ZenBiker990
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Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
In my newest attempt to re-ignite the new growth in a zone of scorched earth, I'm seeking opinions on floating vs. rigid reamer holders. Using a thru-the-headstock setup and a bore indicated with a long stem .0005 indicator-is a floating holder a blessing or curse?
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
Machinist 101:
Work holding, tool holding.
Machine tool manufacturers and tooling manufacturers invest millions of dollars to mitigate uncontrolled movement of a tool or work piece.
Based on that fact and the fact that we are doing machine work, it sure seems to point in the direction that the more rigid a setup is, the more predictable the outcome will be.
Thousands of barrels, rigid tooling. If it didn't' work, I'd be strung up by genitals and feeding the flies.
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RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
Can you get your reamer holder, what ever it may be, dead nuts aligned with your spindle axis and have it absolutely repeatable. If so, the answer to your question should be pretty obvious.
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ZenBiker990
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016 Last edited 10/15/2016 by ZenBiker990
Obvious now that you say it, tailstock alignment and all. I've always used rigid setups, but keep hearing the little voices, mostly from AR gunsmiths, about bore deviation and the need to follow it, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge the damage it does to chamber concentricty. Then it all goes back to bore indication method and the guys who use two dial indicators on range rods, which seems like chasing one's tail given the problems with range rods. I'm all for keeping things simple, but just had to remove that last shred of doubt. Rigid it is.
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016 Last edited 10/15/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
I did it just fine on manuals for YEARS before ever diving off the cliff of automation.
It's fundamentals. Nothing more. CNC just gets it done faster. That's it.
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bohemr13
X97 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
If you don't have a DRO on a manual lathe it's going to be a painful process setting up for a rigid holder on your cross slide every time. For this reason if I have to touch a chamber on a manual machine I use a floating head. For that matter, if I'm touching an existing chamber on a manual machine, I default to a floating holder anyway.
For doing regular process work here I will say "what he said" x 3
Rigid
High pressure muzzle thru flush coolant for chip evacuation
Coolant optimized for deep hole reaming and form cutting in SS
SFM and chiploads optimized for rigid holders and carbide cutters.
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RubiconPrecision
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
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wi50shooterXSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
You're indicated to the nuts,does your tail stock hold a 0.0005" as you push the reamer into the barrel? Or in Chads manual method, does your cross slide hold that tolerance as you dive it towards the chuck?
Does it matter?
I made my floating tamer holder simply for the fact that I've used the bald eagle unit and didn't like holding that stupid lever..
Many ways to skin the cat, what's yours?
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RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
FWIW, from what I recall from a test I did many moons ago, the tailstock on my Chinese 13x40 lathe can deviate .0015" from morning to afternoon. I have not checked the deviation anywhere on the carriage but I'd be willing to bet it changes.
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ZenBiker990
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
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ZenBiker990
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
Yep on the muzle flush.
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ugsly308XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
There are many way to go about this. Ill tell you what I have found and what works best for me and try to explain it the best I can. I have the 4003G Grizzly lathe and have cut chambers using the JGS floating holder, using a dead center to push the reamer & using a floating pusher. The problem I ran into with getting my tailstock deadnuts true was, it depended on how much torq it took then at what position on the bed the tailstock was varied some. If your tailstock is off .001 your going to cut an oblong chamber using a floating holder. Using a floating pusher and preboring your going to drive the reamer straight regardless if your tailstock is off a tad. Either way you go check your runout at the end, that will give you some feedback on how well your doing. Ive talked to some top level benchrest shooters and they all do things different and some make me cringe. I would always drill and prebore the chamber before hand since no barrel is straight. I had a guy bring a 300 win mag to me awhile back and said he was having a problem with his brass. Long story short the brass measured .010 bigger as the ass end of the case then it should of. The rifle shot outstanding even though the chamber was oblong. There was plenty of meat on the chank left that I set it back and cut a new chamber and his brass problem went away.
Hope it helps,
Casey
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X65 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
I prebore and then drift with a carbide insert boring bar and check the prebore with the indicated bore before running in a reamer. Always torque the tailstock with a torque!wrench but never have checked to see how much variance there is in my machine in different bed positions. Casey, I see the logic behind your setup; will keep that one in mind.
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/18/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
You don't need a DRO to do this.
Here's a process I still use on the NC to setup a job.
