023 Pennsylvania state IBS match, 100 yard heavy varmint.

100 yards, 13.5 pound guns. I included Bob White because I remember that name from the past - waaayyy past. Look at the match results for the winner - three of them are in the twos, match 5 is .199. Jeff's match 1 was small group for the entire match. Match 2 is .273.

These guys are shooting from a heavy front rest that fits the rifle fore-end and a rear bag with heavy sand. The front rest is adjusted to put the crosshairs on the point of aim, you don't touch the gun to aim. The gun is shot free-recoil. The shooter is sitting on a stool, the rifle, rest and bags are sitting on a concrete bench. Prior to the match, the shooter placed three to five wind flags between the bench and the target. There are dozens of wind flags on the range - if you are in the middle of the line, you can see a condition change coming. The target has a record section and a sighter section. You can shoot as many times as you like at the sighter - you have to put 5 rounds on the record target - there is a moving backer to confirm 5 shots. if you want, you can shoot sighter, record, sighter, record, and so forth. There is a time limit - I recall it is 7 minutes.

When this was my game, we all turned necks. Clearance between neck and chamber wall was either half a thou or one thou on each side, that is I had a .261 chamber and .243 bullets with either .008 or .0085 neck thickness. Brass was sorted by shooting. Nobody sorted primers. Everyone shot hand-made bullets. After cleaning and loading, we would stand behind the line and watch conditions and time how long a given condition persisted. That told you what condition to look for, how long it might last, what came before, and what came after.

If you have a BR gun with prepped brass and custom bullets, a BR-stye front rest and rear bag, a concrete bench, wind flags, and 7 minutes you could shoot a one, once in a while, and a 5-match agg around a small two in a state match.

If you have non-BR rifle that will shoot an occasional two and lots of threes, be happy. Most of us are happy with a gun that will shoot an occasional four and mostly fives and sixes at 100 yards.

 

[secondofangle2]

everybody cherry picks their 1/4 MOA groups and says that's what their gun "is capable of" or even "shoots all day long" and most of the time it's a farce, as has been noted herein.

Great justification for not shooting 3 & 5 shot groups, and instead shooting 10- and 20-shot groups, because you're not going to see 1/4 MOA in those unless it's really a BR capable rig. Then you'll stop saying you have a 1/4 MOA gun, which was an artifact of selective reporting of 5 shot groups all along.

 

[03machstock]

Those are cherry picked groups for sure but I imagine most of it is my lack of shooting skills. Almost every group I have shot today and the last week was in the VERY high .20s to high .30s. Shooting lots of .30s is what is frustrating me.

The 5 shot at .28 did feel good today though. Not gonna lie even though it isn't really the norm for me.

If your guns are shooting in the .2’s and .3’s for five shots almost every group you’re absolutely hammering in my book. Don’t touch the loads and keep shooting.

 

[tinker]

If your guns are shooting in the .2’s and .3’s for five shots almost every group you’re absolutely hammering in my book. Don’t touch the loads and keep shooting.

 

[tinker]

Weird I meant to reply to secondofangle and it wouldn't let me add text....

These (except for the last one) are the only groups I really shot with the CM last week and this week. The first one is from a set of groups for seating depth. I think I have a picture somewhere of the rest of the target.

The second and third are after i added 1" dots to be able to measure in rangebuddy. The last is just a 5 shot with the .223 and I didn't shoot any more at 100 because all the rest were having fun banging steel @ 200 except for one group that was at 200 yards to cofirm dope and that one was just a 3 shot of about .7 something i think.

I agree 10 shot groups give more confirmation than 3s and 5s. But for load development I am not rich and going to waste ammo. I shot enough to verify for my needs that the gun shoots well enough for now.

And from the feedback from others I had unrealistic expectations to try to chase numbers in the tens.

I will be content with how it shoots for now and try to get some range time but thank you for calling me full of crap. I appreciate it . I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself, hence why I didn't bother posting group pictures.

