Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primer Misfires

[mattwashington]

I usually buy CCI primers, but they were unavailable so I decided to give Remington a try. I loaded 50 rounds in my .260 and took them to the range. I had 3 misfires out of 50. Pretty good indentation on the primer too. Has anyone else had problems with Remington primers?

 

[Dan Newberry]

I have not seen Remington primers fail, but then again they're not as commonly used as CCI and Federal around here.

What we have seen (and I do see thousands of rounds fired every month) is this:

CCI primers failed on more than a few occasions. In each case, I asked the shooter to let me check the rounds that didn't fire. The primers did have compound in them, but the issue was the cup was too shallow. It was .005" more shallow than it should have been. The norm would be .125" or so in thickness, and these were .120".

I saw the same thing happen last Friday with Hornady factory Superformance 30-06 ammo. I took the two rounds apart... plenty of powder in these 180 grain SST loads (60.0 grains of Superformance powder, it turned out), and the primers--Winchester WLR's in this case, were too shallow, just like the CCI's that we'd seen before.

I don't know what primers Black Hills is using these days. They were plated, so I didn't think they were Winchesters... maybe CCI's also. But I saw the same issue with about four rounds out of 120 (6 boxes) of Black Hills ammo.

Some folks aren't too willing to admit we have a primer QC issue, but those who are doing a lot of shooting and/or seeing a lot of shooting will readily tell you, it's unfortunately not as uncommon as it once was.

I would be interested to learn if the RP primers are also shallow. Compare the thickness of a good primer to the thickness of the ones which didn't fire. When you remove those bad primers, be careful punching them out. Wear good eye protection, and shield the press well when you punch 'em... but see if they're shallow.

Dan

 

[gimpy]

I noticed you are in Montana. How cold was it during this shooting session? Cold will wreak havoc on ignition.

 

[K_4c]

Hey buddy, be aware that your .260 has an adjustable firing pin.... I'd personally contact Marty at BO and ask him the exact dimension required for proper ignition. I had to play with mine once I put a Tubb speed lock spring kit in it (helped a little with the bolt uplift).... super easy to fix.

best of luck bud

 

[Clark]

In 1995 an engineer died.
His 200 pounds of reloading stuff sat in boxes in another engineer's garage until 2007 when it was given to me.
There were a couple thousand Rem 9 1/2 rifle primers in there, and non of them have misfired for me.

Probably a different date code than you have.... June 1991.


But I have been having misfires with magnum small rifle primer CCI550 in 260 with CFE223 powder, any charge over 40 gr.
It just cannot set them off.

But you are probably using large primer 260 cases.

 

[mattwashington]

I noticed you are in Montana. How cold was it during this shooting session? Cold will wreak havoc on ignition.

It was a little chilly. About 15F.

 

[mattwashington]

Hey buddy, be aware that your .260 has an adjustable firing pin.... I'd personally contact Marty at BO and ask him the exact dimension required for proper ignition. I had to play with mine once I put a Tubb speed lock spring kit in it (helped a little with the bolt uplift).... super easy to fix.

best of luck bud

Thanks bud, I'll give that a try.

 

[andydrose72]

Mattwashington were did you get your primers? I got 1000 from scheels in billings this summer and went through a spell with failure to fires. I think it was around 15 out of 200 rounds that didn't go. Can't explain it but I find it odd someone else in Montana is having the same issue with them. They are working fine now. I cleaned my bolt greased the insides thinking it may have been that. Still happened. Reset my sizing die thinking maybe had too much head space and it still happened. And now about the last 500 have fires with no issue. I don't get it.0

 

[mattwashington]

Mattwashington were did you get your primers? I got 1000 from scheels in billings this summer and went through a spell with failure to fires. I think it was around 15 out of 200 rounds that didn't go. Can't explain it but I find it odd someone else in Montana is having the same issue with them. They are working fine now. I cleaned my bolt greased the insides thinking it may have been that. Still happened. Reset my sizing die thinking maybe had too much head space and it still happened. And now about the last 500 have fires with no issue. I don't get it.0

I also picked these up from Scheels. Could be a bad batch?? I'm sure the QC on primers has gone down being that everyone is producing them as fast as possible.

 

[buffybuster]

-It is possible some Large RIFLE primers made to the Large PISTOL primer dimensions. That difference would make them shallow in the primer pocket.
-Another possibility is the primer pocket being over aggressively uniformed.
-If the case headspace is excessive that can result in misfires.
-The primer could be bad, but I would investigate the above causes before jumping to a bad primer.