Ok, get a straight shaft. Something ground and free of taper that has a point on one end, similar to a dead center used on the tails stock. In a perfect world you'll have it made to .4375 OD as that is the same used by the majority of tool vendors for reamer shanks. Use it to align your post/holder. Just indicate it parallel to the spindle in the L/R and U/D axis. (Z and Y).
Once you have it, lock that down so it can't move.
Onto the next step.
Prior to all of this you make/modify a dead center. You drill a hole at a right angle and shove a rod in it. Mount this center between the breech and the center mounted in the tool post. The rod sticking out of it needs to be short enough to allow 360* of rotation. -Don't let it hit the bed...
Now, make another contraption. On a chuck jaw, clamp something to it that effectively increases the swept arc of the chuck. The full swing clearance of the machine is what your after. It too needs to clear the bed.
On the dead center shaft mount an indicator to it and have it touch the jaw extension. Just use a .001" resolution indicator. No reason/advantage to use one that goes to 10ths. The distance from center in this case is acting like a multiplier that exaggerates the error.
From here it's easy. Go to 3 clock pos. Zero the bezel. Rotate 180* to 9 clock. Note difference, move the carriage (X) and split the value. Recheck, repeat if required.
Now repeat in the vertical plane for the Y axis. This is where a quality tool post will make life better as all your doing is moving the height adjustment as if you were setting a turning tool to center.
Once you have it, lock down the X and the Y. Note: When "roughing" this in, you want to go back and check the other axis. You make a big change on one, you are going to alter the other slightly. It's kinda like the frog that jumps half its distance every time. You just chip back and forth till you get what you're after.
Pull the setup piece from the holder, mount a reamer, and get to making chips.
Done it this way for years. It works. It's easy, and you don't need a huge investment in exotic shit. I like it because the distance increase amplifies the perceived error. That means you're splitting some rather impressive "red ones" down at the level being worked at.
Hope this helps someone. Good luck.
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Djstorm100
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/18/2016 by Djstorm100
Chad, I'm a visual learner. I mocked this up in Pro-E but it gets the point across. Black cube is the tool post.
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jakefreeseX48 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016
I started aligning like Chad described, it works great.
What are yall running for flush systems?
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/21/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
This is a bit more along the lines of what I was describing. The dead center to the left is where you'd have your tool post. You have to be able to articulate the middle center/indicator in order to see the change from moving the tool post to the spindle centerline. Put a pencil between your L/R index fingers. Move off axis, move back to axis. Same thing. Jaws are inverted cause that's how I had it for a particular setup. This is a thrown together assembly I made in "Ess Dubyah"
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jakefreeseX48 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016
I actually put my live center in a Aloris CA-54 Morse taper holder, a straight shank dead center in the chuck. I used a piece of a barrel about the same length as a reamer with it center drilled so its smooth where the centers touch.
I machined a piece to sit in one of the chuck grooves with a clamp as the chuck plane extension. If I get that machine put back together this weekend I'll get some pictures.
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honesthopX23 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/21/2016
i'm no pro by any stretch but I think many 'gunsmith sized manual lathes' just aren't massively stiff enough for ridgid reaming as cnc machine are generally tough sob's. most import manuals will not be aligned worth a broke dik. I ground .0065'' to zero on tailstock. i know it is now aligned weather the quill is withdrawn or normal extension needs. what little I do is with indicator chopsticks but when I spring the lottery for a long-stem, I will. my Christmas list is getting big, too big I fear. I got a once used jlg floater for $50 and use that now and it seems to have helped holding back reamer chatter, a true smith'e scourge. if you align to the best you got, I use a ptg piloted center drill, predrill, ream. ream it. I was thinking of a high pressure flush, but oil works fine. just takes longer, withdrawls and cleaning. i'll end up getting my Christmas goodies for smithing. I really think that new machining processes [cnc] that when people understand as well as like Chad and others in BUSINESS, they're hard to beat. hell these rifles out of the box mass produced are some real shooters. screw the steady rest business. chuck the chamber. if the barrel aint long enough to fit in an out board spider, make a barrel extension, clamp on barrel. now you indicate. or make a barrel 'chuck' that goes in your lathe chuck, heavy wall alum on mine, has 6 8 [ pistol shorties] brass tipped 7/16'' std fine thread for alignment positioning.-- good luck -Hoppy
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RAVAGE88XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/22/2016 Last edited 10/22/2016 by RAVAGE88
(2 votes)
I designed and had special gauging (Vermont Gauge) made to align the spindle and toolholder. Once the alignment is made, the offsets are set accordingly as G5X for that toolholder; very fast and incredibly accurate/repeatable with built-in checks and balances. Expensive route (for gauging), but fact basis is defendable and results are stellar. Once the bore is dialed in, validations are made to G5X with an additional set of ground gauges that's part of the alignment gauge set. As a result, surface finish is impeccable.
