Fieldcraft Recoil off bipod

M

m1a convert

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Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2003
287
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Idaho Falls
#1
I shot off a bipod for the 1st time today. (In the past I have shot off of bags) I noticed that when the rifle recoiled it would come back and jump over to the left at the same time, so in looking through the scope after the shot the scope would be pointed to the left of the target far enough I that the target was outside the FOV.

Is this do to a fundamental error in how I am shooting or the bipod or a combination?
 
#2
Re: Recoil off bipod

i get that too, this is the first rifle i've ever really had my bipod on, so I've no real experience w/ one even though I've had one for 10 yrs maybe, but what you described is exactly me experience w/ my current set up and i'm wondering whether i'm effing up on body position r if i just need a brake to cancel that out.
 
#4
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA needs to be refined.
Try the online training subscription, it's worth it. </div></div>

+1, the rifle wants to come straight back, if it does anything else NPA is off
 
#5
Re: Recoil off bipod

last w/e, on the other hand, I was shooting at picket pins at my bosses hay field. The ground was almost muddy from the rain the night before and the bipod dug in a bit. I had no movement and was able to see my hits as close as 100. maybe i need to take the cant out of the but pad. I canted it to fit my shouldeer bones better, but it might be the culprit.
 
#6
Re: Recoil off bipod

The physical reason this happens is because the rifle twists in response to the bullet being spun as it travels down the barrel.

The rifle twists counterclockwise, causing the bottom of the forend to move right. But the rifle is on a bipod, so it can't really move right (right hand bipod leg stops it). So the end result is that the rifle twists anyway, kicks off of that bipod leg, and launches itself to the left.

The effect is magnified by having a lower bipod pivot. That's why some bipods have their pivots just under the barrel.

There are various other things that will cause the effect to be reduced, but when it happens, that is the reason.

Scott

P.S. Shooting off the ruck allows the forend to rotate in place. No bipod leg to launch off of, so no jump to the left. (Sometimes simpler is better.)
 
#10
Re: Recoil off bipod

Or;

What you're experiencing is called bipod hop. It results from a number of actions and reactions, including rifling torque.

I have learned a technique that is a bit unorthodox, but works rather well once one masters it.

Mount a sling for and aft and leave it a bit slack.

Take position behind the rifle and bipod, and insert the non-trigger hand between the sling and rifle, reaching back with that hand to grasp the rifle butt/rear bag pretty much the same as normal.

Bear down with that elbow/forearm/whatever, applying the upper body's weight so it presses down against the sling. The sling should be adjusted so it's just tight enough to pull firmly upward against that weight.

This somewhat unorthodox application of weight can completely counteract bipod hop; allowing one to observe impacts, and perhaps catch portions of the trace over long yardages.

<span style="font-style: italic">I recognize that this commentary may be somewhat at odds with the adoption of the paying forum, and I don't wish to detract/subtract from that forum at all. It is not at odds with the traditioal role of this site to offer help to shooters new and old who have specific problems and questions which they raise on the open forums. I sincerely hope I have not caused any displeasure to anyone in doing what has been my accustomed role since joining this site nearly a decade ago. If I have, I will gladly alter my actions to suit</span>.

Greg
 
#12
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or;

What you're experiencing is called bipod hop. It results from a number of actions and reactions, including rifling torque.

I have learned a technique that is a bit unorthodox, but works rather well once one masters it.

Mount a sling for and aft and leave it a bit slack.

Take position behind the rifle and bipod, and insert the non-trigger hand between the sling and rifle, reaching back with that hand to grasp the rifle butt/rear bag pretty much the same as normal.

Bear down with that elbow/forearm/whatever, applying the upper body's weight so it presses down against the sling. The sling should be adjusted so it's just tight enough to pull firmly upward against that weight.

This somewhat unorthodox application of weight can completely counteract bipod hop; allowing one to observe impacts, and perhaps catch portions of the trace over long yardages.

Greg</div></div>

I bought a sling just to try this out, but never got around to it last range session. I like the idea because on certain surfaces, it is difficult to load the bipod. The disadvantage here is with the setup time, but with a Quick Cuff, you should be able to buckle up pretty quickly.
 
#13
Re: Recoil off bipod

Bullets don't torque the rifles, bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter...

In fact within a day or two I will post a compilation video and prove it.

Shooters need to start taking responsibility for their shooting and their actions during the the shot. When you learn to be objective you start to see where you, the shooter, will introduce these effects.
 
#14
Re: Recoil off bipod

When I shoot my Windrunner even with 750 grain AMax 230 grains of H50BMG running over 2700 fps the rifle does not torque and the bi pod does not hop. It pushes straight back but no torque and no hop. If anything was capable of torque it would be that.

