I have a small problem with my reloaded 308 ammo. Compared to factory Federal Match, my ammo does not chamber as easily. I have dissembled a new Federal round and measured it all over and compared the measurements to those from my cases re-sized, trimmed and ready to load. In all cases, my ammo has better tolerances (all measurements are less) than the Fed ammo. I even checked the shoulder setback using a 380 case and micrometer. The problem presents itself when turning the bolt down after chambering the reloaded round. It is noticeably more difficult to push the bolt handle down with my loads versus the new Fed ones. Could an extremely light coat of resizing lube be causing this?
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Reloaded 308 issues
- Thread starter captmike03
- Start date
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
Stupid question time. Neck size or full length? Do your cases chamber after sizing? Try chambering a case after each step of the loading process. You may be distorting the case in one of your steps. Also, what bullet are you using? Check your length at the ogive.
Stupid question time. Neck size or full length? Do your cases chamber after sizing? Try chambering a case after each step of the loading process. You may be distorting the case in one of your steps. Also, what bullet are you using? Check your length at the ogive.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Capt Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a small problem with my reloaded 308 ammo. Compared to factory Federal Match, my ammo does not chamber as easily. I have dissembled a new Federal round and measured it all over and compared the measurements to those from my cases re-sized, trimmed and ready to load. In all cases, my ammo has better tolerances (all measurements are less) than the Fed ammo. I even checked the shoulder setback using a 380 case and micrometer. The problem presents itself when turning the bolt down after chambering the reloaded round. It is noticeably more difficult to push the bolt handle down with my loads versus the new Fed ones. Could an extremely light coat of resizing lube be causing this? </div></div>
Why did you disassemble a good round? There was nothing to be learned by taking apart a loaded round if you are having a problem with your loaded rounds as all of the problems will be found in the outside dimensions. Something you are saying cannot be true. You may need some better measurement tools than an empty .380 case.
Chamber an empty case that was fired by this rifle but that has not been touched after firing. Does it chamber easily? If yes then resize the case. After correctly resizing the case if the bolt is harder to close then you know you are not sizing correctly. Check your sizing die setup and use Imperial Sizing Wax for the case body operations.
HTH!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Capt Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a small problem with my reloaded 308 ammo. Compared to factory Federal Match, my ammo does not chamber as easily. I have dissembled a new Federal round and measured it all over and compared the measurements to those from my cases re-sized, trimmed and ready to load. In all cases, my ammo has better tolerances (all measurements are less) than the Fed ammo. I even checked the shoulder setback using a 380 case and micrometer. The problem presents itself when turning the bolt down after chambering the reloaded round. It is noticeably more difficult to push the bolt handle down with my loads versus the new Fed ones. Could an extremely light coat of resizing lube be causing this? </div></div>
Why did you disassemble a good round? There was nothing to be learned by taking apart a loaded round if you are having a problem with your loaded rounds as all of the problems will be found in the outside dimensions. Something you are saying cannot be true. You may need some better measurement tools than an empty .380 case.
Chamber an empty case that was fired by this rifle but that has not been touched after firing. Does it chamber easily? If yes then resize the case. After correctly resizing the case if the bolt is harder to close then you know you are not sizing correctly. Check your sizing die setup and use Imperial Sizing Wax for the case body operations.
HTH!
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
It is possible for a case shoulder to be moved forward by an FL sizing die if the setup does not "bump" the shoulder back.
Think of those earthworks you dissected in high school. Annual muscles squeeze the creature longer. On firing, the case expands radially and friction holds it forward against the chamber's shoulder area. Gas pressure for a full-power load will stretch the case walls just ahead of the web as the head moves back through its head clearance area to the boltface.
Case is a bit longer (often by not very much at all) AND a bit wider.
Sizing the tapered body down = brass wants to push longer. If'n it don't go far 'nuff in the die to hit the shoulder, you now have a case that's too long at the shoulder.
Hold a sized and unprimed and hard-to-close on case in pliers or on a wire, coat it with candle smoke, and then chamber it and look for skid marks after chambering the smoked case. THAT's where your problem will be.
Then throw it away if the casehead got anything more than about 180F, just to be sure it didn't get annealed. Good for necks, can cause failure in caseheads.
It is possible for a case shoulder to be moved forward by an FL sizing die if the setup does not "bump" the shoulder back.