MB
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X65 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/28/2016
The CNC stuff is good to know; giving serious consideration now to joining the computer age. A certain muzzle brake maker has had me on the hook for over two months waiting for a brake to finish an otherwise completed rifle while he is otherwise occupied. I'm ready to get a 4 axis and go into the muzzlebrake business; obviously the market is more than current supply can - or cares - to bear.
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ClarkmagXFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/29/2016 Last edited 10/29/2016 by Clarkmag
I started buying lathes and chambering rifles in 2000.
Mike Bryant had a website and a method. He was very helpful.
bryantcustom.com/articles/rebarrel.htm
I push the reamer with a #3 Morse Taper chuck arbor [$4] and hold the reamer with a tap handle. I run the handle on the ways for low compliance no chatter and then lift with my high compliance finger to feel for torque.
[/img]
This is my 2015 Mauser in 6.5-06. I shot a white tail doe [small kill zone] at 629 yards. My best hail Mary to date.
I got the home made tap holder at a yard sale. The knurling and checkering are quite varied, but it was 50 cents.
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carlsbad2XCorporal
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/30/2016
The things that make a rifle accurate do not include whether you use a fixed or floating reamer holder.
However, if you use a fixed reamer holder you need to know for sure your tailstock or aligned cross slide is DNO. any misalignment can cause lots of inaccuracies.
--jerry
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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5423 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/31/2016 Last edited 10/31/2016 by LongRiflesInc
FWIW I've watched Middelton Tompkins chamber barrels with a pair of vice grips.
Mid, Nancy, Michelle, and Sheri have been a friend since I was 19. That family has forgotten more about winning national titles then most will ever know. 19+ US Palma Teams alone for Mid... Nancy is the only woman to ever win an NRA Highpower National Title.
There's lots of ways to skin this cat. I chose one method, others will do as they see fit. If you have a poor setup, mine will reveal that flaw very quickly. Measure 2x, cut 1x.
C.
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billmy67XCorporal
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/03/2016
Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
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RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
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3733 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
11/03/2016
(1 vote)
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":" photo B4B8DA12-C4D9-409E-A20F-56A282D6EA5E_zpsjmzcnphq.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/img.photobucket.com\/albums\/v654\/300sniper\/cnc\/B4B8DA12-C4D9-409E-A20F-56A282D6EA5E_zpsjmzcnphq.jpg"}[/IMG2]
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/04/2016 Last edited 11/04/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
I will take that bet.
One. "Stiction". Ever heard of it? Motorcycle guys have. It has to do with the front suspension of a bike due to drag from things like fork seals and whatnot. What the hell does that have to do with guns and reams? Grease your palms with the slimiest stuff you can source. push them together, then slide them across one another. Feel that initial force you have to overcome? Stiction. Now imagine the load imparted onto a tool as it chambers and the "floating whatever it is" inside the tool holder. You have the same exact thing only in this scenario you are not directing the tool at a right angle to it's axis. You are depending on the nose of the tool to steer the ass end. Good luck with that... Claiming this works is along the same mindset that claiming a tap with a hole down the middle of it will machine threads on center every time regardless of location problems. (ie: blueprinting actions with mandrels and taps)
So the question further begs with just how much actual float is actually taking place? That said, how well does the tool manage torsion? That is the real killer of barrels and tooling.
Having chambered literally thousands of barrels using rigid reamer setups I can promise you this type of dialog is the product of internet hyperactivity( in desperate need of an inhaler.) Until someone else does it for thousands of barrels and comes up with conclusive contradictive data, I'll stick with the experience I've acquired from doing it for almost a decade. I shitcanned floating reamer holders because they suck balls. Get the setup right, and the clouds will part so that the heavens shine down on you once you hold onto a tool rigidly.
