Gunsmithing Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

[trobertson5-0]

I was in a local shop and an older fellow was looking at a bunch of Remington 700 rifles on the rack and he was dry firing all of them and watching the degree in which the bolt handle jumped or moved at the release of the firing pin. They all moved different amounts and when he got to one that had very little movement he stated "Now that's a good one" and bought the rifle.

It got me to thinking as all my Remingtons have some movement and my most expensive build by a respected builder here on the Hide has BY FAR the most "jump".

So Gunsmiths, was this guy acting out on a weird OCD thing or is there something to it? Thanks in advance, TJR

 

[glock24]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Same question here. I have two SPS-Ts, one with almost no "jump" and one that almost cocks itself after each shot.

Assuming more movement is bad, how is it rectified?

 

[gamma]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Its got to do with the amount of clearance between the bolt and the barrel, when the spring pressure is released the bolt has that much play on front of it to move. Its not a problem, as you'll notice if you try it with a spent shell, theres no movement at all.

 

[glock24]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Makes sense.

Thanks

 

[cmh2007]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

i have noticed mine does it when no snap cap is in the chamber, but never made any bones about it

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Its caused by the tolerances between the bolt and the receiver being loose, and there being no rearward pressure form a round in the chamber. There's upward pressure on the rear of the bolt when cocked with no case in the chamber.

When it dry fires, the pressure holding the bolt up releases.

Try it with a case in the chamber. It wont move.


It has little to no effect on accuracy that I've noticed. They all move some. I count *any* movement as movement. Some "jump" pretty bad, while others like mine, just twitch.

 

[Dans40X]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

B.S.
Not even a politically correct guess...

Bolt Timing Issues.
Bolt Handle is improperly located on bolt body allowing firing pin
striker to hit aft end of bolt body upon pin release.

 

[Michael]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Dan, you gotta explain that one to me, I'm in the "Bolt Bodies fer Dummies" class.
If there's no buffer spring forward of the striker, what would prevent the pin from striking the rear of the bolt face on each release?

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B.S.
Not even a politically correct guess...

Bolt Timing Issues.
Bolt Handle is improperly located on bolt body allowing firing pin
striker to hit aft end of bolt body upon pin release.
</div></div>

Purely a self serving statement. I suppose if someone posted that they had a sticky magazine release your diagnosis would be a poorly placed bolt handle.

 

[JJones75]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

[/quote]
Purely a self serving statement. I suppose if someone posted that they had a sticky magazine release your diagnosis would be a poorly placed bolt handle. [/quote]

LOL , ya know what they say about picking who you argue with

 

[Dans40X]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

No,just stating a FACT.

After you've properly timed several thousand more bolts/handles/firing pins let me know!!

Some prefer to BS customers into believing a TACtiCOOL bolt knob & a lighter/heavier sprung firing pin is the cure all.
Wrong.
PM's answered.

 

[NY700]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

I had some bolt handle jump on my 700. Turned out to be the stock. There wasnt enough clearance where the handle came to rest, so little to my knowledge when i closed th ebolt it wasnt all the way closed. removed a few thousandths of an inch of the inlet of the stock and poof no more handle jump dry fire or live.

 

[trobertson5-0]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No,just stating a FACT.

After you've properly timed several thousand more bolts/handles/firing pins let me know!!

Some prefer to BS customers into believing a TACtiCOOL bolt knob & a lighter/heavier sprung firing pin is the cure all.
Wrong.
PM's answered. </div></div>

So to clarify without adding to the urinating contest,does the bolt jump create any problem other than the bolt handle jumping? I have tried with a snap cap and as was stated by others it stopped the jump,is there another hidden problem the problems you say are causing this bring out?

I am not saying you or the other smith who responded are right,I don't know either way,I just want to know it the bolt timing issues create their own problem or just the bolt jump. Thanks in advance. TJR

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No,just stating a FACT.

After you've properly timed several thousand more bolts/handles/firing pins let me know!!

Some prefer to BS customers into believing a TACtiCOOL bolt knob & a lighter/heavier sprung firing pin is the cure all.
Wrong.
PM's answered. </div></div>

Yet again, another self serving statement. You should probably pay closer attention to what you're reading. At what point in the original post did it mention anything about bolt knobs and firing pin springs? You've beat this to death, ad nauseum. So you can weld a little, so what? This doesn't give you the credentials to treat guys on here like crap. AZPrecision was basing his response on his experience and you based yours on the fact that you can't seem to not act like a Sphincter. Riddle me this: If your response is true, would the cocking piece hit the back of the bolt body with a round in the chamber? Does the answer to this question invalidate what AZPrecision said? Does this have anything to do with your soapbox about knobs and springs?

 

[gamma]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B.S.
Not even a politically correct guess...

