Reloading newby dies question - Bushing vs FL vs Collet/Body vs etc

[patriot07]

Somewhat new to reloading. Loaded up a bunch of 223 for my Tikka Varmint, but it was all once-fired range brass and I FL-sized it all.

Now I have a Tikka CTR 6.5 creedmoor and I've started with 150 pieces of new brass and 200 rounds of Hornady 140 ELD-M factory ammo that I fired through the Tikka. What is the best bet for dies? I'd like to have the best combination of accuracy, brass life, and least amount of work (in that order of preference). I realize it will probably not be possible to have all 3.

I just got a Hornady trimmer and I have an RCBS Rock Chucker with Lee shell holders and the RCBS hand-primer. Never used a trimmer before.

I got the Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension 6.5 Creedmoor die set for Christmas (FL size & bullet seater). Have not opened it yet and can likely return it if I need to.

 

[patriot07]

Also, I will be bumping the shoulder, not FL-sizing.

 

[spife7980]

Run what you have, nothing wrong with the hornady dies. To see which die would size your particular brass less would require you to buy each and see.

Just keep your two separate lots of brass seperate.

Do you have the tools to measure your brass? The Hornady/Sinclair comparator sets?

edit: how are you going to be bumping the shoulders with a full length die and not full length size? I think some more in-depth reading is in order, maybe watch elfsters reloading series on YouTube.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCyPEnjRX7ebb28MKusD6VfMZlnsNkpK0

 

[patriot07]

Why would I keep the brass separate? My plan is to shoot the 150 pieces of new brass and then I'll have all once-fired Hornady brass shot in the same rifle?

I'll try to watch the videos tonight - but can you summarize why I would FL size brass that's going to be shot in the same bolt gun instead of bumping the shoulder .002"-.003"?

 

[spife7980]

Because your once fired and new are different lots and could have different dimensions. If you test and see that they perform the same then mix away but adding them in together is just adding another unknown variable to worry about.

Full length sizing squeezes the sides of the case, pushes the shoulder back and resizes the neck. Aka it sizes the full length of the case. You can “bump” the shoulders back .001-002” for a bolt and .003 for a semi but you’re still full length sizing.

A body die will squeeze the sides and push the shoulders back like a full length, it just won’t size the neck. The body die will require an additional neck sizing step. The neck die only sizes the neck of the case. A body die and neck die just split the two components of the full length sizing into two seperate steps.

A bump die like Forster makes look to be the same thing as a full length die only they have the body bored out a bit more to not squeeze down the base but it would still have to be close enough that it does t allow the vase walls to buckle.

Just use your full length dies as they are before trying to get cute with boutique dies. Also realize that full length sizing doesn’t require you to take the brass all the way to minimum saami spec if that’s what you are equating with full length sizing. Bumping the shoulders is just the one variable we can control the dimension of with normal sizing dies via screwing it in or out for more or less.

 

[patriot07]

When I used the term "FL size", I meant taking the brass back to SAAMI spec. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not trying to get cute with boutique dies, but I am trying to limit the amount of work I'm doing on the brass. If I can make the brass last longer by using body dies and collet dies and it avoids trimming altogether and accuracy is better, then I would do it. If I still have to trim some and accuracy isn't any better and the brass still lasts just as long, then I'll just use what I have. Just trying to figure out how much difference the body/collet dies really make.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't have much interest in using bushing dies to adjust neck tension or the forester bump die. Mainly I'm just considering the body/collet dies, and just included the others since I don't really know enough to discount them without consideration.

 

[padom]

Your better off using your current FL die to bump the shoulder back .0015 after each firing and go from there. You will need to trim at some point.

 

[patriot07]

Ok, thanks.

About how many firings would you expect before I have to trim?

How many firings does the Hornady brass last in 6.5 using this method?

 

[spife7980]

How many firing before needing to trim? No idea. Depends on your brass, your chamber and your loading process.

What I do is trim them to the middle of the spec and not worry about them. Trim each time to that number and you’ll have consistent lengths which equals consistent amounts of bullet hold from that variable.

Saami spec is 1.920-.020 (http://members.saami.org/ManualsStds...0Creedmoor.pdf) so anywhere from 1.900-1.920 will be fine. I shoot for the middle so 1.910 is what I would trim to.
It could be a firing or two before they get that long. Your new brass will be longer before it’s first firing, when it’s fired it swells up and some of that length gets pulled back and stretched out to body diameter leaving brass that’s shorter than it went in as a virgin. It should grow from there.

Hornady is soft so expect 6 firings and be happy with anything after that but with prudent reloading practices and not over working your brass 10-12 wouldn’t be unreasonable.

 

[patriot07]

Thanks.

Still haven't heard a good reason for why not to use the body/collet dies? Is there something I'm missing about why they're not ideal? Less trimming, longer brass life, more concentricity, etc. sounds good. I realize I'm 2 for 2 for people saying I should just use my FL die and be done with it, but why is that a better option than the body/collet dies?

