Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

P

psywar

Private
Minuteman
Jul 19, 2002
63
0
Austin, TX
www.stiefelmaier.com
#1
Hello,

I was curious if anyone has figured out if it is ok to reload the .30-06 M2 AP projectile into a 7.62 case (eg it this "making" a new AP round or simply "reassembling" one that was exempted.. like the SS109 was)? I have looked online and I cannot find a straight answer.

If it is legal, does anyone have any recipes for 7.62 load? (I mostly shoot with Varget).

Last are there any concerns with such a LONG PROJECTILE that has plenty of surface area (eg. will I get more pressure, earlier)?

thx for any advice,
psywar


 
#2
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

Wouldn't do it. I believe that possessing the bullet is legal, possessing AP ammo probably isn't. Most ranges have specific prohibitions against their use.

Mainly I wouldn't do it because, as I understand it, the bullet's accuracy ranges from dismal to awful.

Greg
 
#3
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

Since when is loading AP tips illegal? I guess it must vary from state to state, but I have a few hundred of them for 30 caliber and I keep a few loaded on hand for splashing rocks or such when the shooting day is approaching the end. Makes for some nice sparks.

I just bought them from my friendly local surplus ammo place. Accurary does suck with them though.
 
#4
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Accurary does suck with them though.</div></div>

Too bad. Back when the HP target was 5-V (not 10-X), many state teams LOVED the .30-06 AP ammo for practice because it was significantly more accurate than most M2 Ball.

IIRC, all it took to keep them happy was 2 MOA from Garands.

There were hotly conflicting reports on whether or not they would acellerate wear in good barrels. Again, we're not talking the "it's shot out if it holds only 1 MOA" standard here.

As far as legal advice, I'm not stepping into it.
 
#5
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

IIRC, all it took to keep them happy was 2 MOA from Garands.


As far as legal advice, I'm not stepping into it. </div></div>

I was comparing them to something like a 168 HPBT match or a similar weight Amax. Compared to 150 Mil surp FMJBT's they shoot dandy. They hit melon sized rocks at 100-300 no problem but that's all I've ever used them for.

 
#6
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

Grump is right...when I shot with the Navy Glenco rifle team back in the 60's, we were issued AP for practice and for matches since it was the most accurate stuff out there in the military portfolio. The rifles were armorer accurized M-1's. I actually tried a few I had left over about 6 months ago. In original loading they held 4.5 inches at 100. Pulled and reloaded...same brass, bullet, and primer without the tar sealant it held about 1.25 inches. If I had known then what I know now, I'd be handicapped with a lifetime master rating. JMHO
 
#8
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Grump said:
They hit melon sized rocks at 100-300 no problem but that's all I've ever used them for.
</div></div>

I want to shoot them at scrap iron. But I am worried that federal (not state) laws might not want me to load the legal .30-06 AP projectile into a .308 case. Since the ATF considers the .308 to have been a handgun (thanks Olympic Arms) they have exempted the .30-06 loading not the projectile itself.

see: Pages 165-166

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Exemptions: The following articles
are exempted from the definition of armor
piercing ammunition.

5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855
Ammunition, identified by a green coating
on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2AP, identified by a
black coating on the projectile ti</span>p."</span>

thoughts?

thx,
psywar
Click to expand...
 
#9
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: psywar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Grump said:
They hit melon sized rocks at 100-300 no problem but that's all I've ever used them for.
</div></div>

I want to shoot them at scrap iron. But I am worried that federal (not state) laws might not want me to load the legal .30-06 AP projectile into a .308 case. Since the ATF considers the .308 to have been a handgun (thanks Olympic Arms) they have exempted the .30-06 loading not the projectile itself.

see: Pages 165-166

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Exemptions: The following articles
are exempted from the definition of armor
piercing ammunition.

5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855
Ammunition, identified by a green coating
on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2AP, identified by a
black coating on the projectile ti</span>p."</span>

thoughts?

thx,
psywar </div></div>

Scrape the black tips off it and have a blast.