Think of those earthworks you dissected in high school. Annual muscles squeeze the creature longer. On firing, the case expands radially and friction holds it forward against the chamber's shoulder area. Gas pressure for a full-power load will stretch the case walls just ahead of the web as the head moves back through its head clearance area to the boltface.
Case is a bit longer (often by not very much at all) AND a bit wider.
Sizing the tapered body down = brass wants to push longer. If'n it don't go far 'nuff in the die to hit the shoulder, you now have a case that's too long at the shoulder.
Hold a sized and unprimed and hard-to-close on case in pliers or on a wire, coat it with candle smoke, and then chamber it and look for skid marks after chambering the smoked case. THAT's where your problem will be.
Then throw it away if the casehead got anything more than about 180F, just to be sure it didn't get annealed. Good for necks, can cause failure in caseheads.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
Thank you all for your input. I understand that I left myself wide open by excluding information, but sometimes, In the heat of the chase one cannot remember to include all pertinent info. After reading your comments I have a better idea of what I should provide to help solve this issue. First, I have a nice metal micrometer and know how to “zero” and use it. I started over with the measurements and tried to be as consistent as possible. The reason I dissembled a factory round (Federal Match) is so I could have something to use as a benchmark. I also wanted to see if I could identify the powder and weight they were using (I can always reassemble the round). Here is the info on the reloaded rounds:
Cases: Federal once fired, Lake City, Winchester & Military (probably M-60cases)
Primer: CCI large rifle
Dies: RCBS FL SB
Press: RCBS
Powder: Varget
Bullet: Sierra Match King HPBT
As suggested, I resized a few cases of each type and chambered them. The new case chambered fine, the once fired Federal chambered OK, but with a little drag. The LC and the Military and a couple of assorted cases (Remington, Winchester) all were more difficult to chamber on the bolt handle down stroke than the factory case. As suggested, I smoked two cases and chambered them.
You can see where the smoked portion of the cases was removed, primarily at the shoulder and at the very bottom next to the extractor ring. It seems there are drag marks on the back end of the cases, but that may be normal.
Here are the numbers for the factory Fed case:
2.005 over all
0.451 @ shoulder
0.466 @ base above extractor ring
0.308 ID neck
0.338 OD neck
2.384 overall using a 380 case bumped to shoulder (sorry gang, but that is all I have right now)
I could list all the numbers for all the cases, but for brevity I will only list the LC which has been sized and trimmed to length:
2.005 over all
0.451 shoulder
0.469 @ base above extractor ring
0.306 ID neck
0.334 OD neck
2.363 overall w/380 case
I will be glad to list all the measurement for all the cases, just let me know if it is pertinent. Please be aware that this is not a real big issue for me. I just feel I should be able to replicate the approximate feel of the factory ammo and I am sure there is an accuracy issue here. I also know a lot of you all here take reloading and the associated accuracy very seriously, but remember, when I started doing this in the 60’s it was quite an accomplishment just to be able to consistently load your favorite hunting round and hit something at 100/200 yards. What I am trying to do today is a big leap in proficiency for me. Please be gentle.
Thanks
Thank you all for your input. I understand that I left myself wide open by excluding information, but sometimes, In the heat of the chase one cannot remember to include all pertinent info. After reading your comments I have a better idea of what I should provide to help solve this issue. First, I have a nice metal micrometer and know how to “zero” and use it. I started over with the measurements and tried to be as consistent as possible. The reason I dissembled a factory round (Federal Match) is so I could have something to use as a benchmark. I also wanted to see if I could identify the powder and weight they were using (I can always reassemble the round). Here is the info on the reloaded rounds:
Cases: Federal once fired, Lake City, Winchester & Military (probably M-60cases)
Primer: CCI large rifle
Dies: RCBS FL SB
Press: RCBS
Powder: Varget
Bullet: Sierra Match King HPBT
As suggested, I resized a few cases of each type and chambered them. The new case chambered fine, the once fired Federal chambered OK, but with a little drag. The LC and the Military and a couple of assorted cases (Remington, Winchester) all were more difficult to chamber on the bolt handle down stroke than the factory case. As suggested, I smoked two cases and chambered them.
You can see where the smoked portion of the cases was removed, primarily at the shoulder and at the very bottom next to the extractor ring. It seems there are drag marks on the back end of the cases, but that may be normal.