 

[andydrose72]

I fully understand your point but I am leaning towards bad primers as I use these in a hunting rifle that I don't even bother uniforming primer pockets. Don't really see the point in wasting time in a gun that I don't shoot over 500 yards and holds about 3/4 moa.

 

[mattwashington]

I compared the fired remington primers to some fired CCI primers fired out of my 300 win mag, which I've never had a misfire, and it definitely looks like my firing pin can be adjusted out a few thousandths. I'm leaning towards minor firing pin adjustments and not bad primers. Thanks for the replies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BuzzBoss915]

All of this is news to me as far as bad primers. I can honestly say, I have never had a failure, and I won't bother to tell you the exact scope of that statement; but it's a long time and lots of spent primers.

But, what is bothering me is, I just bought 5,000 Remington 9 1/2 which is something I seldom use, but they were available and with the panic buying these days, I thought it might be good insurance....but only if they are reliable. And, that's something I never considered. If you keep your oily fingers off the primer, I have always felt that I could trust my life to ignition. Damn, don't make me worry about something that is just a rumor. Or is it? BB

 

[aussiek2000]

To the OP, I've have the same problem. Loaded 200 rounds with Rem 9 1/2, and at least 20 did not go off. Loaded 200 the same way with CCI 200, and they all went off. I tossed the rest of my Remington primers in a box to be used in desperate times it need be.

 

[Dan Newberry]

As I mentioned earlier... if you'll measure the depth of the primer cup of the primers that did not fire, you'll probably find they're shallow. I wouldn't have my rifle altered unless or until I'd checked the primers. I went thru some CCI's that had this issue, and found 3 or 4 in a box of 100 from the same lot number that were about .005" thinner than the others. Large Rifle Primers that work are about .125" thick, and the ones that failed were .120"... a couple even .119"...

 

[former naval person]

As Dan says...you may even have large pistol primers misboxed.

 

[mattwashington]

As I mentioned earlier... if you'll measure the depth of the primer cup of the primers that did not fire, you'll probably find they're shallow. I wouldn't have my rifle altered unless or until I'd checked the primers. I went thru some CCI's that had this issue, and found 3 or 4 in a box of 100 from the same lot number that were about .005" thinner than the others. Large Rifle Primers that work are about .125" thick, and the ones that failed were .120"... a couple even .119"...

I measured a few of the primers. All were around the .125" range. I believe adjusting the firing pin will eliminate the misfires.

 

[Dan Newberry]

10-4... that's good to hear. Let's hope that'll take care of things for you. If they're around .125" they should be GTG

 

[dmike]

I measured a few of the primers. All were around the .125" range. I believe adjusting the firing pin will eliminate the misfires.

I have gone through about 600 Rem 9 1/2 primers in the past 4 months and just had my first dud. It was in a Savage 10 FCP (308). Tried twice. The pin strike looks deep, I have it and can post a pic if it helps. Should we be noting lot numbers on this thread in case the factory had a bad run?

 

[dmike]

Just had 7 more duds. Box was stamped "2144". Primers measured about .130" deep. I keep them dry in a Tupperware box, I loaded 20 rounds about 3 months ago and only 13 of them fired in my R700. Good strikes, no issues with M80, FGMM, or Federal 210 primers in the same rifle.

 

[Steve1]

I went through a period of misfires due to a dirty bolt. If you cleaned your bolt, maybe there is still some crud left in there.

There's more than one way to clean a bolt. I took an appropriately sized wire brush on an electric drill. I put some solvent on in and brushed the inside of the bolt thoroughly. Then I used some dry patches to get any residues of solvent out of there. That solved the problem.

Ever since I've been leary of putting oil or anything else on the inside of the bolt. It is a dirt magnet. It will also freeze up in really cold weather. I've heard of hunters carrying their bolt around in their pocket to keep it from freezing up. You don't have to do that if you have a clean dry bolt.

 

[dmike]

I went through a period of misfires due to a dirty bolt. If you cleaned your bolt, maybe there is still some crud left in there.

There's more than one way to clean a bolt. I took an appropriately sized wire brush on an electric drill. I put some solvent on in and brushed the inside of the bolt thoroughly. Then I used some dry patches to get any residues of solvent out of there. That solved the problem.