I shit you not.
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RAVAGE88XSergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
337 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
11/05/2016
^^^^What RP and LRI said....
MB
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birddogsx3XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
12/16/2016
Moving this one back up top as it has been one of the most helpful and insightful post for me. I just started plumbing my own shit and after trying both methods I was far more successful with a rigid set up. Definitely takes a little more time and money up front but worth it to me. I am not in it to turn a profit so time is on my side. A huge thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Especially Mr. Dixon I copied your process for the rigid set up and it was spot on.
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
12/19/2016
Cool, glad it worked. Less tools, less potential for error.
X65 MONTHS
Premium Member
Sergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
376 posts this site
Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
In my newest attempt to re-ignite the new growth in a zone of scorched earth, I'm seeking opinions on floating vs. rigid reamer holders. Using a thru-the-headstock setup and a bore indicated with a long stem .0005 indicator-is a floating holder a blessing or curse?
Rate now:
LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
5423 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
Machinist 101:
Work holding, tool holding.
Machine tool manufacturers and tooling manufacturers invest millions of dollars to mitigate uncontrolled movement of a tool or work piece.
Based on that fact and the fact that we are doing machine work, it sure seems to point in the direction that the more rigid a setup is, the more predictable the outcome will be.
Thousands of barrels, rigid tooling. If it didn't' work, I'd be strung up by genitals and feeding the flies.
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RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.5/5 this site
3733 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
Can you get your reamer holder, what ever it may be, dead nuts aligned with your spindle axis and have it absolutely repeatable. If so, the answer to your question should be pretty obvious.
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ZenBiker990
X65 MONTHS
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Sergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
376 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016 Last edited 10/15/2016 by ZenBiker990
Obvious now that you say it, tailstock alignment and all. I've always used rigid setups, but keep hearing the little voices, mostly from AR gunsmiths, about bore deviation and the need to follow it, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge the damage it does to chamber concentricty. Then it all goes back to bore indication method and the guys who use two dial indicators on range rods, which seems like chasing one's tail given the problems with range rods. I'm all for keeping things simple, but just had to remove that last shred of doubt. Rigid it is.
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
5423 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016 Last edited 10/15/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
I did it just fine on manuals for YEARS before ever diving off the cliff of automation.
It's fundamentals. Nothing more. CNC just gets it done faster. That's it.
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bohemr13
X97 MONTHS
Premium Member
First Sergeant
Rating: 3.6/5 this site
7849 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
If you don't have a DRO on a manual lathe it's going to be a painful process setting up for a rigid holder on your cross slide every time. For this reason if I have to touch a chamber on a manual machine I use a floating head. For that matter, if I'm touching an existing chamber on a manual machine, I default to a floating holder anyway.
For doing regular process work here I will say "what he said" x 3
Rigid
High pressure muzzle thru flush coolant for chip evacuation
Coolant optimized for deep hole reaming and form cutting in SS
SFM and chiploads optimized for rigid holders and carbide cutters.
Rate now:
RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.5/5 this site
3733 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
LongRiflesInc wrote:
I did it just fine on manuals for YEARS before ever diving off the cliff of automation.
It's fundamentals. Nothing more. CNC just gets it done faster. That's it.
I'm guessing you weren't using the typical out of the crate Grizzly or other budget machine that are so common in GS shops.I did it just fine on manuals for YEARS before ever diving off the cliff of automation.
It's fundamentals. Nothing more. CNC just gets it done faster. That's it.
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wi50shooterXSergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
212 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
You're indicated to the nuts,does your tail stock hold a 0.0005" as you push the reamer into the barrel? Or in Chads manual method, does your cross slide hold that tolerance as you dive it towards the chuck?
Does it matter?
I made my floating tamer holder simply for the fact that I've used the bald eagle unit and didn't like holding that stupid lever..
Many ways to skin the cat, what's yours?
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RubiconPrecision
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.5/5 this site
3733 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/15/2016
FWIW, from what I recall from a test I did many moons ago, the tailstock on my Chinese 13x40 lathe can deviate .0015" from morning to afternoon. I have not checked the deviation anywhere on the carriage but I'd be willing to bet it changes.