 

[spife7980]

Because separating them into seperate steps takes twice as long. Other than that there isn’t a good reason not to other than the cost of two dies. The trimming will be the same, the life will be the same, the concentricity can be just the same as well. The only way any of those things can be worse with a traditional full length over splitting up the operations is if you are doing the full length wrong. Do you want six or half a dozen?

 

[patriot07]

Makes sense. I just read a bunch where the neck sizing with a collet was far superior to the FL die and expander ball. If it's not, then there is no reason to pursue that route. Thanks. I'll stick with the regular FL sizing die.

 

[Marksman10x]

Honestly man, I have all the fancy dies and I have some standard dies like you mentioned. I think you will be very happy with the results you get from your current setup. I have shot many sub half moa groups with standard FL dies and watched countless fools shoot huge groups and miss every steel target on the range using the highest-end everything. It's so much more the Indian than the Arrow!!

 

[patriot07]

I got great results with the FL 223 dies on my Tikka Varmint. My main concerns for this 6.5CM loading were brass life and the alleged need to trim less with collet dies. And if I got better concentricity and marginally better accuracy, then I'd consider it. But if the other info I've read on collet dies is incorrect, then it's definitely not worth it.

I just don't understand the difference in info from reports online saying no trimming is required and brass lasts forever versus folks on here saying there is no difference in brass life and trimming frequency when using a collet vs a FL die.

 

[spife7980]

If you only collet then you are only neck sizing. Neck sizing only it will reduce the need to trim as often. Eventually you will find that the brass will stop chambering though and require you to full length anyways. And it may lead to more concentric brass but can you tell the difference between .002 of run out and .001? No.

 

[patriot07]

I’m not considering only neck sizing. I was considering using bodies dies to bump the shoulder and collet dies to size the neck.

It sounds like what you’re saying is that it isn’t the neck sizing that drives the need for trimming as much as the body sizing? If I bump .002”-.003” with a FL size die or with a body die, then I’ll still need to trim about the same regardless of whether I use the collet die or the FL die to size the neck?

 

[spife7980]

Correct. The process of firing expands it and full length squeezing back down forces the brass to flow forward into the neck. Think of it as a play dough snake, the more you work it the longer it becomes and so trimming is necessary.

It would be cool if the fired and sized brass went back where it came from but that’s not possible since we can’t also support the insides of the case to prevent buckling and then create enough pressure to make the brass flow back to its original location.

 

[J!m]

I don't have experience with the 6.5, so I may be off base here, but I also have a truck-load of fancy-smancy dies and other goodies and I use very little of it all. Therefore, if you want to keep it simple/cheap, try these guidelines first:

Once my brass has been fired in the rifle, I only neck size (Lee collet die) and verify empty case OAL, which I trim back to print maximum, and lightly deburr the neck mouth as needed.

Then I tumble in walnut with a bit of Nu-Finish

Then I hand-prime

Then I throw a charge into my triple-beam and trickle to exact weight

Dump it in the case

Set the bullet and seat with a micrometer seater die (the green box one I think- hard to remember since I have so much crap). I seat the bullet so the COAL is print maximum, which (in my old rifle) was well off the lands.

SHOOT and repeat.

I had a light load for that particular rifle, and never had "heavy bolt" closing issues. But, that is certainly a possibility with other changes and other rifles (or more times through the cycle). I think bumping the shoulders back would be good; however I'd probably pull the bullets on cartridges that are "hard" to close and one that is "normal" to close and find that "sweet spot" dimension and set my shoulder die accordingly. I never went there (never needed to) but that's how I'd find that sweet spot. Once I did, I'd lock the die down and when needed, run the cases through that BEFORE neck sizing and trimming because it will pull the neck back enough to avoid trimming I'm reasonably certain.

Edit/PS: I never annealed, but would scrap cases as soon as I saw cracks (or what looked like it was going to be a crack). I used those headband magnifier sets and they work great for that. Like I said, I have brass ranging from months old to 50+ years old. I segregated by brand (Federal was what I was using last) and stuck with one brand. I have several boxes of unopened Lapua brass but I never got to it in the old rifle. Maybe I will in the M40 when I get it...

 

[patriot07]

Thanks guys! I'll keep it simple and stick with the FL dies that I already have and see how it goes.

 

[gigamortis]

Between firings, I only neck size with the Lee Collet die. When I start noticing a few stickier bolt lifts from my current 100 count lot of Lapua brass, I bump shoulders with a body die, followed by a second run through the press with the Collet die to size the necks and seat my primers on the downstroke. I prefer the Collet die to other neck sizing methods because I don't have to worry about neck lube. My Collet dies have also provided me with the least amount of runout out of any other method of neck sizing.

 

[kansas]

If I’ve followed this thread correctly, it sounds like you are weighing the benefits of using a collet die like a Lee collet die and just bumping the shoulder with a body die. My opinion is this works great. The benefits are you can straighten any runout from your case necks with the collet die. For the cost of a Lee collet die it’s worth the money. I bought a runout gauge to check my brass but with a Lee collet die there’s no need for the gauge. Runout is always zero. Bumping the shoulder then sizing the neck adds a step but I like the finished product.