2.005 over all
0.451 @ shoulder
0.466 @ base above extractor ring
0.308 ID neck
0.338 OD neck
2.384 overall using a 380 case bumped to shoulder (sorry gang, but that is all I have right now)
I could list all the numbers for all the cases, but for brevity I will only list the LC which has been sized and trimmed to length:
2.005 over all
0.451 shoulder
0.469 @ base above extractor ring
0.306 ID neck
0.334 OD neck
2.363 overall w/380 case
I will be glad to list all the measurement for all the cases, just let me know if it is pertinent. Please be aware that this is not a real big issue for me. I just feel I should be able to replicate the approximate feel of the factory ammo and I am sure there is an accuracy issue here. I also know a lot of you all here take reloading and the associated accuracy very seriously, but remember, when I started doing this in the 60’s it was quite an accomplishment just to be able to consistently load your favorite hunting round and hit something at 100/200 yards. What I am trying to do today is a big leap in proficiency for me. Please be gentle.
Thanks
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
I suggest you get a RCBS precision mic PN 88329. If you are having resistance at the end of the bolt stroke and the extractor marks, the shoulder is not being pushed back enough. Also you are trying various cases. Stick with one brand until you sort it out. preferably some once fired FGMM.
Using your current tools (the 380 case a mic), just keep pushing the shoulder back until a case feeds fine and record measurements.
I currently use a redding bushing die, and when I was first setting it up, the cases seemed to stretch after resizing. I was perplexed, but just kept adjusting the die until I hit the .002 shoulder bump(using the RCBS precision mic).
Since NATO and SAAMI specs are different for headspace and the true Datum line can be different in each case, it will be best to get one tool to use for shoulder bump. If the RCBS is pricey, you can get the Wilson and use your mic, or caliper.
BTW I measured an unfired FGMM with my RCBS and it was .002 under 0, which should equate to .002 under saami.
I suggest you get a RCBS precision mic PN 88329. If you are having resistance at the end of the bolt stroke and the extractor marks, the shoulder is not being pushed back enough. Also you are trying various cases. Stick with one brand until you sort it out. preferably some once fired FGMM.
Using your current tools (the 380 case a mic), just keep pushing the shoulder back until a case feeds fine and record measurements.
I currently use a redding bushing die, and when I was first setting it up, the cases seemed to stretch after resizing. I was perplexed, but just kept adjusting the die until I hit the .002 shoulder bump(using the RCBS precision mic).
Since NATO and SAAMI specs are different for headspace and the true Datum line can be different in each case, it will be best to get one tool to use for shoulder bump. If the RCBS is pricey, you can get the Wilson and use your mic, or caliper.
BTW I measured an unfired FGMM with my RCBS and it was .002 under 0, which should equate to .002 under saami.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
You mentioned that some of the brass may be M60 fired. I've never been able to chamber M60 fired brass in my bolt gun without resizing with a small-base resizing die (RCBS in my case). The markings near the base of the case in the first picture seem to confirm this. A normal full-length die doesn't get that last eighth of an inch or so of the base. You need a small-base die for that.
I've since given up on machine gun brass because it is so hard to prep. I still use mil-surp brass, but it was purchased unfired in ammo cans and only fired through my bolt guns. My M1A beats brass up pretty bad too so I keep it separate from my bolt gun brass.
As of late, I only use Lapua in my bolt guns. It's great brass and I've got 7 firings on some of it with no indication of degradation (I anneal every 4 firings). Buy once, cry once.
You mentioned that some of the brass may be M60 fired. I've never been able to chamber M60 fired brass in my bolt gun without resizing with a small-base resizing die (RCBS in my case). The markings near the base of the case in the first picture seem to confirm this. A normal full-length die doesn't get that last eighth of an inch or so of the base. You need a small-base die for that.
I've since given up on machine gun brass because it is so hard to prep. I still use mil-surp brass, but it was purchased unfired in ammo cans and only fired through my bolt guns. My M1A beats brass up pretty bad too so I keep it separate from my bolt gun brass.
As of late, I only use Lapua in my bolt guns. It's great brass and I've got 7 firings on some of it with no indication of degradation (I anneal every 4 firings). Buy once, cry once.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
Because brass (like many/most? other materials) tends to "spring" back after being plastic-deformed in various operations, the final dimensions of two different cases otherwise sized identically can be different.
Harder brass resizes less.
