Redding Bushing Dies

[Brandon05_88]

I've been thinking about stepping up to Redding's Bushing Dies to help with runout. I've been seeing from 0.002" to 0.006" on my last batch. I'm going to full length resize. My question is...is it better to FL with the bushing die or do it in 2 steps with a bushing neck die and a body die? I'm probably going to have to use 2 bushings to step it down in increments because of a factory chamber. I'm using Lapua brass in a plain jane .243. What are the pro's and con's of each method? Thanks.

 

[CACTUS]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

If it's a bolt gun Neck it only and go! Make sure not to bump the shoulder

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Yes, it's a bolt gun...Rem 700. I've tried the neck size only route with regular Redding dies and didn't care much for it. Now, I use the regular Redding FL die. I'm just curious as to which would be better for my case.

 

[CACTUS]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's a bolt gun...Rem 700. I've tried the neck size only route with regular Redding dies and didn't care much for it. Now, I use the regular Redding FL die. I'm just curious as to which would be better for my case. </div></div>

Neck only is the best for your case! The more you work your brass the sooner it will split!

 

[remr5]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Hi, not to argue but from what I have read on this sight and from talking with the tecs at Sinclair; I went with the Redding S match two die set. I bump the shoulder about 1 to 2 thousandths and use the bushing for the neck all in one step. I conduct this operation in a Lee Cast single stage press.

I do this because some of my fired cases were hard to chamber so I elected to bump them a little bit. I am very happy with the dies set and the results I have obtained. I'm new to rifle reloading so I have read hours and hours of opinions which can be all over the place.

IMHO bumping the shoulder 1 or 2 thousandths will not over work your brass but it will ensure the brass will chamber on a hot day when things heat up and the cartridge cases expand as well as the gun. I base this on all of the data I have collected as well as my own experiences with brass that did not want to chamber without being bumped.

Good Luck

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

I use a Forster bump die. It takes a bushing so you can set the amount of sizing and can be set to bump the shoulder as well.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Most splits happen in the neck area.
Makes no diff. if you f/l or n/s you are still working the neck. The neck WILL work harden.
I f/l size(tight, .308 match chamber)and my run out T.I.R. is 0-.002" at most using Redding dies on my Dillon 550.
Respectfully,
LG

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

I am currently bumping the shoulder 0.002" each time I FL size. I just annealed the brass after its 4th firing. I'll continue to anneal every 3rd firing to try extend the brass life and prevent neck splitting.

I just measured the necks from a fired and sized case. I'm moving the neck 0.007" after it's sized. I am going to step the next down in 2 steps.

Here's what has me confused, say I use the FL bushing die to size the neck twice with the 2 different bushings (while bumping the shoulder 0.002" only once). This should help runout compared to the regular dies, but is it sizing the body of the brass too much from both sizing steps? Would it be easier (on the brass) to use a bushing neck sizer for the 2 neck sizing steps and a body bump die to push the shoulder back?

It really boils down to 2 steps with a FL bushing die and 3 steps with the NK bushing and body die.

 

[taliv]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

sorry for being dense here, but what does the bushing have to do with runout? i have some redding bushing dies and they work great for controlling neck tension. but are they better than other dies for runout? just my opinion but the sleeve they and the forster dies have helps with runout. but it's the sleeve, not the bushing

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

The bushing dies get rid of the expander ball/decapping stem on regular dies. My expander ball isn't perfectly centered in the die body. I've tried to push it to center it. No luck. I've tried rotating it until it 'looks' centered. So far, I get mixed results...0.002" to 0.006" runout. By dragging the case mouth back over the 'uncentered' expander ball, it is producing some runout.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just measured the necks from a fired and sized case. I'm moving the neck 0.007" after it's sized. I am going to step the next down in 2 steps.

Here's what has me confused, say I use the FL bushing die to size the neck twice with the 2 different bushings (while bumping the shoulder 0.002" only once). This should help runout compared to the regular dies, but is it sizing the body of the brass too much from both sizing steps? Would it be easier (on the brass) to use a bushing neck sizer for the 2 neck sizing steps and a body bump die to push the shoulder back? </div></div>

With an obturated neck diameter of only 0.007 bigger than the sized neck diameter (note NOT sized and loaded neck diameter) you might get away with single bushing sizing.

