I leaning toward a stock issue.... Maybe a trigger issue? (Mark x) I'd check my stock screws maybe change the torque one way or the other....you haven't mentioned environmental conditions either....quit cleaning it and put 40 or 50 rounds down it and see what happens Its not a benchrest barrel.Remington corelocks while a decent hunting round are not your friend when shooting groups...
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Range Report Rem 700 sps varmint 243 win. Weird groups...
- Thread starter Shooter89
- Start date
From your above reply, it's looks like you've worked hard in trying to figure things out.
I don't see where you've tried different bullet weights though. I have a .243 that does not like 90 gr. but is real accurate with a heavier bullet, (105gr I think, but I'd have to check my notes).
I understand how the lack of funds can effect accuracy. I purchased a Lyman bore scope for under $200 a couple of years ago and consider it one of my better investments, gun wise. It can tell you so much about your guns, how well you clean them, wear, etc. Just don't get too carried away with what you find. In one of my better guns I found what looked like a huge cavity in the bore, but the gun shoots good, so I don't sweat it. As the gunsmiths say, "Let the bullet tell you what to do". Unfortunately, your gun is saying, "I don't like what you're doing!" But I think you have to take a look in your bore to see it looks. Ask around, maybe someone has one. If your a member of a gun club, put up a notice. There's a thread here on SH (perhaps in the gunsmithing section?), where a guy make a borescope real cheap from some parts he purchased on Amazon. Perhaps that's something that would work for you.
You roll your own ammo. How concentric is it? While I think I can make better ammo than I can buy, I realize I've introduce another variable to check if my groups go to crap. So check your handloading techniques.
Let someone else shoot it for groups. Maybe you've developed some bad habits-it can happen without you realizing it. The easiest way to find out if this has happened is make a dummy round and have someone else load the gun. If you've developed a flinch it will show up. Or take another rifle you have that is a known good shooter out and shoot it for groups. Every spring I start shooting with a .22rf to redevelope muscle memory. I have a few guns that have a strong recoil and after shooting them I go back to the .22rf to check if I've developed any bad habits. I realize a .243 isn't known for it's stout recoil, but bad habits can show up without you realizing it.
I live in Central Missouri, retired, and am always up for a road trip. If you live somewhat close to me, let me know.
I think i finally figured it out, went ti the range with 20 rnds spit into 2 groups of the same load and shot 10 rounds which is the far 2 right top red dots with my swfa 10x42 scope, results were the same as before. Then i switched scope and front and rear rest and fired the lower far right dot also and again same groups. So out of frustration i grabbed my torque wrench and tightened my action screws to 65 in lbs. Which i thought was to much but ohwell, try it i thought. I fired the group on the lower black and green target. Group was fired with a warm barrel and didnt exactly take my time as i was frustrated but landed 4 shots right at .750 moa with one flyer..... i cant believe this whole time my actions screws werent tight enough. I followed the reccomendations of 45 in lbs. Guess it needed more.
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Now i just need to find a different bullets, with my 7mm using a max and now using 90eldx in the 243, with both bullets i got random fliers like this... i always used hornady bullets but after the last few boxes i think they need to look into tightening up qc or something...
Well went to the range today finally got to try out my Sierra Game Changers, one of my 1st 5 shot groups looks very promising. They were set .010 off the lands with a mid range load of H4350. Had one flyer what caused it i have no clue. Any opinions? Not sure if i should stick with the same distance from the lands or adjust powder charge... what say you?
I havent seen any muzzle velocities posted. I dont think its the rifle. If I put factory 100gr 243's in my 700 it shoots 4" groups at 100yds. It puts 5 in a quarter with 87gr bergers handloaded. 2 major things needed for data collection is groups and MV's. If your MV's are spread 60ft/sec the gun will most likely shoot bad.
Ok, lemme get this straight. You started hand loading, but just picked some random charge weight and immediately started with seating depth?
That first 5 shot group doesn't mean dick, beyond the stars aligning for 5 shots. The remainder show lots of vertical stringing. Looks like you found the cause, but I'm not sure your hand loading venture did anything for you other than cost some money.