 

[tinker]

If your guns are shooting in the .2’s and .3’s for five shots almost every group you’re absolutely hammering in my book. Don’t touch the loads and keep shooting.

appreciate the kind words. I will be content and just try to work on fundamentals and more importantly the whole point of this rifle was to have something my 11 yr old can shoot. I didn't want to bring it up because it had no bearing on the conversation but my 11 yr old is on the autism spectrum and extremely recoil sensitive but with a silencer and a heavy gun he has fun. Up until about 6 months ago he would only shoot his 10/22 suppressed. I got him a heavy .223 and he was nervous at first but i have video of him hitting 4" steel at 200 on his first day with it.

Then we both shot an silhouette match (I think it was called nra hi power) with 4 diff types of animals. 200, 300, 400 and 500 meters. He did well. We were going to use my friends 223 because it has a 1:7 twist and would handle 77gr so he could knock the targets down. But we had to sideline the gun do to it having a couple stuck cases before the match. (this was my first time ever shooting any kind of match but a have a couple friends who go and went with them.

My son then tried a very heavy 6.5cm and he managed. So I built this creedmoor for him and a 223 trainer to be cheaper to practice. We plan on trying some matched together for fun over the next year.

 

[RegionRat]

That 6.5 CM is a good choice for him when recoil is an issue.

Next time you are at the silhouette match, ask around and folks will let him aim and dry fire the different stocks and scopes. This will give a good feel for how the ergonomics of the stocks, scopes, and mass balance work out.

Some stocks are better for kids that are still growing but who are also shy about recoil.

BTW, that 223 isn't that great of a choice for Silhouette. It often turns the rams and turkeys without knocking them down. Score is zero for a hit with no fall.

A 7-08 is often the best compromise between recoil and mental focus, versus enough impact energy to topple the rams and turkeys.

The 6.5 CM should be no problem either. And again, if the rig is under 0.5 MOA for 40 shots, you are doing fine. They take nice breaks to reset the plates, so base your views on two five shot groups at a time, with at least 60 shots between cleanings, and you will be well ahead of the pack.

Good Luck to you both and have fun, they grow up too fast.

Happy New Year!

 

[Baron23]

I have watched videos from that guy "winning in the wind" and he shoots in the tens like it's nothing.....but he does say he sorts bullets and primers etc.

That gentleman's name is Keith Glasscock and he came in 2nd at the F-Class Open (1,000 yard, right?) two or three times in a row and the difference between him and the winner was an X or two.

I very much like his data driven approach and yes, necks turned, bullets sorted for weight and concentricity, I bet he he measures case volume as well as case weight and I bet he does a lot more than I know about.

Something to think about...the X ring in an F-open match is 5". .5 MOA. Yeah, you have to read the wind (really well) and yeah, shooting at 1k ain't like shooting at 100, but still...if you can shoot .25 MOA consistently you could be a top competitor in almost all rifled sports, no?

By the by, you shoot much better shooter than I.

 

[tinker]

That 6.5 CM is a good choice for him when recoil is an issue.

Next time you are at the silhouette match, ask around and folks will let him aim and dry fire the different stocks and scopes. This will give a good feel for how the ergonomics of the stocks, scopes, and mass balance work out.

Some stocks are better for kids that are still growing but who are also shy about recoil.

BTW, that 223 isn't that great of a choice for Silhouette. It often turns the rams and turkeys without knocking them down. Score is zero for a hit with no fall.

A 7-08 is often the best compromise between recoil and mental focus, versus enough impact energy to topple the rams and turkeys.

The 6.5 CM should be no problem either. And again, if the rig is under 0.5 MOA for 40 shots, you are doing fine. They take nice breaks to reset the plates, so base your views on two five shot groups at a time, with at least 60 shots between cleanings, and you will be well ahead of the pack.

Good Luck to you both and have fun, they grow up too fast.

Happy New Year!

the 223 is just for practice banging steel at 200 at our local club. The 6.5CM would be for some practice and matches

 

[tinker]

That gentleman's name is Keith Glasscock and he came in 2nd at the F-Class Open (1,000 yard, right?) two or three times in a row and the difference between him and the winner was an X or two.

I very much like his data driven approach and yes, necks turned, bullets sorted for weight and concentricity, I bet he he measures case volume as well as case weight and I bet he does a lot more than I know about.