Ever since I've been leary of putting oil or anything else on the inside of the bolt. It is a dirt magnet. It will also freeze up in really cold weather. I've heard of hunters carrying their bolt around in their pocket to keep it from freezing up. You don't have to do that if you have a clean dry bolt.

This batch of primers has misfired in two different rifles, one R700 and one Savage 10FCP...both new within the past 6 months and both with less than 500 rounds. Did you look at the strikes? I am not an expert but they seem fairly deep to me. The same R700 has been setting off milsurp and Federal primers without any issues.

 

[Steve1]

If it's happening in two different rifles it might be a bad batch of primers.....I've just never had problems with primers. I have some Remington primers, but I usually load CCI.

The primer strikes seemed deep enough to me, on my misfires, but they didn't go bang at times.

You mentioned putting some type of grease on your firing pin and inside of your bolt. Did both rifles have the same lube? Could there be a build up of this inside both bolts?

 

[dmike]

Anyone want some free primers? Loaded up a few this weekend to see if my luck had changed:


10 rounds factory: 0 failures
94 rounds F210 primer: 0 failures
15 rounds R9.5 primer: 7 failures

These things are garbage

 

[dmike]

You mentioned putting some type of grease on your firing pin and inside of your bolt. Did both rifles have the same lube? Could there be a build up of this inside both bolts?

Steve1, sorry I missed your question earlier. I don't grease the pin at all, it's dry. I just lube the lugs.

 

[lte82]

Anyone want some free primers? Loaded up a few this weekend to see if my luck had changed:


10 rounds factory: 0 failures
94 rounds F210 primer: 0 failures
15 rounds R9.5 primer: 7 failures

These things are garbage

Are the primers failing to go off or is the primer failing to ignite the powder?

 

[dmike]

Are the primers failing to go off or is the primer failing to ignite the powder?

they're not reacting/detonating in any way

 

[lte82]

they're not reacting/detonating in any way

Wow, that's no good. Want to mail me a 100 of them for comparison to my box of Rem 9 1/2s?

 

[rduckwor]

I've only shot a few test round with the Remington LR primers, but have had no issues so far.

I did note that they seemed much more consistent in my hands than did the CCI equivalent. Lower SD and ES in my test groups (308W).

Some of the pix in this thread seem to depict what appears to be to be a light strike on the failed primers. Given that the others appear to have worked and show a more solid strike from the FP, I lean toward Dan's theory of primer mix-up. Today, I would believe that it is conceivable that some LR and LP primer got mixed in the same lot somehow and made it to the field. The mania to produce components may have led to who know what!

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Okay, Houston, we have a problem. BUT, I have to say, it simply does not compute; "these things are garbage."

Remington has state of the art equipment and competent lawyers, and I can't believe they are shipping defective primers. Well over 100 years of experience, millions of primers, if not billions. They also have a competent Quality Control Department.

My snap judgement, IF this is actually bad primers and not something else that can CAUSE a primer failure, is it is comparable, statistically to being struck by a meteor. BB

 

[rduckwor]

My snap judgement, IF this is actually bad primers and not something else that can CAUSE a primer failure, is it is comparable, statistically to being struck by a meteor. BB

Well, we could hope so. However, given the pressure to get primers and other components to the market, the expansion of some manufacturers, report of other components becoming problematic, this seems to me to be the most likely explanation. Aside for this theory, maybe something is intermittently hindering the full travel of his FP (debris) etc).

 

[BuzzBoss915]

" it is conceivable that some LR and LP primer got mixed in the same lot"

The problem with this explain is (in all likelihood) a mislabeled primer will still detonate, albeit a different intensity level, and possibly being pierced as in a thinner cup. I do not see it likely that mislabeled primers of the same diameter will not detonate. Possibly if it were reversed, a large rifle primer installed in a handgun cartridge might produce a dud, but we aren't talking about that. BB

 

[dmike]

Today, I would believe that it is conceivable that some LR and LP primer got mixed in the same lot somehow and made it to the field. The mania to produce components may have led to who know what!

cup depth is the same on all primers, I don't think it's a LR/LP mixup.

 

[dmike]

Wow, that's no good. Want to mail me a 100 of them for comparison to my box of Rem 9 1/2s?

You're welcome to them but I don't think I can mail them?

I don't buy the light strike theory. This is a 3-month old factory fresh R700 with no lube on the pin, fired in clean environments. The Savage that they misfired in was also new. These are clean strikes. You shouldn't have to hit them harder than that to get them to go.