EDIT I just read the regs, and it says "a full jacketed projectile larger than 22 caliber....25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

This stuff wasn't designed to be used in a hand gun. I think you're safe. If you stick it in a T/C chambered in 308 then you're probably F**K't
Click to expand...
 
#10
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

I put them through a 6 hour cycle in the tumbler, no more blacktip and they are nice and shiny.

Still researching if it is legal. I wonder if I load the projectiles into a 7.62 marked case (as opposed to a .308 headstamped case) since there is not handgun (even the TC) that is setup for 7.62, just to SAAMI .308 specs.
wink.gif


-psywar
 
#11
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

SAAMI .308 specs are higher pressures than 7.62x51.

Anything that is chambered in .308 Winchesterw will safely shoot any 7.62x51 NATO spec cartridges.

This is the opposite of the 5.56x45/.223 Rem discussion.
 
#12
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: psywar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put them through a 6 hour cycle in the tumbler, no more blacktip and they are nice and shiny.

Still researching if it is legal. I wonder if I load the projectiles into a 7.62 marked case (as opposed to a .308 headstamped case) since there is not handgun (even the TC) that is setup for 7.62, just to SAAMI .308 specs.
wink.gif


-psywar </div></div>

Cool, enjoy!
 
#13
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

psywar,

It's been a while since I read the ATF book, but I know with my type 6 (mfg of ammo) license, I can not mfg or sell AP rounds. I don't mess with them anyway. But, looks like you solved your problem with the black tip. I can not comment on a personal level of legality, though.

Chad
 
#14
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

my buddy got some last year and loaded them up for 308, i shot 5 thru my 700 varmint and hit a 6" steel plate at 200 with them all, so they cant be too bad for accuracy and makes a nice big hole in the 1/4" steel
 
#15
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

These bullets have an overall length of a 190 grain match bullet. You have to seat them as far outs your magazine allows and use 165 grain loading data. That isn't near maximum use little or no crimp.
 
#17
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">psywar,

It's been a while since I read the ATF book, but I know with my type 6 (mfg of ammo) license, I can not mfg or sell AP rounds. I don't mess with them anyway. But, looks like you solved your problem with the black tip. I can not comment on a personal level of legality, though.

Chad
</div></div>

The 1934 and 1968 gun laws were over possession.
The Bush ban and other laws are over manufacturing.

There are lots of guns for sale at gunshows that were built in violation of 922[r] and lots of 308 armor piercing ammo, but no one does anything about it.

But go to a gunshow to sell a machine gun, a sawed off shotgun, or a suppressor without the proper paper work, and you will find out the difference between possession and manufacturing.

What does it all mean?
You can put any bullet in any case with a seating die for you own use and there are no laws violated that are enforced. Don't try putting together armor piercing ammo and advertising it for sale, or you may get the knock on the door.

 
#20
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mainly I wouldn't do it because, as I understand it, the bullet's accuracy ranges from dismal to awful.

Greg </div></div>


Might want to research that. USGI 30-06 AP was used in many a glassed stick, up to and past V/N. There was one guy in V/N from Hill 55 that used it a lot.
 
#21
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nut job</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've look pretty hard and can't find any for sale. Do you guys buy them online or ftf? </div></div>

I'm told that these guys had them in stock at one point. Seems like they sold out.

Link

Plenty on GB
 
#22
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Link

Plenty on GB </div></div>

At 65 cents each.
They were 5 cents in ShotgunNews 10 years ago.

Back then, 10 years ago, at machinery auctions, I would run into barrel manufacturer and high power competitor from Portland, John Benjamin. He said those bullets were really hard on barrels.

http://www.artisanideas.com/product.jhtm?id=1211&cid=27

Looks like he is still around. I wonder if he has any data to support that.

 
#23
Re: Reloading the163 gr M2 AP into 7.62 - legal?

The 163gr 30-06 AP rd had a 63gr steel core encased in std bullet lead, inside of a copper jacket. The 143gr 7.62X51mm AP rd was just flashed with copper.
 
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