Something to think about...the X ring in an F-open match is 5". .5 MOA. Yeah, you have to read the wind (really well) and yeah, shooting at 1k ain't like shooting at 100, but still...if you can shoot .25 MOA consistently you could be a top competitor in almost all rifled sports, no?

By the by, you shoot much better shooter than I.

no consistently in the .3s "Some .2s. I need to work on fundamentals more for sure.

 

[Baron23]

no consistently in the .3s "Some .2s. I need to work on fundamentals more for sure.

Still way better than me! haha

 

[secondofangle2]

So this post was a humble-brag?

 

[tinker]

So this post was a humble-brag?

not at all. But your posts speak volumes to your character, with all your implied accusations.

This post was simple question of weather or not a basic rig is capable (generally speaking) of shooting in the tens on a regular basis without lots of extra fancy steps like pointing bullets, sorting brass, sorting primers etc etc.

Your only post was to accuse people (others maybe but specifically me) of lying.

If you think .3 groups are bragging.....you should just get off the internet and go watch your soaps.

 

[tinker]

@tinker If you go out and try some form of competition, be it BR or F-Class, it is likely you will quickly learn that rig doesn't do what you think it does.

BR considers 5 shot groups when they shoot for record. A relay stage is given sighters and a time limit to shoot their record shots.
There can be awards for the Aggregate of the ES of five 5 shot groups, and there can be an award for small group.

I realize many folks get a free pass on the forums when they claim their rifles shoot in the teens, but if that were really true they would be winning BR matches and setting records.

Some of this stems from terminology and sample size, some of it is ethics. I'm not calling folks out, but cherry picking a rare group is different than communicating the reliable performance level of their system. For example, what does the performance run at least 2 sigma worth of the time?

Long winded, backhanded way of saying, yes your expectations are unrealistic.
Just keep your load development expectations while shooting from rests the best you can, and then get off that bench and shoot the way you plan to when it counts. Body supported position shooting and learning to read wind will be a much bigger part of the group ES once you get off the bench and out past 300 yards.

Good Luck, Happy New Year, and Best Wishes on your 2024 season!

So I checked the dates and I am definitely going to do the beginner PRS this spring in April at Gap PA. Going to be happy with the load I have and just get more practice.

 

[secondofangle2]

not at all. But your posts speak volumes to your character, with all your implied accusations.

This post was simple question of weather or not a basic rig is capable (generally speaking) of shooting in the tens on a regular basis without lots of extra fancy steps like pointing bullets, sorting brass, sorting primers etc etc.

Your only post was to accuse people (others maybe but specifically me) of lying.

If you think .3 groups are bragging.....you should just get off the internet and go watch your soaps.

you came here all coy asking if your expectations are too high, making a claim that is usually false or grossly exaggerated (1/4 MOA all day!), and reasonable people know to be skeptical of such a claim. Then you post pics of these tiny little groups (great shooting by the way) that make the original question seem either naive (duh, bro! those are superb groups, hard to do better!) or a humblebrag. I'm sorry you're upset by it, and I didn't intend to offend you. I just call them as I see them.

variants of humble-brag
humblebragged or humble-bragged; humblebragging or humble-bragging
transitive + intransitive
: to make a seemingly modest, self-critical, or casual statement or reference that is meant to draw attention to one's admirable or impressive qualities or achievements

 

[bax]

I just noticed that you are shooting 3-shot groups. I feel a bit stupid for just noticing and not reading that in your original post but whatever.

You should go to a benchrest match and look at the wailing wall. Remember, those are mostly 5-shot matches - unlimited matches are 10-shots. Half or more of the targets on the wall will have a beautiful 4-shot group in the ones or zeros with a flyer making the group a three or four. I used to keep mine until there got to be too many. Those targets remind me that weather happens and every shot is independent of all the others and I have to focus on fundamentals for every shot. I have this problem when shooting targets at 1k. If I do my job, there is a 1-moa target that I can hit 5 times in a row. If I don't focus and do my job or if I become fatigued, that target kicks my ass.

Since you are not competing (or getting shot at), you don't have to convince anyone how well your rifle shoots - that is strictly your affair. But when you are comparing what you get to what other people get, you need to shoot the same number of rounds on the target. Most of us shoot 5-shot groups to sort brass, bullets, powder charges, primers, seating depth, neck tension, shoulder bump, and other stuff.

