Are the collet/ mandrel dies worth the extra step the loading process? I was looking at the Lee Collet Die or the Sinclair Expander die. I am getting an average of .002 run out with my non neck trimmed fire formed Lapua brass. Would I be wasting time and money on these dies without neck trimming? Thanks for the input!
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Reducing Bullet Runout
- Thread starter stxhunter2013
- Start date
I don't see anything wrong with 002 of runout. You will spend a ton of time, effort and money chasing that number down. Just use a good f/l sizer. If you really feel the need, try step down sizing your necks. That might take your runout down, but it is a lot to ask to cut 002 any smaller
You do not give up much information about your current setup, reloading process or dies witch could be helpful. And that's two very different dies you mention.
Neither do you mention much about the use of your ammunition.
Also as mijp5 states 002 runout is not bad, and it will cost you a lot of time and money to cut it down.
And getting a quality FL die will go a long way, even better if honed or a bushing die.
The Sinclair Expander die and mandrels would be a waste to use money on without neck trimming, also do remember if you buy one you must use the same brand turning arbors for the neck trimmer, and not all of them can interchange with the different trimmers.
If your looking to trim cases i'd advice you to look into the 21 st century neck turning lathe as it makes turning neck a lot less pain free, while getting extremely concentric results. And the angled cutters for each common shoulder angle makes it very easy to make a proper relief cut into the neck.
If you have turned cases with hand held neck trimmers you will understand why it's a genious approach to it. Chucking a normal trimmer into a vice works, but in my experience does not give the same concentricity.
The Lee Collet dies will often reduce run out, but if your now using Bushing neck dies your loosing control over neck tension witch generally will make ES and SD increase.
The shorter range you shoot the less the ES and SD will affect your accuracy.
So it has it's pro and cons, if you just have a standard FL die it surely can't hurt trying it, but won't guarantee it works as i don't use these.
Neither do you mention much about the use of your ammunition.
Also as mijp5 states 002 runout is not bad, and it will cost you a lot of time and money to cut it down.
And getting a quality FL die will go a long way, even better if honed or a bushing die.
The Sinclair Expander die and mandrels would be a waste to use money on without neck trimming, also do remember if you buy one you must use the same brand turning arbors for the neck trimmer, and not all of them can interchange with the different trimmers.
If your looking to trim cases i'd advice you to look into the 21 st century neck turning lathe as it makes turning neck a lot less pain free, while getting extremely concentric results. And the angled cutters for each common shoulder angle makes it very easy to make a proper relief cut into the neck.
If you have turned cases with hand held neck trimmers you will understand why it's a genious approach to it. Chucking a normal trimmer into a vice works, but in my experience does not give the same concentricity.
The Lee Collet dies will often reduce run out, but if your now using Bushing neck dies your loosing control over neck tension witch generally will make ES and SD increase.
The shorter range you shoot the less the ES and SD will affect your accuracy.
So it has it's pro and cons, if you just have a standard FL die it surely can't hurt trying it, but won't guarantee it works as i don't use these.
I have used the Sinclair Expander die to get less runout by removing the ball expander and sizing the necks in a seperate operation. "BUT" if you full length resize the cartridge lays in the chamber supported by the chamber throat and the base of the case by the bolt face. Meaning minimal runout will have very little effect with bullet alignment because the case is not touching the chamber in the body or neck area of the case. Once runout causes the case neck to touch the chamber then it has a greater effect on bullet alignment.
Below the full length resized case allows the bullet to be self centering in the throat, while the base of the case is supported by the bolt face with none of the case touching the chamber between these two points.
The late Jim Hull of Sierra bullets said he got his best accuracy when the cartridge fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case. Meaning he full length resized his cases to get the best accuracy and help reduce case alignment errors with the chamber.
Below the full length resized case allows the bullet to be self centering in the throat, while the base of the case is supported by the bolt face with none of the case touching the chamber between these two points.
The late Jim Hull of Sierra bullets said he got his best accuracy when the cartridge fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case. Meaning he full length resized his cases to get the best accuracy and help reduce case alignment errors with the chamber.
Let me add something about neck turning; I don't do it, and I won't do it. Unless you need to do it in order to fit a tight chamber, or are necking down to a smaller caliber, I wouldn't waste my time. I see no measurable benefit to be gained by simply turning necks to artificially create the illusion of more concentricity. Read Redding's stance on neck turning.
Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy (AccurateShooter.com)
Step 1
Make the neck-shoulder junction to head length and outside case dimensions identical for all cases.
Step 2
Trim the cases to the same overall length.
Step 3
Chamfer the ends of the necks.
Step 4
Expand the necks to a uniform diameter.
Step 5
Turn the case necks.
Reason: A neck that is uniform in thickness helps improve both bullet release tension and case/bullet concentricity.
Step 6
Make both the flash hole and primer pocket uniform.