I use a body die (when needed) and a two step bushing to size down from 0.3445 to 0.332 (difference of 0.0125). I tend to get about 4 reload cycles between trips through the body die, one or two more early in the life of the brass and closer to 3 later on in the life of the brass. To tell the difference, I measure each case each time through the reload process.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been thinking about stepping up to Redding's Bushing Dies to help with runout. I've been seeing from 0.002" to 0.006" on my last batch. I'm going to full length resize. My question is...is it better to FL with the bushing die or do it in 2 steps with a bushing neck die and a body die? I'm probably going to have to use 2 bushings to step it down in increments because of a factory chamber. I'm using Lapua brass in a plain jane .243. What are the pro's and con's of each method? Thanks. </div></div>

Brandon,

I've been working with Redding Comp and Type S Match FL dies used in conjunction with each other. I found that using the Redding Competition Bushing die to make the largest jump in neck sizing first followed by the Redding Type S Match Full Length Bushing die to bump the shoulder and size the neck the last 0.003"-0.004" worked well. I figured that the Type S Match FL bushing die should be the last thing that touches the shell body to maintain concentricity. I later found a great website called the Rifleman's Journal written by German Salazar and he did extensive testing that documented and explained the things I had found in playing with my hand loading workflow. Check this article out: "Reloading Two-Step Resizing and Concentricity"

HTH!

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Mitch, my fired cases measure 0.2755", sized measure 0.2685", and loaded measure 0.270". That's a pretty good amout of neck movement during sizing. How many reload cycles do you get on a set of brass?

YAOG, thanks for that article. It was just what I was looking for! Now, I just need to order another $130 worth of dies and bushings.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mitch, my fired cases measure 0.2755", sized measure 0.2685", and loaded measure 0.270". That's a pretty good amout of neck movement during sizing. How many reload cycles do you get on a set of brass?</div></div>

Your measurements put you right on the edge for sizing in a single step.

I have a lot (100 count) of brass with 30 reload cycles on them that have never been annealed using a two step NO sizing process.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

After your first pass into the die drop your case and turn it 180* and make a second pass.
Check runout.
IF, your GTG then put THAT case back into the die and tighten the stem on the bushing. The bushing is now "locked" in place. The movement of the bushing causes the runout.
Run second case and confirm RO.
Cheers,
LG

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Mitch, now that is getting some use out of the brass! I will probably just use a single step.

Lumpy, that sounds like the method I will use. I thought you were supposed to leave the bushing with enough room to move to self-align on the neck. I guess that would work if the chamber was cut perfectly (not my Rem).

Thanks for the help everyone!

After reading some more, what is really confusing me is some people are saying to use a 270 or 271 bushing for Lapua cases in a .243......my loaded rounds measure 0.270"?

 

[YAOG]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lumpy grits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most splits happen in the neck area.
Makes no diff. if you f/l or n/s you are still working the neck. The neck WILL work harden.
I f/l size(tight, .308 match chamber)and my run out T.I.R. is 0-.002" at most using Redding dies on my Dillon 550.
Respectfully,
LG

</div></div>

Lumpy,

Hey I have my Dillon RL550B setup to reload .308Win too. It sounds crazy but having essentially four presses in one is hard to beat. I use a Redding Competition Bushing Neck die in the first position setup to decap, first neck size and prime. In the second position I have a Redding Type S Match Bushing/Full Length sizing die. In the third position I have a Redding Instant Comparator to verify the base to should DL or base to ogive height and in the last position I have a Redding Competition Bullet seater.

My loading work flow is sort of crazy but works pretty well for no turn loading. Fired brass is dumped straight into a vibe cleaner. The cleaned and inspected brass gets checked for length, if the case needs trimming I set it aside. If the case is O.K. the brass is then put into the first Dillon RL550B station where it is decapped, neck sized and primed.

Next the case goes to the second position of the Dillon RL550B and a Redding Type S Match Bushing/FL sizing die where the cases are full length sized and final neck sizing performed. Then I index the case to the Redding instant comparator for a quick check of the shoulder height. From the comparator station I pull the cases and put them into a loading block for powder charging.