If you want a group size number that you can use for predictions (what is the probability that I can shoot an X, or a deer, at 500 yards), you need at least 10 shot groups, 20 is better. Supernatural 3-shot groups are as common as sand on a beach - even consecutive ones. Clearly your rifle can shoot good 3-shot groups. Hang a big target and shoot ten 5-shot groups on it. Measure every group, don't skip the ugly ones, and compute an average and one standard deviation. That will give you something. Now shoot five 10-shot groups, measure and compute, and see how they compare to your 5-shot groups.

 

[tinker]

I just noticed that you are shooting 3-shot groups. I feel a bit stupid for just noticing and not reading that in your original post but whatever.

You should go to a benchrest match and look at the wailing wall. Remember, those are mostly 5-shot matches - unlimited matches are 10-shots. Half or more of the targets on the wall will have a beautiful 4-shot group in the ones or zeros with a flyer making the group a three or four. I used to keep mine until there got to be too many. Those targets remind me that weather happens and every shot is independent of all the others and I have to focus on fundamentals for every shot. I have this problem when shooting targets at 1k. If I do my job, there is a 1-moa target that I can hit 5 times in a row. If I don't focus and do my job or if I become fatigued, that target kicks my ass.

Since you are not competing (or getting shot at), you don't have to convince anyone how well your rifle shoots - that is strictly your affair. But when you are comparing what you get to what other people get, you need to shoot the same number of rounds on the target. Most of us shoot 5-shot groups to sort brass, bullets, powder charges, primers, seating depth, neck tension, shoulder bump, and other stuff.

If you want a group size number that you can use for predictions (what is the probability that I can shoot an X, or a deer, at 500 yards), you need at least 10 shot groups, 20 is better. Supernatural 3-shot groups are as common as sand on a beach - even consecutive ones. Clearly your rifle can shoot good 3-shot groups. Hang a big target and shoot ten 5-shot groups on it. Measure every group, don't skip the ugly ones, and compute an average and one standard deviation. That will give you something. Now shoot five 10-shot groups, measure and compute, and see how they compare to your 5-shot groups.

Been busy working all week. I agree with what you are saying and do the same thing. You may have missed the part where this is load development for two new rifles.


doing some load development I am not always going to do 5 shot groups. Sometimes yes. Heck sometimes doing ladder it's a single shot per charge weight. It really depends on what I feel like doing. I have tried a few diff methods and am not 100% sold on any.

For seating depth tests my approach is groups of three (which I know is technically overkill as some do it with groups of two).

But lately my choice for load development is 5 shots. Like tomorrow I will be doing some in 223 with 5 shot groups. 4 diff loads in 77gr and I know I loaded some last week I didn't get a chance to try in 55gr but i don't remember but I think it was just seating depth.

Since i am still working on the loads for these two I will likely not shoot a string of groups that are the same charge or seating depth.

My whole orig question was just aimed at wondering where people feel like a load is developed enough for them.

 

[sinister]

If both your 6.5 Creedmoor and .223 Remington bolt guns consistently group at half-minute or better your son (wherever he is on the autism scale) can exceed at 1,000-yard F-class rifle without you having to do full benchrest load prepping.

Ditch the bipod and get a decent rest.

 

[tinker]

If both your 6.5 Creedmoor and .223 Remington bolt guns consistently group at half-minute or better your son (wherever he is on the autism scale) can exceed at 1,000-yard F-class rifle without you having to do full benchrest load prepping.

Ditch the bipod and get a decent rest.

I don't think we have any areas close (near Philadelphia) by to do F Class (honestly I don't think him or I are ready for that level.

He is just on the spectrum. It's mostly behavioral but usually environment induced (mostly noise) and they use to call it Asperger's but now they just say on the autism spectrum. He is where people don't know anything is different until something goes wrong.

He is doing well though. The week after he shot that silhouette match, we played battleship at 100 yards. He beat me, but I think a little of it is the ammo we were using. That 223 really wasn't liking a bunch of 223 I loaded a couple years ago as an AR plinking round. But I had made a thousand of them and still had about 700 left in an ammo can so why not use them up.

