Gunsmithing Recommended tooling for barrel work

[Red_SC]

So, I have this brand-new-to-me Southbend Fourteen, and am about ready to start making some practice chips. Before I start ordering cutting tools, is there anything in particular you've found to work well? As an example, this guy lists what he uses, but I'd think he's paying a premium to get them from Brownells over a similar tool from MSC or Enco.

Chambering a Rifle Barrel | Rifleshooter.com



And since everyone likes pictures:

 

[MikeeBooshay]

As you are just starting out, look at the Warner HS inserts, they also have a selection of holders you will need. Looks like you already have an Aloris/Dorian type post, that's a plus.

I buy a lot of stuff at MSCDirect.com, in person, I usually go to CW Rod, or Rex Tool Supply in Houston. South Carolina should have no shortage of local supply houses, make a relationship with one, sometimes pay a bit extra, and get the extra information that can really help.

Quick story here - used to hire lots of young engineers, all full of piss and vinegar, ready to take on the world right out of school. I gave them the same speech - "in this job, you will have to work with vendors, all of which know more about their little slice of technology than you do. Form some relationships, keep them honest, ask questions, these are the guys that WILL save your ass one night. Beating them out of 10% on some order, is not worth not having their help, because you treated them like a rented commodity." Same thing applies here - yes, you can internet shop, buy only on price, but don't expect to benefit from the lessons others have learned, because you didn't pay that price, you wanted a discount instead.

So tell, us about that lathe - how long is it thru the headstock, without the chuck? Can you thread a 16" barrel thru it?

 

[chipsfan]

So, I have this brand-new-to-me Southbend Fourteen, and am about ready to start making some practice chips. Before I start ordering cutting tools, is there anything in particular you've found to work well? As an example, this guy lists what he uses, but I'd think he's paying a premium to get them from Brownells over a similar tool from MSC or Enco.

Chambering a Rifle Barrel | Rifleshooter.com



And since everyone likes pictures:

Hi,

He seems to be using the Arthur Warner HSS tools that Brownells sells. They are the same price from both except you can return them forever from Brownells. I ordered mine from Brownells and they work great on chrome moly and stainless barrels.

I'll add I am only a machinist in the basement gunsmith sense- so take that into account.

 

[Red_SC]

It did come with some tool holders, some Aloris and some Chinese.

The headstock is longer than ideal, 22". I'll have to use a different method for short barrels. I just powered it up for the first time, it seems to run very smoothly- I had it inspected before I bought it, but it wasn't under power when I picked it up.

Thanks for the vendor advice, I've been looking for somewhere local to buy tooling but haven't found it yet. I don't mind paying a little more to support a local business. I'm pretty sure my dad orders all his tooling.

 

[ridgeway]

Local? AR Warner Tool is local to me...15 min away! I get no discounts, but if paying with cash, sales tax is omitted.

 

[Bob Pastor]

Local? AR Warner Tool is local to me...15 min away! I get no discounts, but if paying with cash, sales tax is omitted.

If you call The Arthur R. Warner Co. at 1-724-539-9229 and ask for Joyce, tell her The Viper sent you and if you purchase 4 or more kits ask for the Show Discount.

 

[chipsfan]

If you call The Arthur R. Warner Co. at 1-724-539-9229 and ask for Joyce, tell her The Viper sent you and if you purchase 4 or more kits ask for the Show Discount.

That is a great tip- thank you

 

[ridgeway]

If you call The Arthur R. Warner Co. at 1-724-539-9229 and ask for Joyce, tell her The Viper sent you and if you purchase 4 or more kits ask for the Show Discount.

Thanks Bob...good to know. I've been down there a few times. I have their 1/2 threading tool and a few inserts for my turning tool bit holders. I've been using your Venom oil and it works great!

 

[sortafast]

If you really just want to try stuff, go get some HSS blanks and grind your own bits. I go through and buy a few and always have 5-6 blanks on hand. Never know when they will come in handy. Plus being able to grind your own bits can save your bacon if you break your last insert at 6pm on a friday and you have project you want to get done to take out on saturday. Also, when cutting aluminum its really nice to be able to make them razor sharp with the proper geometry to cut well or if you need to cut some delrin you can get a glass like finish with out having to try, where as most carbide inserts for steel suck in both Aluminum and plastic.

That said, insert tooling is nice. Carbide will outlast HSS by quite aways. And it looks like you have a couple good holders there. The trick is figuring out what inserts for what material. I took a free course and got a nice book from sandvik about metal cutting technology and a bunch of fancy business on tool geometry etc. Was really helpful. Here is a link to it. Its quite helpful, even if it is heavily biased to their stuff (shocking, I know). Shars has some ok imported stuff. Good bang for you buck if you are on a budget. I would steer clear of MSC and Enco. I have always gotten better prices on comparable if not the same tooling from local vendors. I may pay slightly more going with the local guy, but I can hop over there in about 30min and have it same day.