Bolt Timing Issues.
Bolt Handle is improperly located on bolt body allowing firing pin
striker to hit aft end of bolt body upon pin release.
</div></div>

Purely a self serving statement. I suppose if someone posted that they had a sticky magazine release your diagnosis would be a poorly placed bolt handle. </div></div>
I agree 100% with Mike on this one and I think Mike will agree with my statement, its to do with the the clearance between the bolt and the barrel and if a snap cap is placed inside it dosent happen as it has nowhere to go with the support from the snap cap. Absolutely nothing to do with bolt handle timing, nothing.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trobertson5-0</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No,just stating a FACT.

After you've properly timed several thousand more bolts/handles/firing pins let me know!!

Some prefer to BS customers into believing a TACtiCOOL bolt knob & a lighter/heavier sprung firing pin is the cure all.
Wrong.
PM's answered. </div></div>

So to clarify without adding to the urinating contest,does the bolt jump create any problem other than the bolt handle jumping? I have tried with a snap cap and as was stated by others it stopped the jump,is there another hidden problem the problems you say are causing this bring out?

I am not saying you or the other smith who responded are right,I don't know either way,I just want to know it the bolt timing issues create their own problem or just the bolt jump. Thanks in advance. TJR </div></div>

With respect to your original question, bolt handle timing can and does create it's own issues, and can contribute to bolt jump, but it certainly isn't the sole reason a bolt jumps. What AZPrecision and Gamma stated largely contribute to bolt jump and just because a bolt jumps without a snap cap/round in the chamber doesn't mean the rifle should be sent to Alaska. I apologize to you for calling out someone on your post, but his attack was not necessary.

 

[gamma]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Nicely put Mike, I think that pretty much puts this debate into solid reasoning. Anyone here that wasnt sure before, well lets just say they know now.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Not directed at anyone, just saying..

When a bolt handle jumps after dry firing there are several factors that contributed to it. In a nut shell it's a timing issue but not only with the handle. The striker position in relation to the cocking ramp may also be playing a role. As the striker is released from the trigger sear bar and starts its striking motion, if it contacts the cocking ramp on the way down it could cause some handle movement. When locating / timing a bolt handle it is done so with primary extraction in mind since that is its main purpose in life but other things are affected as well.

Striker to Sear Bar handoff and Striker to Shroud revile on cocked are two additional areas that one must consider. When bolt handle timing is mentioned there's really more to it than just welding a handle on. As a whole, most factory offerings aren’t even close.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not directed at anyone, just saying..

When a bolt handle jumps after dry firing there are several factors that contributed to it. In a nut shell it's a timing issue but not only with the handle. The striker position in relation to the cocking ramp may also be playing a role. As the striker is released from the trigger sear bar and starts its striking motion, if it contacts the cocking ramp on the way down it could cause some handle movement. When locating / timing a bolt handle it is done so with primary extraction in mind since that is its main purpose in life but other things are affected as well.

Striker to Sear Bar handoff and Striker to Shroud revile on cocked are two additional areas that one must consider. When bolt handle timing is mentioned there's really more to it than just welding a handle on. As a whole, most factory offerings aren’t even close.
</div></div>

+1. Very round statement. I've re-located many factory handles and as you mention, primary extraction was the primary reason. It contributes to reducing bolt jump, but not eliminating it. Numerous factors are involved and this subject can and probably has seen much debate. In regards to the OP, less jump is certainly better, but just because it jumps doesn't mean it won't shoot.

 

[Criver600]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

I have two Remington actioned rifles with zero jump when you dry fire. Both have been to Greg Tannel & Accu-tig.

 

[trobertson5-0]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your input. I think my question has been answered quite well. The rifle I was talking about is a .5 shooter and would be better with a better driver I am sure. Obviously it is not effecting the accuracy of this rifle too much.
The guy in the gun shop just got me thinking and I figured I would ask the experts.

Again, thanks to all.

 

[JJones75]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

a whole lot more goes into accuracy than bolt timing , I've seen guys pick guns with a tuning fork rung on the barrel even go so far as to get a caliber other than what they first intended.

Maybe his line of thought was that this weapon had a little more care put into its assembly

 

[jasonixo]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Dans40x's statement corresponds with what I have been taught. If the bolt timing is out, the bolt plug interferes with the receiver slot, causing feedback in the form of bolt jump. Depending on the degree of interference, it can cause problems.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Well I've never seen one that doesnt move, so I guess no rifle I've ever dry fired was timed right. Owned quite a few from GAP, a Kodiak precision, played with some Mcmillans... all move when a case is not in the chamber.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bolt Handle is improperly located on bolt body allowing firing pin striker to hit aft end of bolt body upon pin release.
</div></div>

Can you explain this?