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ZenBiker990
X65 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
RubiconPrecision wrote:
FWIW, from what I recall from a test I did many moons ago, the tailstock on my Chinese 13x40 lathe can deviate .0015" from morning to afternoon. I have not checked the deviation anywhere on the carriage but I'd be willing to bet it changes.
That's interesting - what cause the deviation? Temp? Gravitational pull of the moon? Is the tailstock changing, or the indicator? Why do chickens cross roads? Seriously. Trying to do the best I can with what I have, which is a Grizzly 13x40 because that's all I can afford.FWIW, from what I recall from a test I did many moons ago, the tailstock on my Chinese 13x40 lathe can deviate .0015" from morning to afternoon. I have not checked the deviation anywhere on the carriage but I'd be willing to bet it changes.
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ZenBiker990
X65 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
Yep on the muzle flush.
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ugsly308XSergeant
Rating: 3.1/5 this site
246 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
There are many way to go about this. Ill tell you what I have found and what works best for me and try to explain it the best I can. I have the 4003G Grizzly lathe and have cut chambers using the JGS floating holder, using a dead center to push the reamer & using a floating pusher. The problem I ran into with getting my tailstock deadnuts true was, it depended on how much torq it took then at what position on the bed the tailstock was varied some. If your tailstock is off .001 your going to cut an oblong chamber using a floating holder. Using a floating pusher and preboring your going to drive the reamer straight regardless if your tailstock is off a tad. Either way you go check your runout at the end, that will give you some feedback on how well your doing. Ive talked to some top level benchrest shooters and they all do things different and some make me cringe. I would always drill and prebore the chamber before hand since no barrel is straight. I had a guy bring a 300 win mag to me awhile back and said he was having a problem with his brass. Long story short the brass measured .010 bigger as the ass end of the case then it should of. The rifle shot outstanding even though the chamber was oblong. There was plenty of meat on the chank left that I set it back and cut a new chamber and his brass problem went away.
Hope it helps,
Casey
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X65 MONTHS
Premium Member
Sergeant
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376 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/16/2016
I prebore and then drift with a carbide insert boring bar and check the prebore with the indicated bore before running in a reamer. Always torque the tailstock with a torque!wrench but never have checked to see how much variance there is in my machine in different bed positions. Casey, I see the logic behind your setup; will keep that one in mind.
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LongRiflesInc
XFirst Sergeant
Rating: 3.3/5 this site
5423 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/18/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
You don't need a DRO to do this.
Here's a process I still use on the NC to setup a job.
Ok, get a straight shaft. Something ground and free of taper that has a point on one end, similar to a dead center used on the tails stock. In a perfect world you'll have it made to .4375 OD as that is the same used by the majority of tool vendors for reamer shanks. Use it to align your post/holder. Just indicate it parallel to the spindle in the L/R and U/D axis. (Z and Y).
Once you have it, lock that down so it can't move.
Onto the next step.
Prior to all of this you make/modify a dead center. You drill a hole at a right angle and shove a rod in it. Mount this center between the breech and the center mounted in the tool post. The rod sticking out of it needs to be short enough to allow 360* of rotation. -Don't let it hit the bed...
Now, make another contraption. On a chuck jaw, clamp something to it that effectively increases the swept arc of the chuck. The full swing clearance of the machine is what your after. It too needs to clear the bed.
On the dead center shaft mount an indicator to it and have it touch the jaw extension. Just use a .001" resolution indicator. No reason/advantage to use one that goes to 10ths. The distance from center in this case is acting like a multiplier that exaggerates the error.
From here it's easy. Go to 3 clock pos. Zero the bezel. Rotate 180* to 9 clock. Note difference, move the carriage (X) and split the value. Recheck, repeat if required.
Now repeat in the vertical plane for the Y axis. This is where a quality tool post will make life better as all your doing is moving the height adjustment as if you were setting a turning tool to center.
Once you have it, lock down the X and the Y. Note: When "roughing" this in, you want to go back and check the other axis. You make a big change on one, you are going to alter the other slightly. It's kinda like the frog that jumps half its distance every time. You just chip back and forth till you get what you're after.
Pull the setup piece from the holder, mount a reamer, and get to making chips.
Done it this way for years. It works. It's easy, and you don't need a huge investment in exotic shit. I like it because the distance increase amplifies the perceived error. That means you're splitting some rather impressive "red ones" down at the level being worked at.
Hope this helps someone. Good luck.