2 more things: DRO's are worth their weight in Myrrh. Speed things up a ton. If you can swing it, get one. 2nd, get a copy of the Machinery's Handbook if you don't have one already. Invaluable, especially the chapter about deciphering the Alphanumerics of insert codes.

 

[Red_SC]

If you really just want to try stuff, go get some HSS blanks and grind your own bits. I go through and buy a few and always have 5-6 blanks on hand. Never know when they will come in handy. Plus being able to grind your own bits can save your bacon if you break your last insert at 6pm on a friday and you have project you want to get done to take out on saturday. Also, when cutting aluminum its really nice to be able to make them razor sharp with the proper geometry to cut well or if you need to cut some delrin you can get a glass like finish with out having to try, where as most carbide inserts for steel suck in both Aluminum and plastic.

That said, insert tooling is nice. Carbide will outlast HSS by quite aways. And it looks like you have a couple good holders there. The trick is figuring out what inserts for what material. I took a free course and got a nice book from sandvik about metal cutting technology and a bunch of fancy business on tool geometry etc. Was really helpful. Here is a link to it. Its quite helpful, even if it is heavily biased to their stuff (shocking, I know). Shars has some ok imported stuff. Good bang for you buck if you are on a budget. I would steer clear of MSC and Enco. I have always gotten better prices on comparable if not the same tooling from local vendors. I may pay slightly more going with the local guy, but I can hop over there in about 30min and have it same day.

2 more things: DRO's are worth their weight in Myrrh. Speed things up a ton. If you can swing it, get one. 2nd, get a copy of the Machinery's Handbook if you don't have one already. Invaluable, especially the chapter about deciphering the Alphanumerics of insert codes.

Excellent, thank you.

I do plan to try grinding some tooling, but I think I'm going to buy some insert tooling to start with. I've been doing some reading about HSS geometry.

I did get a DRO with the milling machine, but I'm going to have to buy one for the lathe. Definitely on my list.

I got a couple books, I'll look that one up. This is the one I'm reading right now:

 

[chipsfan]

If you really just want to try stuff, go get some HSS blanks and grind your own bits. I go through and buy a few and always have 5-6 blanks on hand. Never know when they will come in handy. Plus being able to grind your own bits can save your bacon if you break your last insert at 6pm on a friday and you have project you want to get done to take out on saturday. Also, when cutting aluminum its really nice to be able to make them razor sharp with the proper geometry to cut well or if you need to cut some delrin you can get a glass like finish with out having to try, where as most carbide inserts for steel suck in both Aluminum and plastic.

That said, insert tooling is nice. Carbide will outlast HSS by quite aways. And it looks like you have a couple good holders there. The trick is figuring out what inserts for what material. I took a free course and got a nice book from sandvik about metal cutting technology and a bunch of fancy business on tool geometry etc. Was really helpful. Here is a link to it. Its quite helpful, even if it is heavily biased to their stuff (shocking, I know). Shars has some ok imported stuff. Good bang for you buck if you are on a budget. I would steer clear of MSC and Enco. I have always gotten better prices on comparable if not the same tooling from local vendors. I may pay slightly more going with the local guy, but I can hop over there in about 30min and have it same day.

2 more things: DRO's are worth their weight in Myrrh. Speed things up a ton. If you can swing it, get one. 2nd, get a copy of the Machinery's Handbook if you don't have one already. Invaluable, especially the chapter about deciphering the Alphanumerics of insert codes.

I second the DRO recommendation, I ordered mine for DRO Pros. It was inexpensive and works great.

http://www.dropros.com/

 

[Red_SC]

As you are just starting out, look at the Warner HS inserts, they also have a selection of holders you will need. Looks like you already have an Aloris/Dorian type post, that's a plus.

One question- why do you recommend HSS inserts over carbide?

 

[Clark]

To answer the original question about tooling:
1) Make it yourself
2) CDCO, cheap, with low selection
3) ENCO, more expensive, with bigger selection
4) MSC, still more expensive the the same thing, but the biggest selection
5) Granger, hardly ever use them, they carry gear my wife has designed and other stuff my cousin has designed.
6) McMaster Carr, hardly ever use them, but lots of machinists won't shut up about them.
7) Ebay, constantly buying used tooling there.
8) Brownells, the gunsmith discount is not that big for tools.
9) Midway sells some stuff now.
10) Amazon sells stuff, prices are good, descriptions can be sketchy

For grinding lathe tools from HSS bars, the Chinese clone of this American end wheel grinder is what you want:
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

Try to get one on sale from someone ~~$250
Buy Grinder Straight-Cutting Tool & Carbide Grinding Fixtures (891-8106) from UseEnco

For Mausers, this his how to grind the 55 degree bit.