That first 5 shot group doesn't mean dick, beyond the stars aligning for 5 shots. The remainder show lots of vertical stringing. Looks like you found the cause, but I'm not sure your hand loading venture did anything for you other than cost some money.
Hlee, no i shot a few different groups. This is the only one i posted. The other groups were very similar but these were slightly better. No i picked a charge in the middle of the reccomend powder charge weight so i would have some adjustability if my seating depths were off or i needed to adjust my powder charge. I been loading for 18yrs so i am not new at this trust me. I always start with the seating depth first as it usally gets me the best groups. Once i find that i tune with powder weight. I aint looking for so much as group but what gets me the best vertical alignment then ill start adjusting powder to bring the group in.
Whats your problem anyway? If you dont like the way i do stuff thats your problem. Keep your eyes of somebody elses thread and stop wasting my time. Im sure you beem doing this for 100yrs and have everything figured out the perfect way and shoot the smallest groups. How about you do me a favor and keep your nose else where.
If op is satisfied with how his rifle is shooting now, all good?
If OP is not satisfied and is looking for consistent sub moa with cheap ammo, rifle and scope, I would suggest that the expectation might be to high. If you can get anywhere near moa with a factory Remington, you are ahead of the game.
If OP is not satisfied and is looking for consistent sub moa with cheap ammo, rifle and scope, I would suggest that the expectation might be to high. If you can get anywhere near moa with a factory Remington, you are ahead of the game.
Maybe try backing the sierras off to .015 and see what that does if you haven’t tried already. My 338 would show some vertical like your. I was able to eliminate it 2 ways, backing off .005 and bullet sorting. My 300 gr smk appeared to be off 2 machines as they measured in 2 different lengths. You could also sort out 5 and load to current length and see if that improves it
Try several different bullets of 100grs.
Try some H4831s, ww760.
Loosen guard screws, then tighten down front screw, then the back screw with your fingers on the barrel next to the forearm, do you feel any movement?
Try some H4831s, ww760.
Loosen guard screws, then tighten down front screw, then the back screw with your fingers on the barrel next to the forearm, do you feel any movement?
OCW, ladder tests, Newberry, Satterly- all have one thing in common. They use charge weight to optimize the velocity (vertical dispersion) before optimizing the seating depth. There are a lot of areas in life where you can do your own thing and just be a bit eccentric. Load dev is a science. There is an order of operations. You appear to be doing it backwards.
If you don't have a chronograph, in 2019 not having a chrono for load dev is like not having a shovel to dig a hole. The magnetospeed v3 is worth its salt. Bear in mind it can have an effect on group size, but you are primarily concerned with velocity (V), V SD, and V ES when using it.
I'm not a fan of the Satterly approach as my observations have reinforced the postulate that 1 or 2 observations per test condition are not statistically relevant. If you have not done so, look up the various approaches to load dev.
I am by no means an expert (I have also only been reloading for about 18 years), and will leave the research to you- I'm not qualified to explain the approaches, nor to wax eloquently about the relative merits there of.
Clif notes- Minimize the variability in the velocity with charge weight (vert dispersion), then tune the group size with seating depth.
I like to try to find a factory load that I can use as a bench mark. 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor make this easy because of the availability of match ammo. 243 win is harder, as most (all?) factory offerings are tailored to the hunting crowd. If you can find a factory load that shoots consistently (not just one good group out of many) it can serve as a control for the biggest variable in the test- the shooter.
Thank you for the apology, though I'm not confident it was warranted. I WAS being a bit dickish.
If you don't have a chronograph, in 2019 not having a chrono for load dev is like not having a shovel to dig a hole. The magnetospeed v3 is worth its salt. Bear in mind it can have an effect on group size, but you are primarily concerned with velocity (V), V SD, and V ES when using it.
I'm not a fan of the Satterly approach as my observations have reinforced the postulate that 1 or 2 observations per test condition are not statistically relevant. If you have not done so, look up the various approaches to load dev.