That stuff shot about 1/2-3/4 moa

 

[tinker]

If both your 6.5 Creedmoor and .223 Remington bolt guns consistently group at half-minute or better your son (wherever he is on the autism scale) can exceed at 1,000-yard F-class rifle without you having to do full benchrest load prepping.

Ditch the bipod and get a decent rest.

Also i goofed. I can't do the PRS match. I thought it was an hour away in GAP PA, turns out it's somewhere else like 4 hours away.
Also It is on a Saturday. I have to work Saturdays, For some reason I thought it was April 15th which was on a Monday and I am off Mondays. It was too good to be true.

But I was leaning toward PRS because from what I gather the accuracy needed is not as bad as F Class.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I’m no expert, at least not anymore, but I have no problem with three shot groups. As long as the shooter shoots lots of three shot groups at a time, before coming to a conclusion. Ten three shot groups in a row is as good as three ten shot groups In a row. its the average of 30 shots.

Now, in the last two years I have posted groups of 0.10 or better, twice. With two different rifles no less, two different calibers. Boy they look good on paper. But look at the paper and decide if they have any meaning at all.

Ain’t she pretty? 0.13 center to center, gotta be pure luck. What concerned me was the next set where two good groups were set by a group right at an inch. So, I went back and reshot it again. After 6 groups, the average was just at 1/2 MOA center to center. So, to me, it’s not the number of rounds in a group, it’s the number of rounds. (And more is the better). Note the groups on the left are a different load level than the group on the right, this was just part of an extended test.

 

[sinister]

I don't think we have any areas close (near Philadelphia) by to do F Class (honestly I don't think him or I are ready for that level.

You're ready.

You have New Holland; Bridgeville, Delaware; Central Jersey Rifle and Pistol; and Cumberland Riflemen, all within reasonable driving distance.

F-Class is firing a rifle on your belly, using a rest, bags, and a mat. You and your son don't have to do Tarzan stuff over the river and through the woods -- just shoot for scores.

 

[tinker]

You're ready.

You have New Holland; Bridgeville, Delaware; Central Jersey Rifle and Pistol; and Cumberland Riflemen, all within reasonable driving distance.

F-Class is firing a rifle on your belly, using a rest, bags, and a mat. You and your son don't have to do Tarzan stuff over the river and through the woods -- just shoot for scores.

Will def look into those. NJ is no go though, just because we can't bring silencers there. My son can't shoot without one.

 

[sinister]

How well does your son handle noise and shoot if others are also shooting? I ask because New Holland's roof can reflect noise (and the others aren't shooting suppressed).

This is New Holland's 600-yard mid-range match format:

Firing line:

View from the firing line to 600 yards:

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How well does your son handle noise and shoot if others are also shooting? I ask because New Holland's roof can reflect noise (and the others aren't shooting suppressed).

This is New Holland's 600-yard mid-range match format:

View attachment 8318335

Firing line:

View attachment 8318337

View from the firing line to 600 yards:

View attachment 8318336

That place is why A419 brakes should be banned. Nice range but yea its almost as bad as shooting in those concrete tubes in the MIL. We shoot PRS matches there. A bunch of us on the site shoot PRS in the region.

OP

I would skip the flclass shit honestly. Its boring and dying unless you want to hang out with 70 year old dudes telling bullshit war stories of wars they never fought in. PRS will force you to become a good shooter. Its one of the benefits of the diversified shooting style.

https://practiscore.com/mdprs-beginners-match-2024/register

The beginners match would be a great place to start.

Here are the PRS matches for the 2024 season in the region. I am an hour south of philly and shoot them all. WAR/Giessle, New Holland, Mayberry, Lewistown and Quantico when they get their shit together. There are a bunch of guys who would be happy to show you the ropes.

Precision Rifle Series - Northeast Region

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.

www.precisionrifleseries.com

 

[tinker]

How well does your son handle noise and shoot if others are also shooting? I ask because New Holland's roof can reflect noise (and the others aren't shooting suppressed).

This is New Holland's 600-yard mid-range match format:

View attachment 8318335

Firing line:

View attachment 8318337

View from the firing line to 600 yards:

View attachment 8318336

A lot of him shooting with the can is mitigating felt recoil and some of the noise. When we are at our club and someone is close by with a brake it bothers him a lot. The one match we did shoot he was so focused it didn't bother him (this was at Atglen so it has a roof as well) and he was ok.