Frank will this video be "On" or "Off" red bull?
smile.gif
 
#16
Re: Recoil off bipod

Note to the LL Video Producer: Please include the host throwing another S&B off the porch or maybe another piece of equipment you trust will take such abuse... ILMAO when I saw that. Well done. My next scope will be an S&B.

Seriously though, when I get home I am checking all my gear to see WTF was wrong because none of my rigs "pull" left or "leave" the station. Are my lands getting wore out...:)
 
#17
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brians708</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Note to the LL Video Producer: Please include the host throwing another S&B off the porch or maybe another piece of equipment you trust will take such abuse... ILMAO when I saw that. Well done. My next scope will be an S&B.

Seriously though, when I get home I am checking all my gear to see WTF was wrong because none of my rigs "pull" left or "leave" the station. Are my lands getting wore out...:)</div></div>

I throw hensoldts too and they take it fine...

the problem with your lands are, they are probably in a circle so the bullet hits all of them at the same time. Try getting lands cut so that they are only on one side, then you're rifle will pull more like everyone else.
 
#19
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stewart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was always under the belief that "bipod hop" was caused by the gravitational pull of the moon....</div></div>

That is "lunar-drift"... totally different animal...
 
#20
Re: Recoil off bipod

Lowlight, I never have straight out called bs on you but, torque of a rifle happens, so does spin drift, coralis effect, and a number of other things. Why you teach they don't? Why not teach they are so little they can't be used as an excuse for a miss. Everytime I can find myself or my misjudgment of enviroment to cause a miss.

I thought cooking rounds caused misses at longer range. I tested it at 700 yards on a 5 inch rock. Hit it with out cooking rnds and with cooking them in a hot chamber for 1 min, same scope adjustments. The chrony says it changes muzzle velocity, but not enough it missed the rock.

Stuff happens, it simply is not a big deal. The wind, now I do believe that is a big deal.
 
#21
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight, I never have straight out called bs on you but, torque of a rifle happens, so does spin drift, coralis effect, and a number of other things. Why you teach they don't? Why not teach they are so little they can't be used as an excuse for a miss. Everytime I can find myself or my misjudgment of enviroment to cause a miss.

I thought cooking rounds caused misses at longer range. I tested it at 700 yards on a 5 inch rock. Hit it with out cooking rnds and with cooking them in a hot chamber for 1 min, same scope adjustments. The chrony says it changes muzzle velocity, but not enough it missed the rock.

Stuff happens, it simply is not a big deal. The wind, now I do believe that is a big deal. </div></div>

You have no clue what we teach, and you obviously have not been listening, or at least have a hard time reading.
 
#23
Re: Recoil off bipod

LL, I don't subscribe to your classes and have no real idea what you teach. What you say is that these things are not there. I disagree.

I believe your classes would be great to take and subscribe to. You have tons of knowledge and experience to give that obviously works very well, no doubt there. I could learn tons from you.

I am the kind of prick that points out little shit that people try to say isn't there because it is easier that way.

427cobra, was that pointed to me or LL. Eaither way I believe I will try your experiment and see what happens. Maybe video it.
 
#24
Re: Recoil off bipod

Now that I have gotten away from YOUPORN long enough I see M1A's Q is still not answered completely.

Dude, the Bipod probably gave you a false sense of NPA..... Unless you are going to be in Kingsville in the near future, play with changing it up (NPA) and send a few. When she stays straight and true after a shot you have found your NPA (not to be confused with Natural Peter Aim)

Also, quit baking your rounds it's not FDA approved.
 
#25
Re: Recoil off bipod

I think that the torque that many people "feel" or see may be due to a particular design of a "semi-auto" that has a locking, unlocking design that imparts rotation in the unlocking ejecting cycle. just a thought.
 
#26
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL, I don't subscribe to your classes and have no real idea what you teach. What you say is that these things are not there. I disagree.

I believe your classes would be great to take and subscribe to. You have tons of knowledge and experience to give that obviously works very well, no doubt there. I could learn tons from you.

I am the kind of prick that points out little shit that people try to say isn't there because it is easier that way.

427cobra, was that pointed to me or LL. Eaither way I believe I will try your experiment and see what happens. Maybe video it.

</div></div>

Bullshit,

point to one line where I said Spindrift, Coriolis or a lot of these other things "Don't Exist"... I haven't said that, I said a lot of these "other things" are shooter induced, and I have said the first two are noise...but do exist.

so go back to shooting rocks and stop putting words in my mouth because you're clueless as you admitted.

I also subscribe to physics and the idea of equal and opposite actions and reactions.