I am by no means an expert (I have also only been reloading for about 18 years), and will leave the research to you- I'm not qualified to explain the approaches, nor to wax eloquently about the relative merits there of.
Clif notes- Minimize the variability in the velocity with charge weight (vert dispersion), then tune the group size with seating depth.
I like to try to find a factory load that I can use as a bench mark. 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor make this easy because of the availability of match ammo. 243 win is harder, as most (all?) factory offerings are tailored to the hunting crowd. If you can find a factory load that shoots consistently (not just one good group out of many) it can serve as a control for the biggest variable in the test- the shooter.
Thank you for the apology, though I'm not confident it was warranted. I WAS being a bit dickish.
I suppose seating depth is something of a chicken or egg proposition. However, bullet manufacturers tend it have recommendations where to start. Barnes, for example, recommends starting 50 thou off the lands for their tsx bullets. SMKs are supposed to be jump tolerant. And, I haven't had any issues with 6.5 ELD-Ms loaded to 2.800. Truth be told, all but one of the rifles I load for are constrained by a short action box magazine (AICS or pmag), so I don't do much with seating depth. I load my 270 win way beyond Saami spec for oal. If you are running a rifle with a blind mag or hinged floor plate, you have a lot of room to maneuver. That said, if I've found a factory load that shoots well, I start there with the oal. A Hornady ogive comparator can make comparing different bullet loading easier...
I'd let the rifle tell me where the seating depth should be, and not be overly concerned about saami specs.
I'd let the rifle tell me where the seating depth should be, and not be overly concerned about saami specs.
i shot all my sierra game changers, they shot ok, most were moa groups but i want better. The factory core lock was 5 shot 3/4 group. And factory federal 80gr was 5 shot 1/2in group. But they are soft points. I want to try a different bullet. Thinking maybe i should go lighter like 80 grains or so. Kind of hard to find something that doesnt cost almost 40.00 a box. Accuracy seems to be best around 3000fps. Any suggestions?
Recreate that 80 grain 0.5 MOA load. I've no real experience with 243, so take it for what it's worth. I've read that the 243 tends to be twisted for available hunting loads- lighter, not heavier comp bullets. You may be on the right track with a lighter bullet- at least for ultimate accuracy.
What's the base to ogive measurement of the 0.5 moa factory load? That's where I would start for hand loading with a new bullet- unless the bullet manufacturer had a different rec. A hornady oal case gauge and modified 243 win case will tell you where your lands are.
What's the base to ogive measurement of the 0.5 moa factory load? That's where I would start for hand loading with a new bullet- unless the bullet manufacturer had a different rec. A hornady oal case gauge and modified 243 win case will tell you where your lands are.
Is this your first venture into reloading? Just a quick note of caution to take some time and read up to educate yourself. You've got a metric ton of experience here on this site BUT you need to be speaking the same language as others. Also you need to have a solid foundation in reloading before jumping into advanced techniques. Youtube is very educational for basic reloading techniques and Hornady and others have how to videos on their websites. I'm only asking as you asked about SAAMI specs and really you are going to be throwing them out the window (with the exception of pressure) as you go down this path.
If you are an experienced reloader, just ignore and move on. If I were learning to reload and my beginnings were here it would be like jumping into the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim for sure....
Good luck and good shooting
If you are an experienced reloader, just ignore and move on. If I were learning to reload and my beginnings were here it would be like jumping into the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim for sure....
Good luck and good shooting
Hlee, i dont know what the base to olgive measurement is. I shot all the ones i had. Bummer right... I do already have a hornady tool to measure base to olgive. I was looking at hornady 87gr v max but idk if ill get the accuracy out of them vs bergers. Of course bergers are almost 40.00 a box
Buy another box- or case. Measure every cartridge in a box. Use the mean measurement to start.
Does Hornady or Berger offer a starting recommendation for seating depth?
Shoot a group or 3 from this factory load to start every range session. This is your benchmark load. What is 0.5 moa today may be 1.2 moa tomorrow, due a to a number of variables. Use this additional information to evaluate day to day variability.