Rate now:
Djstorm100
XGunny Sergeant
Rating: 3.2/5 this site
527 posts this site
Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/18/2016 by Djstorm100
Chad, I'm a visual learner. I mocked this up in Pro-E but it gets the point across. Black cube is the tool post.
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jakefreeseX48 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016
I started aligning like Chad described, it works great.
What are yall running for flush systems?
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LongRiflesInc
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016 Last edited 10/21/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
This is a bit more along the lines of what I was describing. The dead center to the left is where you'd have your tool post. You have to be able to articulate the middle center/indicator in order to see the change from moving the tool post to the spindle centerline. Put a pencil between your L/R index fingers. Move off axis, move back to axis. Same thing. Jaws are inverted cause that's how I had it for a particular setup. This is a thrown together assembly I made in "Ess Dubyah"
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jakefreeseX48 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/18/2016
I actually put my live center in a Aloris CA-54 Morse taper holder, a straight shank dead center in the chuck. I used a piece of a barrel about the same length as a reamer with it center drilled so its smooth where the centers touch.
I machined a piece to sit in one of the chuck grooves with a clamp as the chuck plane extension. If I get that machine put back together this weekend I'll get some pictures.
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honesthopX23 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/21/2016
i'm no pro by any stretch but I think many 'gunsmith sized manual lathes' just aren't massively stiff enough for ridgid reaming as cnc machine are generally tough sob's. most import manuals will not be aligned worth a broke dik. I ground .0065'' to zero on tailstock. i know it is now aligned weather the quill is withdrawn or normal extension needs. what little I do is with indicator chopsticks but when I spring the lottery for a long-stem, I will. my Christmas list is getting big, too big I fear. I got a once used jlg floater for $50 and use that now and it seems to have helped holding back reamer chatter, a true smith'e scourge. if you align to the best you got, I use a ptg piloted center drill, predrill, ream. ream it. I was thinking of a high pressure flush, but oil works fine. just takes longer, withdrawls and cleaning. i'll end up getting my Christmas goodies for smithing. I really think that new machining processes [cnc] that when people understand as well as like Chad and others in BUSINESS, they're hard to beat. hell these rifles out of the box mass produced are some real shooters. screw the steady rest business. chuck the chamber. if the barrel aint long enough to fit in an out board spider, make a barrel extension, clamp on barrel. now you indicate. or make a barrel 'chuck' that goes in your lathe chuck, heavy wall alum on mine, has 6 8 [ pistol shorties] brass tipped 7/16'' std fine thread for alignment positioning.-- good luck -Hoppy
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RAVAGE88XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/22/2016 Last edited 10/22/2016 by RAVAGE88
(2 votes)
I designed and had special gauging (Vermont Gauge) made to align the spindle and toolholder. Once the alignment is made, the offsets are set accordingly as G5X for that toolholder; very fast and incredibly accurate/repeatable with built-in checks and balances. Expensive route (for gauging), but fact basis is defendable and results are stellar. Once the bore is dialed in, validations are made to G5X with an additional set of ground gauges that's part of the alignment gauge set. As a result, surface finish is impeccable.
MB
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X65 MONTHS
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/28/2016
The CNC stuff is good to know; giving serious consideration now to joining the computer age. A certain muzzle brake maker has had me on the hook for over two months waiting for a brake to finish an otherwise completed rifle while he is otherwise occupied. I'm ready to get a 4 axis and go into the muzzlebrake business; obviously the market is more than current supply can - or cares - to bear.
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ClarkmagXFirst Sergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/29/2016 Last edited 10/29/2016 by Clarkmag
I started buying lathes and chambering rifles in 2000.
Mike Bryant had a website and a method. He was very helpful.
bryantcustom.com/articles/rebarrel.htm
I push the reamer with a #3 Morse Taper chuck arbor [$4] and hold the reamer with a tap handle. I run the handle on the ways for low compliance no chatter and then lift with my high compliance finger to feel for torque.
This is my 2015 Mauser in 6.5-06. I shot a white tail doe [small kill zone] at 629 yards. My best hail Mary to date.
I got the home made tap holder at a yard sale. The knurling and checkering are quite varied, but it was 50 cents.
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carlsbad2XCorporal
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/30/2016
The things that make a rifle accurate do not include whether you use a fixed or floating reamer holder.