I use a Hornady electronic powder dispenser. I powder charge the cases and return them to the third station (where I have setup the Redding Instant comparator for ogive measurement) and then index them to the Redding Competition Bullet seater for the appropriate projectile. From there I reverse index the loaded round back to the Redding Instant Indicator and confirm ogive height and pull the loaded round out of the press and back to the loading block to be put in a 20 round slip case or larger 100 round MTM box.

It seems like a lot of extra work but I know that every loaded round is perfectly sized for the headpsace of my rifle and the bullet will have the same jump to the lands. This means my brass will grow minimally and that the accurately and consistently scaled powder charge will produce consistent pressure due to precise case length, consistent bullet seating depth and the consistent case volume they produce. Also the case tension on the bullet is consistent as is bullet jump. All of these things make for repeatable projectile placement once you find the best node and jump for your rifle chamber and bullet.

You would be amazed at how well an off the shelf rifle can be made to shoot by hand-loading for a particular rifle.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mitch, my fired cases measure 0.2755", sized measure 0.2685", and loaded measure 0.270". That's a pretty good amout of neck movement during sizing. How many reload cycles do you get on a set of brass?

YAOG, thanks for that article. It was just what I was looking for! Now, I just need to order another $130 worth of dies and bushings. </div></div>

Brandon,

Having 0.005" of neck growth is not a problem really but you are on the edge of having to need to use 2-stage neck resizing. My tired 40 year old Remington 700 leaves the brass needing to be sized 0.009" but the 2-step neck sizing works just fine. Using these hand loading methods I can still reliably hit small targets at 1,000 yards.

Also know that you will need to buy a ball mic and probably a bushing size above and below your most likely target neck size. Borrow a ball mic before you order or buy bushings to save having to buy more of them to get to the right size. Calipers are not the right tool to reliably measure case neck thickness. Also brass thickness is somewhat variable and sometimes you will need a smaller bushing.

All brass will get thinner as you use it especially in hot load calibers so over time your brass may change you and you may find you need a smaller bushing to keep the same neck tension on your bullets. The more you use the brass the sooner it will need trimming and possibly the next smaller neck bushing.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mitch, now that is getting some use out of the brass! I will probably just use a single step.

Lumpy, that sounds like the method I will use. I thought you were supposed to leave the bushing with enough room to move to self-align on the neck. I guess that would work if the chamber was cut perfectly (not my Rem).

Thanks for the help everyone!

After reading some more, what is really confusing me is some people are saying to use a 270 or 271 bushing for Lapua cases in a .243......my loaded rounds measure 0.270"? </div></div>

Brandon,

Get a ball mic and measure YOUR case necks to be sure you don't order the wrong bushing sizes. An inexpensive ball mic is cheaper than buying several of the wrong size bushings, even the less expensive plain steel bushings! Don't go by what others are telling you, your brass may be different. You cannot rely on a standard caliper to give accurate neck thickness measurements!

HTH!

 

[coues7]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

I bump the shoulder and size all in one.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

YAOG, thanks for all the help. I'm going to get a micrometer. I didn't feel too confident in the caliper measurements anyway. I trim the brass every reload cycle. I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to having everything the same each time. I did notice that the bullets seated butter smooth this week after I annealed my cases. Do you think that after you anneal, you should use the next smallest bushing to ctreate more neck tension?

 

[knockemdown]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Same as coues above, I use a Redding Type S bushing FL die set to bump shoulder back .002" and resize the necks in one operation. Bushing size is determined by subtracting 1-2 thousandths from your average loaded round diameter. I only use bushings for neck turned brass, or straight Lapua stuff. But if I'm wildcatting to neck up/down Lapua, I'll still go ahead & turn them to a consistent dimension, just to be a stitch...

If you not are using premium (read Lapua) brass, then your neck wall thickness may need to be addressed via turning to a uniform diameter. Otherwise, your bushing is merely 'pushing' any neck diameter inconsistencies to the inside of the neck. Which in turn, will then be re-introduced upon bullet seating. Viola, inconsistent neck tension, runout, flyers, etc...