If you are shooting extra well today, is it really valid to compare to what you did 2 weeks ago when you could only manage 2 moa with the known good load- or visa versa?
I count myself lucky if I can reload for $0.60 per cartridge. Adding in my time I'd be money ahead buying berger loaded ammo and selling the Lapua brass...
Does Hornady or Berger offer a starting recommendation for seating depth?
Shoot a group or 3 from this factory load to start every range session. This is your benchmark load. What is 0.5 moa today may be 1.2 moa tomorrow, due a to a number of variables. Use this additional information to evaluate day to day variability.
If you are shooting extra well today, is it really valid to compare to what you did 2 weeks ago when you could only manage 2 moa with the known good load- or visa versa?
I count myself lucky if I can reload for $0.60 per cartridge. Adding in my time I'd be money ahead buying berger loaded ammo and selling the Lapua brass...
I dont think hornady or berger has a reccomendation. Berger only really gives you their lands test thing which is a similar test to what i use. I guess i could give both a call and find out. 87gr v max looks good so far and the coefficient isnt to bad. My farthest range is 500yrds. I have a gew different ones im looking at. Yes i do have a hinged floor plate. I might load oal to just fit then start with powder charge. And if need be ajust aol to tighten. But its gunna prob be a month be4 i will be able to shoot again till i get paid.
Id love to use bergers but there just to expensive for me right now. Mine shoot the 90gr game changers and 90gr eldx pretty good but i just can not find out what is causing the 2 fliers. Could be a few different things. Seems like i always have 2 fliers in a 5 shot group.
Again though, I havent seen muzzle velocities. If you buy a cheap chrony it will tell you alot about what the load is doing. If the MV's have a wide spread most of the time the group will open up also. When you start getting tight MV's the groups normally tighten up also. Like I said, I dont think theres anything wrong with your gun, I think its the load tuning. Trigger, bedding, bolt torque or whatever wont fix a bad group due to spread out MV's
My father has a good chrony, i use mainly h4350, might even be the powder. Seems like i always get 2 fliers no matter what bullet i try. I havent put it on the chrony yet. Next time ill have to take it with and see. So say if i get a flier and the chrony does indeed say th mv was off what then? Change powder?
Yea i am using published data, my twist is 9.125. Seems to be like alot of people are using h4350 for the bullets i have used do far from the research i have done. H4831SC is another also but i think that would be more suited for heavier bullets. I have tried a few powders, H4350, the imr Enduron equivalent of H4350, i used an aliant reloader powder i wanna say R19 but im not sure i would have to look. R19 gave .5 in 5 shot groups with berger vld in my 7mm mag be4 i sold it. I gave up on R19 cause i want a temp stable powder. Or should i say more stable than a regular powder. But i am out of bullets and powder now, but if i was to try a different powder and bullet combo it would be whenever money allows to buy my next ones. Bergers are just to much though.
There are sooooo many variables when reloading. It can be very frustrating trying to find a good combination. The unfortunate fact is that some budget rifles will never be consistent. Some rifles may be more finicky than others and never shoot a particular bullet well. Just because you like the design/price of a particular bullet, does not mean your rifle will. Same goes for powders.
Best of luck
Best of luck
BadQ, i agree. I wouldnt exactly call my rifle budget priced atleast not for me, but i understand where your coming from. Fact is my rifle will shoot factory 80gr soft points really well but i dont wanna use thoes. My rifle is a base for a build i wanna do, just trying to make it work until i can get a new stock and maybe a new barrel next year. I joined a club where they hold competitions so just trying to get something going. I have been shooting at a local 100yrd range for the last few months cause i havent found a suitable load to make the drive to shoot 500yrds yet. Time is running out before the cold hits here in Pa.
Try a 95gr sierra MK. 39.5gr H4350, winchester brass, winchester large rifle primers and seated to 2.790" this was just enough to feed from the internal box mag of my old R700. Shot a 1/3" group at 100.
Where in PA?
Where in PA?
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