ALSO, I have found variations of about .002 on the headspace dimension possible based on how well lubed the brass is. I therefore have learned to "gauge" what's going on by handle resistance when sizing. Noticeably more resistance means I'm going to back off that case before it's even fully sized, lube it better, and go back and finish the job (When working a progressive, I also dump that powder charge and re-start fresh, to avoid settling the powder column into a charge about .5-gr heavier than average.).
I'm seeing definite headspace interference fit on your smoked case. If a bit more lube (without entering dent territory if NOT using H-One Shot) and/or "double sizing" doesn't do it AND you're on full cam-over of the mechanism, then some slow removal of material from the bottom of the sizer may be needed.
The fact that resistance is ONLY on the final lockup, bolt handle going down, tells me that you are barely into the realm of interference fit. It shouldn't take much to fix this little problem.
Good luck, but may skill and technique make luck un-needed!
Because brass (like many/most? other materials) tends to "spring" back after being plastic-deformed in various operations, the final dimensions of two different cases otherwise sized identically can be different.
Harder brass resizes less.
ALSO, I have found variations of about .002 on the headspace dimension possible based on how well lubed the brass is. I therefore have learned to "gauge" what's going on by handle resistance when sizing. Noticeably more resistance means I'm going to back off that case before it's even fully sized, lube it better, and go back and finish the job (When working a progressive, I also dump that powder charge and re-start fresh, to avoid settling the powder column into a charge about .5-gr heavier than average.).
I'm seeing definite headspace interference fit on your smoked case. If a bit more lube (without entering dent territory if NOT using H-One Shot) and/or "double sizing" doesn't do it AND you're on full cam-over of the mechanism, then some slow removal of material from the bottom of the sizer may be needed.
The fact that resistance is ONLY on the final lockup, bolt handle going down, tells me that you are barely into the realm of interference fit. It shouldn't take much to fix this little problem.
Good luck, but may skill and technique make luck un-needed!
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading.
It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
you need to lube a little more and turn your sizeing die a quarter turn, the brass rim looks a little bend, it usually happen with too little lube while pulling the case out of the die.
hope this helps.
you need to lube a little more and turn your sizeing die a quarter turn, the brass rim looks a little bend, it usually happen with too little lube while pulling the case out of the die.
hope this helps.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
Thank you all for the input. I have learned a lot. I have found that with all things in life, it's not what you want to hear that is important. It is what you do with the learned advise of others. It is hard to admit that an old guy does not know it all, butr I don't. First, I am going to get rid off all my brass but the Federal Match cases. I can always use the other brass for hunting rounds if I run short. Next I will revisit my lubing methods. It's so easy to just roll the suckers around on the pad a little and go to it. And finally I will the possibility of removing material from either the shell holder or the bottom of the die. I agree that it looks like the shoulder could go back just a little. I'll suggest to my bride that maybe a couple of precision tools would be nice for Christmas. Please feel free to add to this thread as you all see fit. I really do appreciate all the help
Mike
Thank you all for the input. I have learned a lot. I have found that with all things in life, it's not what you want to hear that is important. It is what you do with the learned advise of others. It is hard to admit that an old guy does not know it all, butr I don't. First, I am going to get rid off all my brass but the Federal Match cases. I can always use the other brass for hunting rounds if I run short. Next I will revisit my lubing methods. It's so easy to just roll the suckers around on the pad a little and go to it. And finally I will the possibility of removing material from either the shell holder or the bottom of the die. I agree that it looks like the shoulder could go back just a little. I'll suggest to my bride that maybe a couple of precision tools would be nice for Christmas. Please feel free to add to this thread as you all see fit. I really do appreciate all the help
Mike
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
I'd agree that your sizing die may be a touch long but a quarter turn may be to much, about .018 inch for a quarter turn on a 14 tpi die.
For lube application rolling on a pad does not lube the necks, shoulders or inside the necks. I use an alcohol and lanolin spray in a gallon bag. If you size with a ball you need a little lube in the neck to helps the ball slide and not pull the shoulder. That may help with the die set where it is. A cotton swab with a little lube every 3 to 5 cases can help.
I'd agree that your sizing die may be a touch long but a quarter turn may be to much, about .018 inch for a quarter turn on a 14 tpi die.
