Recoil operated guns

[Natty Bumpo]

I know that among semi-auto shotguns, there are a number of models that cycle the action using recoil energy. I don't like to sound like an idiot, but why isn't this done with rifles?

I'm guessing it's a reliability issue. I know, for example, that many Benelli shotguns are recoil operated, but their M4 (used by the Marine Corps) is a gas operated gun. Or maybe the 5.56NATO doesn't have enough recoil to function 100%.

Or perhaps recoil operated firearms don't handle the pressures of rifle cartridges or can't be made as accurate and precise. I'm just thinking out loud here.

 

[idahoshooter]

Re: Recoil operated guns

Go check out a 10/22, I am sure there are others. As for why its not done, probably reliability as you stated, or safety, Id like to hear as well.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Recoil operated guns

I am not a weapons designer by and means, so don't take this as gospel.

If you notice most of the "blowback" rifles are pistol cartridge or equivalent. When you get into high power rifles there needs to be a delay in the firing and the extraction to allow the pressure levels to drop. This can be seen in rifles that have timing issues due to poor gas port location or diameter. They try to rip the rim off the case.

Offhand I can't think of any blowback operated high power rifles. They may be out there, I just can't think of any.

 

[idahoshooter]

Re: Recoil operated guns

Maybe this guy?

http://www.travel-golf.org/images/terget_rifle_223_volquartsen.jpg

Or is there an op rod or gas tube in there somewhere?

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Recoil operated guns

Probably the closest thing actually in use is the Cetme/HK delayed roller actions. Basically a delayed blow back. No DI or piston gas system.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Recoil operated guns

The Voltquartsen is gas operated per their website https://www.volquartsen.com/products/1053-evolution Like to see how that system works though.

 

[Kelly The Lionfish Hunter]

Re: Recoil operated guns

Benelli makes the R1 which is a rifle, whos action was based on the M4's. I have one in .300 Win Mag and the reciol reduction is damned good. I'm not sure about the potential accuracy of it yet but it's eaten everything I've fed it so far. The worst thing about it, that I've found so far, is that if I load polymer tips, like Hornady's, the recoil cause the polymer tip to flatten out in the mag so every shot fires a slightly more deformed tip each time. It's nice but I'm not totally thrilled about the gun so far because I can't shoot what I think will be the most accurate store bought ammo unless I load it one round at a time. I think it's time for an R1 to be put up for sale, lol.

 

[Pat M]

Re: Recoil operated guns

The M82 is a recoil operated, short barrel stroke, semi-automatic firearm.When gun is fired, barrel initially recoils for a short distance (about an inch- 25 mm) being securely locked by the rotating bolt. After the short travel a post on the bolt, engaged in the curved cam track in the receiver, turns bolt to unlock it from the barrel. As soon as the bolt unlocks, the accelerator arm strikes it back,transferring some part of the recoil energy of the barrel to the bolt to achieve the reliable cycling. Then barrel is stopped and the bolt continues back, to extract and eject a spent case. On its return stroke bolt strips the fresh cartridge from the box magazine and feeds it into the chamber and finally locks itself to the barrel. The striker also is cocked on the return stroke of the bolt.

 

[Massoud]

Re: Recoil operated guns

There's two types of operation in discussion here. Recoil operation and blowback operation. Probably the most prominent recoil operated weapon is the M2 .50 cal. It uses short recoil operation (as opposed to long recoil). In both, the barrel and bolt stay locked together until residual pressures in the chamber/bore subside to safe levels. The barrel/bolt recoil reward from the force of the cartridge ignition.

Blowback operation is what a 10/22 uses. A heavy (relatively) mass holds the breech closed long enough for pressures to drop, but this mass is not locked to anything, it's only held against the barrel by a spring and inertia. This is not safe for high pressures rounds. I saw a calculation one time for the mass required to have a 5.56 with blowback operation, it was like 30 pounds or something.

HK's roller delay is not a simple blowback like a 10/22, as it's name implies it uses rollers which have to move against recesses in the receiver to delay extraction of the round.

ETA: looks like we were typing at the same time


Justin

 

[boltstop]

Re: Recoil operated guns

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably the closest thing actually in use is the Cetme/HK delayed roller actions. Basically a delayed blow back. No DI or piston gas system.</div></div>

This, and it works like a charm. Don't know why it isn't used more often.