So, go be a prick somewhere else cause you're not representing my words at all.
 
#27
Re: Recoil off bipod

MGD;

I regret that I don't do pictures very well; that's why I try to make my descriptions as clear and simple as possible.

...and right now, I'm beginning to regret getting involved in this thread at all. I don't want to be associated with Internet Shit Storms, and I absolutely do not want to be any aggravation to the management when they are not doing anything to hammer me into any corners. When one considers the positive consequences the presence of the paid forum has had on this web site's continuing existence, I would simply suggest that anyone who's disparaging that forum is at least slightly internet suicidal. If I am significantly offbase here, I would greatly appreciate a PM advising me of a better approach.

Not seeing what's being taught, I can't comment on the teaching, but I can say that LL knows his oats, and if he says the problem is being caused by poor technique, I'm gonna believe him.

Rather than address causes, whatever they may be, my suggestion regards one of many approaches suggesting how to resolve it, but as LL appears to be saying, the best way to deal with a problem is to eliminate the cause.

When in doubt, take his answers over mine.

Greg
 
#30
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot off a bipod for the 1st time today. (In the past I have shot off of bags) I noticed that when the rifle recoiled it would come back and jump over to the left at the same time, so in looking through the scope after the shot the scope would be pointed to the left of the target far enough I that the target was outside the FOV.

Is this do to a fundamental error in how I am shooting or the bipod or a combination? </div></div>

The recoil impulse is linear so the rifle <span style="text-decoration: underline">wants</span> to move straight back opposite the path of the bullet. If the target's not at your natural point of aim you've introduced an angular moment into the equation with the muscular tension you use to hold your sight on target; the sideways motion of your muzzle during recoil is the "equal and opposite" part of that equation. What really drove this home for me was intentionally moving off of the NPA and watching the reaction of the muzzle during recoil. If you pre-load your bipod with a little forward pressure (obviously not enough to make the legs slip forward on the surface you're shooting from) you've just put some money in the bank with regard to giving the recoil impulse something to react against. This is an oversimplification, but if the recoil is expressed as 2X and you put 1X of load on the bipod, that means that the felt recoil is only 1X as well. Put it all together and your rifle will tell you when you're doing it right.

Now comes the really cool part. I really struggled to figure this stuff out on my own until I came across the SH online training. Hands down, far and away the best investment you're likely to ever make in developing your shooting skills.
 
#31
Re: Recoil off bipod

It's quite simple. Get some practice rounds, and use them instead of hanging out on the comp looking at porn. Dry fire at a small target, itty bitty, and practice your Natural Point of Aim, Position, Trigger Squeeze and and the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.
Everytime you shoot, shoot from your bipod. Use your sling(TIS, Military 1907, or one of the others that are made for Precision Shooting) to stabilize your position and NPA. When you can hold on a itty bitty target, take it to the range, and shoot 5mm dots on a 1" grid. Practice, Practice, Practice. If your rifle doesn't recoil straight back, and recover back onto the target, you are doing something wrong
 
#33
Re: Recoil off bipod

way to back down and minimize damage greg! what ever you do, NEVER disagree with the imortals found here in cyberland. regardless if they were never slotted or school trained snipers. the gods get nasty if you should go against the all mighty!
BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE!!!
 
#34
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">way to back down and minimize damage greg! what ever you do, NEVER disagree with the imortals found here in cyberland. regardless if they were never slotted or school trained snipers. the gods get nasty if you should go against the all mighty!
BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE!!!</div></div>

I was school trained and slotted, with a CAR in that slot, who exactly are you talking about... ?
 
#35
Re: Recoil off bipod

For what it's worth, when I showed up at RO, my rifle flew up in the air and landed 2 inches to the left every time I fired.

When I left RO, my muzzle hardly moved when I fired.

Same rifle, different position behind the gun. It was LL himself that showed me that proper alignment is key to recoil mgmt.
 
#36
Re: Recoil off bipod

Get straight behind the rifle, preload the bipod and do not remove the preload when you pull the rifle into your shoulder.

My 308 used to jump off target every time before I started listening to Frank's (Lowlight's) advice. Now it goes nowhere when I do my part right. Watch my muzzle on these two shots (308, 168's going 2725fps, bipod on gravel):
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mHmaAJuEYdI"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mHmaAJuEYdI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

I'm not blowing my horn here, I was just amazed when I saw the video. I had just started to get straight behind the rifle.....
 
#37
Re: Recoil off bipod

OK, I tried. I feel like I just walked into the middle of a Mexican standoff.

I'm trying to figure out how to defuse the situation...

Maybe if I drop trou...