For lube application rolling on a pad does not lube the necks, shoulders or inside the necks. I use an alcohol and lanolin spray in a gallon bag. If you size with a ball you need a little lube in the neck to helps the ball slide and not pull the shoulder. That may help with the die set where it is. A cotton swab with a little lube every 3 to 5 cases can help.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Diddo.....I know guys that are in the sand/mountains of Afghanistan and they have stated, don't mess with military brass unless one has the knowledge to do so. Hey, I've reloaded for 25 years and I don't mess with it. I've always based my reloading data upon Win & Rem brass, so I stay in familiar territory. But I admire one that is willing to go out of the box and try something new.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Diddo.....I know guys that are in the sand/mountains of Afghanistan and they have stated, don't mess with military brass unless one has the knowledge to do so. Hey, I've reloaded for 25 years and I don't mess with it. I've always based my reloading data upon Win & Rem brass, so I stay in familiar territory. But I admire one that is willing to go out of the box and try something new.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Bop'l Shop-it!
*Possibly* less good for reloading but only IF fired with a long headspace situation, and even then it's only a matter of a shorter life.
You will get equally short case life if your chamber is maximum SAAMI and you resize the loads to minimum SAAMI case dimensions. LC cases can break in five reloads. BTDT.
Same thing with commercial cases. BTDT. I now measure for that little old "bump" of about .004 for use in my semiautos. Up to six loads now on the last of the MG-fired brass (a few had been over-sized abused only twice), the LC brass and the commercial brass.
Crammming cases all the way into the sizing die is often not a good idea. But like the OP discovered, you also have to shove them in far enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Bop'l Shop-it!
*Possibly* less good for reloading but only IF fired with a long headspace situation, and even then it's only a matter of a shorter life.
You will get equally short case life if your chamber is maximum SAAMI and you resize the loads to minimum SAAMI case dimensions. LC cases can break in five reloads. BTDT.
Same thing with commercial cases. BTDT. I now measure for that little old "bump" of about .004 for use in my semiautos. Up to six loads now on the last of the MG-fired brass (a few had been over-sized abused only twice), the LC brass and the commercial brass.
Crammming cases all the way into the sizing die is often not a good idea. But like the OP discovered, you also have to shove them in far enough.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Bop'l Shop-it!
*Possibly* less good for reloading but only IF fired with a long headspace situation, and even then it's only a matter of a shorter life.
You will get equally short case life if your chamber is maximum SAAMI and you resize the loads to minimum SAAMI case dimensions. LC cases can break in five reloads. BTDT.
Same thing with commercial cases. BTDT. I now measure for that little old "bump" of about .004 for use in my semiautos. Up to six loads now on the last of the MG-fired brass (a few had been over-sized abused only twice), the LC brass and the commercial brass.
Crammming cases all the way into the sizing die is often not a good idea. But like the OP discovered, you also have to shove them in far enough. </div></div>
I agree, it doesnt look like the casing is getting fully resized. Not far enough into the die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZIROC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It may have been said already, but could it be M60 brass?? aka fired out of a machine gun? ive been told this brass is not good for reloading. </div></div>
Bop'l Shop-it!
*Possibly* less good for reloading but only IF fired with a long headspace situation, and even then it's only a matter of a shorter life.
You will get equally short case life if your chamber is maximum SAAMI and you resize the loads to minimum SAAMI case dimensions. LC cases can break in five reloads. BTDT.
Same thing with commercial cases. BTDT. I now measure for that little old "bump" of about .004 for use in my semiautos. Up to six loads now on the last of the MG-fired brass (a few had been over-sized abused only twice), the LC brass and the commercial brass.
Crammming cases all the way into the sizing die is often not a good idea. But like the OP discovered, you also have to shove them in far enough. </div></div>
I agree, it doesnt look like the casing is getting fully resized. Not far enough into the die.
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
Buy a new lot of brass of lapua and be done with it.You will be spending less time thinking what if my gun will blow up on me and will my bolt stick on me when I pull the trigger. Dump your military brass and move on!
Buy a new lot of brass of lapua and be done with it.You will be spending less time thinking what if my gun will blow up on me and will my bolt stick on me when I pull the trigger. Dump your military brass and move on!
Re: Reloaded 308 issues
I would agree with all that posted about the military brass. It's cheap because it's basically worthless. I tried to make it work, and you can, but why?
If you don't mind the time or just like prepping brass, buy some Winchester stuff. If you don't want to deal with it, buy Lapua. It's great stuff.
I would agree with all that posted about the military brass. It's cheap because it's basically worthless. I tried to make it work, and you can, but why?
If you don't mind the time or just like prepping brass, buy some Winchester stuff. If you don't want to deal with it, buy Lapua. It's great stuff.
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