 

[tinker]

That place is why A419 brakes should be banned. Nice range but yea its almost as bad as shooting in those concrete tubes in the MIL. We shoot PRS matches there. A bunch of us on the site shoot PRS in the region.

OP

I would skip the flclass shit honestly. Its boring and dying unless you want to hang out with 70 year old dudes telling bullshit war stories of wars they never fought in. PRS will force you to become a good shooter. Its one of the benefits of the diversified shooting style.

https://practiscore.com/mdprs-beginners-match-2024/register

The beginners match would be a great place to start.

Here are the PRS matches for the 2024 season in the region. I am an hour south of philly and shoot them all. WAR/Giessle, New Holland, Mayberry, Lewistown and Quantico when they get their shit together. There are a bunch of guys who would be happy to show you the ropes.

Precision Rifle Series - Northeast Region

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.

www.precisionrifleseries.com

I showed him a video of a PRS match....he said he just would rather stay at the bench which with me is ok as I would have to carry the rifle for him and help hold onto it (he weighs about 80 lbs and is only 11. But he is in 7th grade because they bumped him up a couple years ago. And for me I don't really mind boring.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

11 is pretty young, and they wont be strong enough to move the gun around. 13-14 is about when most kids start and can handle it.

 

[tinker]

11 is pretty young, and they wont be strong enough to move the gun around. 13-14 is about when most kids start and can handle it.

agreed. He just really enjoys shooting....sometimes. So the nra silhouette stuff was just right. F Class will likely be fun, but i just know we aren't going to win witch is kinda sad but it should still be fun. If he comes in dead last i will feel awful though

 

[tinker]

How well does your son handle noise and shoot if others are also shooting? I ask because New Holland's roof can reflect noise (and the others aren't shooting suppressed).

This is New Holland's 600-yard mid-range match format:

View attachment 8318335

Firing line:

View attachment 8318337

View from the firing line to 600 yards:

View attachment 8318336

That is where I thought the beginner prs match was and somehow thought it was on the 15th.

If the dates work I think we would have fun there and it's only an hour drive.

 

[tinker]

6.5 CM load is good enough for now but I think i settled on a load and seat depth for the .223 for my son.

Of course these are just cherry picked groups and don't really count for any kind of data since they are only three shot groups.
I think for now I will stick with group #1 of the seating depth test. Technically it measures about the same as the #3 though.

 

[sinister]

If your son ever gets to the point where he wears out his .223 barrel your next one should be a 1-7 or 1-8 twist to take advantage of the longer 80-grain Sierra, Berger, and Nosler bullets for their wind resistance (compared to a 73 to 77-grainer) past 600 to 1,000 yards.

 

[tinker]

If your son ever gets to the point where he wears out his .223 barrel your next one should be a 1-7 or 1-8 twist to take advantage of the longer 80-grain Sierra, Berger, and Nosler bullets for their wind resistance (compared to a 73 to 77-grainer) past 600 to 1,000 yards.

I have two .223s for him now. I started with a 1:9 because I came across it cheap. This one I am doing the load for is second hand and I am told is 1:7.5

 

[tinker]

If your son ever gets to the point where he wears out his .223 barrel your next one should be a 1-7 or 1-8 twist to take advantage of the longer 80-grain Sierra, Berger, and Nosler bullets for their wind resistance (compared to a 73 to 77-grainer) past 600 to 1,000 yards.

And I do have a couple of 223 26" M24 profile blanks on standby I could whip up if needed.

 

[sinister]

An M24 is going to be really heavy. I'm sure he'll beef up as he gets older, but an M24 isn't something a 12-year-old is gonna want to mule over distance and relief.

 

[tinker]

An M24 is going to be really heavy. I'm sure he'll beef up as he gets older, but an M24 isn't something a 12-year-old is gonna want to mule over distance and relief.

For now we want really heavy for the recoil for him. He won't be having to lug anything yet.

 

[James40004]

I have a son with aspergers also. Went to 22 lr matches for the noise.
James