I use this gauge to check for neck diameter uniformity

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

knockemdown, I'm using Lapua brass. I've been thinking about the thought of neck turning them to 'clean em up,' but is it really worth it? I have the Sinclair concentricity gauge but don't have a way to check neck thickness. I may just fix up something to measure thickness on the concentricity gauge.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

Brandon, only an accurate gauge or mic to measure the necks can help you decide if your brass needs turning. I let my case gauge (linked above) be my guide. I only use Lapua brass in my .17 wildcat(.223), .243 and 7-08 (necked down .308) and from what I've measured, the necks are pretty darn consistent. I only turned for the .17 wildcat, since it's a semi-tight neck chamber...

In the case of my .243 I run both Lapua & Winny brass in it, so I went ahead & turned the Winny stuff to a uniform .014" (IIRC), which coincides with the average neck measurement of the Lapua stuff. With case necks being equal, I can use the same bushing for either...

If you are gonna neck turn cases, resize, trim, run 'em through an expander mandrel to 'push' the inconsistency to the outside, then turn it away...

have fun!

 

[YAOG]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon05_88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">YAOG, thanks for all the help. I'm going to get a micrometer. I didn't feel too confident in the caliper measurements anyway. I trim the brass every reload cycle. I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to having everything the same each time. I did notice that the bullets seated butter smooth this week after I annealed my cases. Do you think that after you anneal, you should use the next smallest bushing to ctreate more neck tension? </div></div>

Brandon,

I think we're all here for the same reasons and I'm happy to have helped you. I bought an inexpensive Frankford Arsenal ball mic from Midway when they were on sale for $25.00 but I think they are more like $40 now but well worth it to know for a fact what your case necks measure. Hey I'm all for having a system in place as long as it works for the reasons you think it does.

I'm a practical long range shooter and find that neck turning and trimming every time a case is fired is not needed to reliably hit a 6"-10" target at 1,000 yards but your mileage may vary. If trimming every time is working for you keep it up, even a hot .308Win is poky and low stress compared with .243. My uncle had a .243 and it shot really flat but the barrel was done in a surprisingly low round count. My .308Win round count us approaching 8K rounds and it still shoots pretty well. Or maybe I'm just getting better faster than it is degrading. 8^) I mean I do other time sucking stuff that many people would think is nuts like 2-stage neck size and check every round for shoulder DL and ogive height. Who knows what is right and what is wrong and what is just un-necessary for the wacky pursuit of flinging little rocks at distant targets?

I don't have an annealing machine and have only tried manually annealing once and don't see a reason to anneal my cases. I have loaded some cases 20 times without issue and just remove cases once they hit 11 or 12 times around. I think that for maximum case life and repeatable neck tension annealing is required but what I'm doing is working pretty well for me and I don't want to introduce another level of complexity until I think I need to.

So I cannot say one way or another what to do about bushing sizes for cases that have been recently annealed with certainty. I would try it, whatever is your normal bushing size go ahead and use it on some annealed cases and see if the case necks are measuring the same size as the bushing in use once they have been through the neck sizer. Then wait overnight to measure the case necks again to be sure they are holding the correct size. If they are the right size you are GTG. If not you may need to adjust your bushing size due to the additional spring back of the annealed cases. Sorry I can't help more, I just don't know for sure. If there was a reliable $200 machine to anneal brass cases I would be all over it though!

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Redding Bushing Dies

I figured out a way to measure necks on my sinclair concentricity gauge such as on the redding neck thickness gauge knockemdown listed above. Honestly, I haven't been able to shoot past 400 due to not having a longer range decently close by. My rounds are doing fairly well...usually 0.5 MOA for 5 shotters at 400. I'm more than likely going to quit trimming every cycle. I'm always trimming back to min spec anyway.

My 243 has 653 rounds down the tube right now. I've got 4 firings on this lot of brass (100 count lot). I'm hoping to get 1800-2000 rounds on this tube and for this lot of brass to last that long. I don't think another 11-13 reloads on these cases will be stretching it. I mean I have my bullet around 0.045" off the lands and only slinging a 95 grain bullet at 2930 fps...it should last a lil longer. Then she's going out for a true-up and re-barrel. My plan, by that point, is to have some experience with bushing die sizing, neck turning and annealing.