Step 7
Check for concentricity close to the shoulder and midway along the neck.
Reason: To know that the cases are straight and to later check the straightness of the dies and the chamber.
Method: Use a concentricity tool such as this one provided by Sinclair. In most instances, the cases will vary approximately .001 to .003 at the shoulder and .010 to .015 on the neck at this stage of preparation. After fire-forming, that dimension should be reduced to approximately .0 to .001 on the shoulder and .003 to .005 on the neck if the chamber is straight. After neck sizing, those dimensions should remain the same or the neck concentricity may improve. If not, this operation will let you know which is not concentric and needs replacing.
Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy link below.
Complete Precision Case Prep within AccurateShooter.com
Step 1
Make the neck-shoulder junction to head length and outside case dimensions identical for all cases.
Step 2
Trim the cases to the same overall length.
Step 3
Chamfer the ends of the necks.
Step 4
Expand the necks to a uniform diameter.
Step 5
Turn the case necks.
Reason: A neck that is uniform in thickness helps improve both bullet release tension and case/bullet concentricity.
Step 6
Make both the flash hole and primer pocket uniform.
Step 7
Check for concentricity close to the shoulder and midway along the neck.
Reason: To know that the cases are straight and to later check the straightness of the dies and the chamber.
Method: Use a concentricity tool such as this one provided by Sinclair. In most instances, the cases will vary approximately .001 to .003 at the shoulder and .010 to .015 on the neck at this stage of preparation. After fire-forming, that dimension should be reduced to approximately .0 to .001 on the shoulder and .003 to .005 on the neck if the chamber is straight. After neck sizing, those dimensions should remain the same or the neck concentricity may improve. If not, this operation will let you know which is not concentric and needs replacing.
Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy link below.
Complete Precision Case Prep within AccurateShooter.com
I guess it depends on how high the standards are: i.e. what shooting discipline we are talking about. I have personally seen the difference neck-turned brass makes in 500 yard and longer F-class....a few points consistently...and this is with Lapua brass which is very good to start with. The improvement will be greater with less consistent brass. To a person, every single top F-class shooter I know turns necks. With other shooting disciplines where more movement is involved(i.e. less steady positions), I would not bother turning necks.
Thanks for some very good points and input. My mistake on my post was that I was getting consistant .002 runout according to my Sinclair concintricity guage. I am actually getting more like an average of .003 to .004. I guess I wrote what I was wishing I could get it down to! I am shooting a stock Remington 700 SPS Tactical 308 Win. I am currently using a Redding type S F/L bushing type Sizer die. I use a Forester benchrest type seater die. I am pretty sure I am obsessing over my loads since I am just shooting a stock rifle. The gun will shoot nickle groups as is. I can't currently shoot over 300 yards at my range and this is mainly a hunting rig. The bushing die seems to work well but I always hear bad things about the expander ball. I know sometimes it's not really needed unless you have some out of round case mouths. My cases are all fire-formed, trimmed, and clean. Maybe I should have not bought that damn Sinclair guage and just kept loading and shooting!! Lol... thanks
If your rifle is performing as good as you can shoot, obsessing about runout might not be very beneficial. Shooting at longer ranges small variances shows much easier downrange.
One thing you absolutely should try if you have a press with standard threaded die holder, is getting a appropriate size O-ring and put between the die lock ring and the press, it will help the die and case self align as it induces a little play, as a o ring costs nothing it certainly a trick worth trying.
And if you have not tried already, size the case, back the ram out enough to spin the case 180 degrees and size again, both of these tricks can improve your concentricity, and are cheap.
The Redding FL dies and the Forster Br seater die is both of good quality, and should normally not give you much runout, the expander ball might be one of your issues as it does'nt do any good for your concentricity.
If you want to look further the collet die would be the logical choice with what equipment you have. You will not be able to adjust/control neck tension, but without turning and expanding necks, the returns from it are questionable. As Neck thickness is not constant neither will your neck tension be.
And at 300 yards witch is your maximum range the increase in ES/SD will most likely not show.
One thing you absolutely should try if you have a press with standard threaded die holder, is getting a appropriate size O-ring and put between the die lock ring and the press, it will help the die and case self align as it induces a little play, as a o ring costs nothing it certainly a trick worth trying.
And if you have not tried already, size the case, back the ram out enough to spin the case 180 degrees and size again, both of these tricks can improve your concentricity, and are cheap.
The Redding FL dies and the Forster Br seater die is both of good quality, and should normally not give you much runout, the expander ball might be one of your issues as it does'nt do any good for your concentricity.
If you want to look further the collet die would be the logical choice with what equipment you have. You will not be able to adjust/control neck tension, but without turning and expanding necks, the returns from it are questionable. As Neck thickness is not constant neither will your neck tension be.
And at 300 yards witch is your maximum range the increase in ES/SD will most likely not show.
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