 

[sortafast]

One question- why do you recommend HSS inserts over carbide?

typically with HSS inserts you can get it sharper than carbide, and it is also a lot tougher and more durable against shock loads. Basically its more forgiving. And for most low-ish speed lathe work, HSS works just fine. But having a diversified portfolio of cutting tools is never a bad thing. A little bit of everything and you will never be want for when you are in need.

 

[hero's machine]

carbide rules until you break a rule.....then it breaks. if you stop in mid cut with carbide or forget to back out of a cut.....throw it away. if you have a tool dig in and the lathe flexes......throw it a way. HSS is way more forgiving and you can use it at speeds where you might be able to stop the lathe before it kills you. carbide has its place, but IMO....not till you have the skills to respect its nuances without thinking about it.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

One question- why do you recommend HSS inserts over carbide?

For most people and machines, it's easier to get a good finish with HSS, especially threading. If you aren't comfortable threading at the higher RPM carbide works better at, the HSS will make it easier to get a good finish. It is just easier for most people to start with.

Understand I am talking about HSS inserts, not grinding HSS blanks, that takes a bit of time to learn and practice, but still a very handy thing, when you need a tool to do a particular job.

I crown with a HSS tool I ground, didn't get what I wanted with inserts, wanted more relief under the edge. Easy with a blank.

 

[sortafast]

For most people and machines, it's easier to get a good finish with HSS, especially threading. If you aren't comfortable threading at the higher RPM carbide works better at, the HSS will make it easier to get a good finish. It is just easier for most people to start with.

Understand I am talking about HSS inserts, not grinding HSS blanks, that takes a bit of time to learn and practice, but still a very handy thing, when you need a tool to do a particular job.

I crown with a HSS tool I ground, didn't get what I wanted with inserts, wanted more relief under the edge. Easy with a blank.

yep. And you can't beat HSS for plastics. I had to grind some bits for a job cutting urethane. That took some trial and error. Total pain to cut that stuff. But all tooling has its place. Its figuring it all out that gets tricky. And the trial and error approach isn't the most cost effective way to tackle it.

 

[Red_SC]

Between stand-up and lay-down insert threading tools, is there any reason to choose one over another? Lay-down look easier to sharpen, but does one produce a better finish? More flexibility? Other advantages I'm overlooking?

Arthur R. Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel - Kit #18 1/2 inch Threader NV

Arthur R. Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel - Kit #20 1/2 inch Threader (T) Laydown

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I use kit 18 for almost all my threading. I prefer it to lay down inserts. I think it's a stiffer insert than the lay down. I could be wrong but it seems that way. I get great results with that tool.

 

[Red_SC]

That's the one I was planning to get until I saw the laydown kit. A couple smiths in the Lapping Action Threads topic preferred laydown inserts, but they were using carbide. I wanted to make sure before I ordered the wrong one.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

One thing I that I thought of reading this today - get a thread file. Very fast easy cheap effective way to clean up,deburr tenon threads, BEFORE screwing that pristine stainless action on it. Couple minutes with that thing will save you much grief one day.

I use the square ones with eight different pitch counts on them.

 

[JJones75]

While you can grind carbide to get the perfect geometry for your need its not easy and if the carbide is coated that defeated its purpose.
I use more of the stand up triangle inserts or top notch style for threading at work but if I get to cut threads as small as 16tpi I'm lucky so they are better for that. I do have some laydowns that I use for smaller stuff on a smallerm machine and I think that is perfect for gunsmithing.
For someone new to machining HSS will save you A LOT of money on broke inserts and ruined parts. Cutting threads with carbide at 300+rpm gives a better finish initially but if your shit ain't together you get get in touble FAST. Also razor sharp HSS if far and away easier to make very light cuts with and maintain a nice finish when sneeking up on specific dimensions , generally when I cut finer threads or tight fitting threads I use HSS and only need to buff them with a diamond lap to break the ridge and then grey scotch bright.
It is very easy to get as much money tied up in tooling as the machies cost , just buy a little when you can

 

[Red_SC]

It is very easy to get as much money tied up in tooling as the machies cost , just buy a little when you can

You can say that again!

 

[Gene Poole]

I use carbide for threading and get excellent results. I just did this piece earlier tonight as a mandrel for a R700 bolt truing jig. It's 1/2 13 tpi. I didn't have a full profile insert (13 is kinda oddball) so I used a cheap import partial profile insert. I usually run carbide faster, but I ran this piece at 75 RPM (because 13 tpi sneaks up on you pretty fast) with Viper's Venom cutting oil.

Toolholder and insert are from Shars:

shars.com - 58quot x 58quot Indexable Cutting Tool Universal External Threading Tool Holder
shars.com - External V Partial Profile AG60 Carbide Threading Insert