However, if you use a fixed reamer holder you need to know for sure your tailstock or aligned cross slide is DNO. any misalignment can cause lots of inaccuracies.
--jerry
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LongRiflesInc
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Re: Reamer Holder
10/31/2016 Last edited 10/31/2016 by LongRiflesInc
FWIW I've watched Middelton Tompkins chamber barrels with a pair of vice grips.
Mid, Nancy, Michelle, and Sheri have been a friend since I was 19. That family has forgotten more about winning national titles then most will ever know. 19+ US Palma Teams alone for Mid... Nancy is the only woman to ever win an NRA Highpower National Title.
There's lots of ways to skin this cat. I chose one method, others will do as they see fit. If you have a poor setup, mine will reveal that flaw very quickly. Measure 2x, cut 1x.
C.
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billmy67XCorporal
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/03/2016
Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
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RubiconPrecision
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/03/2016
(1 vote)
billmy67 wrote:
Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
I won't speak for everyone but I'm pretty sure most in this thread are aware of any bore misalignment. A floating holder isn't going to have any advantage over a rigid unless you are not taking steps to deal with it first.Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
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LongRiflesInc
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/04/2016 Last edited 11/04/2016 by LongRiflesInc
(1 vote)
billmy67 wrote:
Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
Not to muddy the water....but you are all assuming that the bore of the barrel runs perfectly straight down the center of the blank. Due to variations in the hardness of steels long hole drilling is not an exact science. It there is any variation in the placement of the bore...you will have variation in the diameter of your chamber. A floating reamer will not eliminate this...but the variance will certianly be less than using a rigid reamer holder.
I will take that bet.
One. "Stiction". Ever heard of it? Motorcycle guys have. It has to do with the front suspension of a bike due to drag from things like fork seals and whatnot. What the hell does that have to do with guns and reams? Grease your palms with the slimiest stuff you can source. push them together, then slide them across one another. Feel that initial force you have to overcome? Stiction. Now imagine the load imparted onto a tool as it chambers and the "floating whatever it is" inside the tool holder. You have the same exact thing only in this scenario you are not directing the tool at a right angle to it's axis. You are depending on the nose of the tool to steer the ass end. Good luck with that... Claiming this works is along the same mindset that claiming a tap with a hole down the middle of it will machine threads on center every time regardless of location problems. (ie: blueprinting actions with mandrels and taps)
So the question further begs with just how much actual float is actually taking place? That said, how well does the tool manage torsion? That is the real killer of barrels and tooling.
Having chambered literally thousands of barrels using rigid reamer setups I can promise you this type of dialog is the product of internet hyperactivity( in desperate need of an inhaler.) Until someone else does it for thousands of barrels and comes up with conclusive contradictive data, I'll stick with the experience I've acquired from doing it for almost a decade. I shitcanned floating reamer holders because they suck balls. Get the setup right, and the clouds will part so that the heavens shine down on you once you hold onto a tool rigidly.
I shit you not.
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RAVAGE88XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
11/05/2016
^^^^What RP and LRI said....
MB
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birddogsx3XSergeant
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Re: Reamer Holder
12/16/2016
Moving this one back up top as it has been one of the most helpful and insightful post for me. I just started plumbing my own shit and after trying both methods I was far more successful with a rigid set up. Definitely takes a little more time and money up front but worth it to me. I am not in it to turn a profit so time is on my side. A huge thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Especially Mr. Dixon I copied your process for the rigid set up and it was spot on.
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LongRiflesInc
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Re: Reamer Holder
12/19/2016
birddogsx3 wrote:
Moving this one back up top as it has been one of the most helpful and insightful post for me. I just started plumbing my own shit and after trying both methods I was far more successful with a rigid set up. Definitely takes a little more time and money up front but worth it to me. I am not in it to turn a profit so time is on my side. A huge thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Especially Mr. Dixon I copied your process for the rigid set up and it was spot on.
Moving this one back up top as it has been one of the most helpful and insightful post for me. I just started plumbing my own shit and after trying both methods I was far more successful with a rigid set up. Definitely takes a little more time and money up front but worth it to me. I am not in it to turn a profit so time is on my side. A huge thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Especially Mr. Dixon I copied your process for the rigid set up and it was spot on.
Cool, glad it worked. Less tools, less potential for error.
