Remington 1903 “Style T” with Unertl Scope question

[LunaCustomGuns]

LGS has a Remington 1903 “Style T” for sale. Sprterized stock, heavy barrel, Lyman peep, Unertl Scope included. Good shape, asking $2k.

I don’t know much about this variant, so I wanted to bounce it off you guys. Is this fair? Does anything look off to you? What questions I should ask?

Thanks

 

[Mister Ridge]

Scope is a Lyman, not a Unertl. Beyond that, it appears to be a pretty typical sporterized 1903. That being the case, I'd say they're asking about twice what it's worth.

 

[cplnorton]

The biggest thing I think that determines value on something like this, is if it was done by the Military or not. I think this is a commerial creation and I don't think there is really much of a chance the Army would have built something like this that late in M1903 history. By the time Remington's came out, the Army was done with the M1903. And I can say without a doubt the Marines didnt build this either. I imagine some commercial gunsmith put this together back in the 50's or 60's as a nice target rifle.

I sure it's a heck of a shooter. But there isn't any real collector value here. It's basically worth the sum of the parts.

I agree, its worth about half their asking price.

 

[pmclaine]

Something doesnt look right about the front band or the finish at the tip of the stock.

Not enough knowledge to give definitive answer but that in addition to the finish of the bluing has me thinking this needs further research.

Cpl Norton is right Remington built war guns they would not be building a "T" that would be SA.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

I appreciate your replies, and agree that something feels off. The Lyman sight is in great condition and worth a little bit on its own but I have a feeling this was built to resemble a rare rifle so is really worth the sum of its parts. I would think if it really was a rare variant the serial number would be documented.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

Something doesnt look right about the front band or the finish at the tip of the stock.

Not enough knowledge to give definitive answer but that in addition to the finish of the bluing has me thinking this needs further research.

Cpl Norton is right Remington built war guns they would not be building a "T" that would be SA.

So after a fair amount of digging and consulting various sources I have come to the conclusion that this is a put together made to resemble a style T and therefore inflate the value for an unsuspecting buyer.

Remington never made style T rifles, only Springfield did and those are well documented by the DCM, serial numbers and all. In fact in the book "The collectable 1903" the author states that he has never seen an unmodified Style T. When I went to look at the rifle in person I noticed immediately that the lyman sight, while mint, was not correct (original Style T sights did not have the deer and reticle marking), and there were zero cartouche and armory marks on the stock. It is entirely possible that the barrel is an original style T which would add back in some value but I don't know enough about how many heavy barrels were produced over the life time of the rifle, so more research is needed.

What I have discovered through all this is I REALLY enjoy the hunt! Milsurp is something I have wanted to get in to and this confirms it, the research etc. has been a blast!

 

[pmclaine]

These were working living rifles for shooters after the war.

Competitions were popular and well attended.

Lots of very nice rifles were produced in home brew shops or expensive custom houses.

Not made to defraud but to shoot.

Possible someone wanted a T and not being able to afford one this was his honest effort.

My local shop gets lots of estate guns. He had a few A3s in recently that had been barreled with Browning M1918 mg surplus barrels. Cool as hell.

Those guys were competitors.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

Good call, I would have never ever thought about it from that angle as far as original intent of the original owner.

Unfortunately in this case the gun was bought as a style T from a show as an investment and now LGS is advertising it specifically as a legit style T, and someone that does not know any better may over pay.

 

[pmclaine]

Shame if they screw somebody but how much due diligence did it take you to save a bundle of cash?

Wasnt that hard was it?

 

[sandwarrior]

I'd have to agree with pmc. Not intended to defraud at all, rather made to compete with. A long time ago, when I thought they would never end, I did the same to a few Mausers. I bought a first year production Savage 1899 in .250-3000 that someone had side drilled and tapped for a tip-off Packmyr scope mount. Not a competition rifle, but the collectibility was kind of shot. But, it made it a better hunting rifle. I realize it's kind of going the other way than the OP, but FWIW, modifications were made to rifles all over the place back then. And the "special" guns weren't sought after the way they are today. Makes a lot of sense someone would maybe prefer their own scope on a competition rifle like that as opposed to what the military might have on there.

 

[RTH1800]

This rifle does not appear to have the 30” bull barrel of the T

 

[Dan M]

The receiver being a Remington is the biggest tell that it isn’t the genuine article...according to Brophy the last M1903 Style T heavy barrel was sold in March of 1935 as found in the 1935 fiscal year report for Springfield Armory.

 

[cplnorton]

Now one thing to add, what seemed to be sort of the downfall of the T was the commercial WRA's of the time. It seems in the Army and Marine docs that once the Model 54 and then especially when the Model 70 Target came out that the heavy barrel M1903's seem to fade away.

There were other heavy barrel M1903 builds other than the T. But they really seem to be mostly gone out of style by the late 30's, once the Model 70 was common.