(BTW, I happen to know that LL was a slotted SS for both USMC and US Army)

This topic needs to get back on topic and like right now.

Geeze Louise, here I am all jetlagged from staying up last night to be there when my Granddaugter Kayce Anne was born and here I am this AM trudging through No Man's Land...; the middle thereof...

Get a grip, folks...

Greg
 
#38
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Geeze Louise, here I am all jetlagged from staying up last night to be there when my Granddaugter Kayce Anne was born </div></div>

Congrats Greg! Forget about these fools and go enjoy your granddaughter, damnit! You've got nothing to prove to anyone here and if this thread should happen to die off before you return I'm sure there will be another one you can participate in waiting for you.
laugh.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,

I'm very interested in seeing your video.
Will you be putting a link to it here or will it only be in the Rifles Only online training section?

P.S.
Nice write up on the Zeiss Spotter 60! </div></div>

Dude, your handle is 'Dr' Phil, you're interested in a $4k spotter, but you've just got to know if LL is gonna hand out his content for free? Just pay the $10 and go watch the video if you really care. Seriously, we're talking about a trip to starbucks here.
 
#39
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Dude, your handle is 'Dr' Phil, you're interested in a $4k spotter, but you've just got to know if LL is gonna hand out his content for free? Just pay the $10 and go watch the video if you really care. Seriously, we're talking about a trip to starbucks here.
</div></div>
It's not the money Ratbert.
I would gladly put down the coin to see the wealth of knowledge in that thread.

The issue is PayPal.
I can't stand their buisness practices and choose not to give them my buisness.
(When a money order sent via usps is twice as fast as an online payment that imediately comes out of your checking account,
there is something wrong with that picture.)
I don't blame Frank or anyone else though.
The site is configured to use PayPal for payment functions and I understand.

Who knows, if things look two good to resist, I may relent and take it one more time from PayPal.
eek.gif
 
#41
Re: Recoil off bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ares</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still noone here told me, how can I load the bipod, when stepped legs can rotate around its axis, so it moves forward
frown.gif
</div></div>

Uh......re-read Greg's post.....he gave a great tip about using a sling. This might help you if you have a problem with your bi-pod legs.
 
#43
Re: Recoil off bipod

In competitions here we are not allowed to use sling.

When shooting from hard surface, like concrete or even carpet on concrete, I should be not too hard to start the bipod slide. I tryed allmost everything, but my rifle still hops
 
#45
Re: Recoil off bipod

So I have to shoot more and more and more
smile.gif


All videos I can see showed hard loading (how it looked like) bipod which stayed on place. So I thought that rotating and moving forward is problem, when I am not too hard on rifle
 
#46
Re: Recoil off bipod

The video is not up yet, it is going to take a 1/2 hour to render than I have to load it to YouTube.

Shooting more is not the answer, shooting correctly is... I bet you are off to one side slightly more than the other, you have an angle in your body, as well you are probably shouldering the rifle not loading it.. but pushing or even pulling back into the pocket which is right, but yet wrong.

There is a lot and it is 100% explained in the online training but I am putting a short 5minute video showing those advocating stuff that isn't correct what it looks like when you do it right.
 
#47
Re: Recoil off bipod

Okay, so here I have said, *Bipods don't Hop* and there are some out there "calling" bullshit, advocating using Pod Claws to combat this, Slings to pull the stock down to prevent hop, a host of things. Well everything but changing the way you shoot.

Now, this video is for demonstration purposes only and a couple segments are from the Sniper's Hide Online Training, but they are only segments to show the effects, not how to do it. In this post its not my job to show you how, we have a program for that.

There has been a host of responses to, what people call our "Technique" again people calling it bullshit, people, self described know it alls who can't shoot worth a shit going on other forums to tell anyone who will listen how what we are saying is bullshit, but then again, never "showing you "How" they do it, only that the methods taught 30 years ago are so tried and true that they are beyond question and that we couldn't possibly be correct. Well I submit in video, one of a dozen in which we shoot in public in front of crowds and don't make fools of ourselves like they do.

So, here is the video, take away from it what you will, I will state up front my commentary about the bipod not moving it incorrect, it moves just in a straight line and returns to the target. The bipod doesn't hop and we aren't using anything non-standard or modified in any way. We are shooting on grass, without digging the bipod into the ground, we are shooting on a 10X10 wooden plank on a wooden deck, and you can see the rifle recoiling in a straight line. 308's with 22" barrels, both rifles...

So, without anymore lip...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sqFH0A7Py1Q"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sqFH0A7Py1Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

<span style="font-style: italic">ps... greg nothing was directed against you just wanted to put that out there, its for some others who are running their mouths.</span>
 
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