Are you talking about the cocking piece hitting the rear end of the bolt body?

Mine doesnt contact the bolt body and it "jumps" a tiny bit. I think mines better than most, but it still moves. Like I said, never seen one that doesnt move(on a Remy)

And are you saying my explanation doesn't make it move and that your reason is the only one? Or might my reason be a reason too?

Educate me.


And Dan, no one was trying to sell bolt knobs or firing pin assemblies there buddy. I have my own thread for that

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Based on Newton's first and third laws of motion, they're going to move whether timed right or not. There was nothing wrong with your original statement about this.

Bottom line, the FP creates inertia when it travels forward and that inertia has to be bled off when the FP is acted upon by an outside force. In this case, the back of the bolt body (with no round in the chamber). The bolt body will want to travel in the same direction, but for obvious reasons, it can't. So it moves in a direction of no/least resistance. Movement is reduced with correct bolt timing but correct bolt timing does not defy simple physics.

Thanks for your input Keith....

 

[gamma]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

While Dans self serving statement is very correct here, its not the full extent of the problem, the tolerance between the bolt face and the barrel are the actual reason for the jump and when the trigger's rearward pressure is released during dry firing,it allows the bolt to take up the slack of these tolerances. A correctly timed bolt will hide this as will the pressure of the snap cap or a case thats just been fired. Dan is right but he's not all right. Happy Christmas Dan, hope this gets you lots of work in 2010, you could also start selling snap caps if it dosent.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Thank you for yours sir.

I wish I could have known about timing causing this....


and about that, if every bolt/rifle I've seen does that to some degree, how is it that no rifle is timed well enough to eliminate it? If it was as cut and dry as just bolt timing, it think it would be less common.


In my mind if every one in the country is "broke", they ain't "broke". I like Remys no matter how loose they are

 

[trobertson5-0]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I've never seen one that doesnt move, so I guess no rifle I've ever dry fired was timed right. Owned quite a few from GAP, a Kodiak precision, played with some Mcmillans... all move when a case is not in the chamber.
</div></div>

I know the bolt has to move slightly when the striker releases. Foward and a slight rearward rebound would strike me as normal. Remington cannot overcome Newtons laws, timed properly or not. The bolt handle jump I was refering to is an upward motion like the rifle is trying to unlock and cock itself. That is the part I find unusual. Strangely I checked a few of my rifles and found stock contact with the bolt handle as a previous poster stated. A few minutes with a dremel and it stopped 95% of the jump I was talking about.

 

[Hooper]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not directed at anyone, just saying..

The striker position in relation to the cocking ramp may also be playing a role. As the striker is released from the trigger sear bar and starts its striking motion, if it contacts the cocking ramp on the way down it could cause some handle movement.
</div></div>

+1

Also, I have seen many Remington's bolt handle touch the stock when closed not allowing the bolt to be in full closed rotation where it would be when the handle bottomed out on the reciever.

One shooter here was experiencing erratic groupings and the handle to stock issue was to blame.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

I thought about it hitting that cam(the cocking cam), but that forces the handle down, not up. I know it would still move, but not "jump".

So its safe to say theres many things that can cause it and not just bolt timing? I wanna make sure I have a good, what was it Dan?, "politically correct guess"

and back to bolt handle timing being the purely correct answer Dan, why is that a handle being a few thou off is the only correct answer? You should tell Remington they need you to weld all their bolt handles. Tell em how many you've done they'll be impressed.

 

[msiebert]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

Definately not trying to jump in the middle of all this urine blasting around but....any of you guys ever seen that bolt shroud made by a company called Crawford Engineering??? It had a set screw on either side that adjusted all the movement out of a jumping bolt shroud. Not saying it worked or didn't, and I dont even think they are still in bussiness. Seems to me that you want to eliminate any or as much movement during the lock time "dwell" as possible. This may or may not be a "self serving" statement but anyone that dont like it can get over it...or not.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on Newton's first and third laws of motion, they're going to move whether timed right or not. </div></div>

I see that you were listening when I was talking about Sir Issac Newton and the third law. The first applies as well.

First Law;

"An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. <span style="font-weight: bold">An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force</span>."


Third Law;
"<span style="font-weight: bold">For every action there is an equal or oposite reaction</span>"

Think about it..........even in a perfect world, a bolt handle is going to move if dry fired on an empty chamber. If it doesn’t do so it defies the laws of physics.

If someone calls BS on this maybe they can also disprove Albert Einstein’s theory on Relativity.........

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Remington 700 bolt handle"JUMP"??

These laws were fully understood a number of years ago while in flight school and were part of the numerous principles that explain why a helicopter flies. They obviousy apply to anything that moves and has mass....