 

[rduckwor]

cup depth is the same on all primers, I don't think it's a LR/LP mixup.

I think that LR primers are slightly longer (deeper cups) than LP primers.

 

[former naval person]

Considering that this seems to be a singular problem...might be a storage problem with your chain of supply.

 

[dmike]

I think that LR primers are slightly longer (deeper cups) than LP primers.

I meant on all of the primers in question. Mine

 

[rduckwor]

I meant on all of the primers in question. Mine

Good point.

I have four types of LR primers in house. I will try to remember to get some measurements today.

 

[rduckwor]

O.K. I have four LR primers in house. None are match, all are standard. Here are the height measurements (base of cup to edge) with my calipers:

Federal - 0.125"
Wolf - 0.1255"
CCI (200) - 0.125"
Remington - 0.131"

 

[dmike]

Considering that this seems to be a singular problem...might be a storage problem with your chain of supply.

Chain of supply: 10/2013 ordered 3000 from Cabela's online, stored in tupperware container.

 

[former naval person]

Before you, and maybe at/or before Cabela's. Heat, damp, who knows?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Not convinced. Reasonable storage in original containers should be good for decades. I could see, if you set them on a ledge, out on the porch, in Seattle, or Aberdeen. Other than that, indoors, under conditions humans would find comfortable, reasonably protected; primer shelf life is going to be virtually unlimited. I think Tupperware is overkill. BB

 

[dmike]

Not convinced. Reasonable storage in original containers should be good for decades. I could see, if you set them on a ledge, out on the porch, in Seattle, or Aberdeen. Other than that, indoors, under conditions humans would find comfortable, reasonably protected; primer shelf life is going to be virtually unlimited. I think Tupperware is overkill. BB

Thanks BB, good to know. They're in the garage. Humidity in VA ranges from 40-90's I think.

 

[therichardpowell]

Before I started reloading, a friend loaded me 100 rounds for my 30-06. I went to the range and shot 20 rds and had 3 not fire. He took them back and mentioned he was having issues as well. He shoots enough that I would assume he bought them new, but I don't have any background on them.

 

[bigedp51]

Below is the photo of the OPs primers, the primer hits look a little wimpy and the red arrow shows the bolt left rub marks on the primer. This indicates the primers were not seated properly when they should be .006 to .008 below the surface.

The only time I have ever had a misfire was caused by a dirty bolt no matter who made the primers and I use Remington 9 1/2 and 7 1/2 primers.

What I see in common with the OP and dmike photos are weak hits and lapua brass.

Below is how a properly seated primer should look and the anvil under preload. (slight primer crush)

 

[DanSavage]

Below is the photo of the OPs primers, the primer hits look a little wimpy and the red arrow shows the bolt left rub marks on the primer. This indicates the primers were not seated properly when they should be .006 to .008 below the surface.

The only time I have ever had a misfire was caused by a dirty bolt no matter who made the primers and I use Remington 9 1/2 and 7 1/2 primers.

What I see in common with the OP and dmike photos are weak hits and lapua brass.

Below is how a properly seated primer should look and the anvil under preload. (slight primer crush)

Look at the one in the middle, looks like the pin barely even hit. Almost looks like a shotgun firing pin indentation on the outside shells, I'd say its possible the primer pockets could be too deep and the firing pin may be pushing them in, but why the bolt rub marks on the red arrow one.

 

[dmike]

What I see in common with the OP and dmike photos are weak hits and lapua brass.

FGMM brass too. And is this a weak hit? This is a dud from a few weeks ago

 

[DanSavage]

FGMM brass too. And is this a weak hit? This is a dud from a few weeks ago

Jeeze it don't look like a weak hit,,darn primers anway!

 

[rduckwor]

Looks like a solid hit to me as well. The middle primer in the pix several post above is definitely a light strike.

 

[oldfudd]

A shooting buddy and I have had similar misfires with Winchester LR primers (different lot numbers) in 308 cases (FGMM and LC cases). All misfires indicated strong firing pin strikes. Some of the ones that fired evidenced gas escaping between the primer and cartridge primer pocket, which led to some scoring of bolt faces. All were seated to a correct low depth with no resulting overpressured indications, and have occured in both Savage and M1A1 rifles. All primer pockets had been prepared using Sinclair depth cutting tools tools. We've all gotten rid of these Winchester LR primers, and for the most part have gone to CCI with no further problems.